Is High End Audio Gear Worth the Money?

[TonyW]

I think these days I have become an Engineer/Philosopher. Although I believe most engineers are like that. On the one hand an Engineer must abide by absolutes. Being right enriches people's lives but being wrong can bring catastrophe. The philosopher side is our pressure relief valve because it is abstract and therefore has no right or wrong. But over time some abstract concepts can develop into ideas and then into products.

The concept of value is abstract. The engineer side of us wants to quantify value based on concrete terms like costs of material, development, overhead, etc and ultimately performance and reliability.. But the market determines value in different ways. When left brain people say a 1/4 million dollar speaker is not worth it, they miss the point entirely. When a right brain musician buys a coveted musical instrument for a 1/4 million dollars they are thrilled and people admire them for it. I was watching a PBS special in the 1980s of a concert featuring a renowned flutist . After the concert the interviewer handed the flutist a cheap recorder and asked him to play a tune. He made that recorder sound amazing. Could it replace his expensive, very special flute? Of course not.

 

[Elliot G.]

Knowledge is more important than money in achieving good sound. The best systems I have ever heard are all DIY projects, or at least involve a substantial amount of DIY input. And the most expensive system I have ever heard sounded so bad that my friend, on hearing a well-known recording of his wife's mentor and close friend (his wife is a top professional singer), could not even recognize her voice. Personally, I really only achieved a satisfactory level of sound quality after I put together my own speakers and amplification. This is because I could tweak the design and components to improve the sound over time, and to make each component work well with the others and with the acoustic environment. The most expensive equipment means nothing if it fails to harmonize with the rest of the system. For me, it is not so much the cost of the equipment but its design and implementation. If it achieves what I want, the cheaper the better.

The best audio systems do require knowledge that is very true. I am not sure what you mean by DIY but if it is the work and ability to set up the equipment and take care of the room anomalies then I would agree if it is to design your own gear then I would not. Audio is equal parts gear and equal part knowledge and efforts. If you do not know how to do both then you will most likely come up short of getting the true value of the system.
Everyone seems to know how yet very few are satisfied, why is that? Its the same in most things that require experience and skill. I can buy a grand piano but Ill never play at Carnegie Hall. I won't be able to tune the Piano but I can write the check. Audio requires effort, knowledge and money. I find that people forget this and only think of it when its convenient, Shows are the perfect example. People's expectations are way to high. IMO its one of the Industry's great failures in that we do not present our best do to the factors of inadequate time and bad environments.
People spend what they want but not enough spend the adequate resources to get it to work at its best.

 

[TonyW]

The best audio systems do require knowledge that is very true. I am not sure what you mean by DIY but if it is the work and ability to set up the equipment and take care of the room anomalies then I would agree if it is to design your own gear then I would not. Audio is equal parts gear and equal part knowledge and efforts. If you do not know how to do both then you will most likely come up short of getting the true value of the system.
Everyone seems to know how yet very few are satisfied, why is that? Its the same in most things that require experience and skill. I can buy a grand piano but Ill never play at Carnegie Hall. I won't be able to tune the Piano but I can write the check. Audio requires effort, knowledge and money. I find that people forget this and only think of it when its convenient, Shows are the perfect example. People's expectations are way to high. IMO its one of the Industry's great failures in that we do not present our best do to the factors of inadequate time and bad environments.
People spend what they want but not enough spend the adequate resources to get it to work at its best.

Most of us choose to be our own application engineer when it comes to our audio systems- with little to no training. Graduating from mid-fi where hooking up the cables correctly is the most crucial part to hifi is a big step. Hifi is not plug and play- that's for sure. No different than a high performance car where misadjustment or lack of driver training can quickly lead to catastrophe. Wrecking the hifi may not be deadly but can still be an expensive lesson.

 

[Audiohertz2]

Can’t say I’ve ever heard a DIY system that ever sounded compelling but that is only my set of data points

I can believe this to be true , just as much to say its very rare to hear a mega cost system sound compelling , mostly they are disappointing to anyone with a decent setup..

 

[Audiohertz2]

The best audio systems do require knowledge that is very true. I am not sure what you mean by DIY but if it is the work and ability to set up the equipment and take care of the room anomalies then I would agree if it is to design your own gear then I would not. Audio is equal parts gear and equal part knowledge and efforts. If you do not know how to do both then you will most likely come up short of getting the true value of the system.
Everyone seems to know how yet very few are satisfied, why is that? Its the same in most things that require experience and skill. I can buy a grand piano but Ill never play at Carnegie Hall. I won't be able to tune the Piano but I can write the check. Audio requires effort, knowledge and money. I find that people forget this and only think of it when its convenient, Shows are the perfect example. People's expectations are way to high. IMO its one of the Industry's great failures in that we do not present our best do to the factors of inadequate time and bad environments.
People spend what they want but not enough spend the adequate resources to get it to work at its best.

Expectations are high when you are choosing between a ( usually flawed ) loudspeaker or a Ferrari.

At current silly season prices the product has to deliver …

 

[TonyW]

Expectations are high when you are choosing between a ( usually flawed ) loudspeaker or a Ferrari.

At current silly season prices the product has to deliver …

I expect a product that I am about to buy to exceed my expectations. That's really the only way I am satisfied with a product. Meeting expectations- just like at work is not good enough.

 

[Elliot G.]

Most of us choose to be our own application engineer when it comes to our audio systems- with little to no training. Graduating from mid-fi where hooking up the cables correctly is the most crucial part to hifi is a big step. Hifi is not plug and play- that's for sure. No different than a high performance car where misadjustment or lack of driver training can quickly lead to catastrophe. Wrecking the hifi may not be deadly but can still be an expensive lesson.

Tony, that is exactly what I mean. Hooking up the cables correctly is only the beginning it is not anything more than that.
Understanding what is possible and how the room and the speakers interact and how to get the best from this is IMO the most important part of getting the music to be special. The recipe for success is not as simple as hooking things up correctly.
What I don't understand is how so many spend so much and are satisfied with the bare minimum.
You can give me the same kitchen and the recipe but I seriously doubt I can cook like Thomas Keller, maybe I could get lucky. The overwhelming number of rooms I go into and systems I hear and not installed and set up even close to their max. I find this sad since they have spent the money and yet they refuse to finish the job for some reason.
I believe that this is the High Ends fatal flaw and something that the Industry for the most part refuses to acknowledge and discuss.
If you need proof just go to any show, some can and most can't that is just the facts.

 

[Elliot G.]

Expectations are high when you are choosing between a ( usually flawed ) loudspeaker or a Ferrari.

At current silly season prices the product has to deliver …

who is making that choice? I've never met him. People who can afford buy what they want. I in 50 plus years ever had someone say they were choosing between a car and an audio system. You can find flaw in anything including a Ferrari

one thing I can say and I worked for Ferrari for two years is none of the owners tried setting up the cars themselves LOL

 

[TonyW]

Tony, that is exactly what I mean. Hooking up the cables correctly is only the beginning it is not anything more than that.
Understanding what is possible and how the room and the speakers interact and how to get the best from this is IMO the most important part of getting the music to be special. The recipe for success is not as simple as hooking things up correctly.
What I don't understand is how so many spend so much and are satisfied with the bare minimum.
You can give me the same kitchen and the recipe but I seriously doubt I can cook like Thomas Keller, maybe I could get lucky. The overwhelming number of rooms I go into and systems I hear and not installed and set up even close to their max. I find this sad since they have spent the money and yet they refuse to finish the job for some reason.
I believe that this is the High Ends fatal flaw and something that the Industry for the most part refuses to acknowledge and discuss.
If you need proof just go to any show, some can and most can't that is just the facts.

If you are ever nearby Atlanta I’d love to get your critique of my system. It might not be accolades but I can take it. I have three brothers and their opinions range from amazing to good to I like my Sony receiver better.

And criticism has always lead to improvements.

 

[Don Reid]

Whether high end audio equipment is worth the cost depends on how wisely you choose and how much money you have.

 

[TonyW]

If you are ever nearby Atlanta I’d love to get your critique of my system. It might not be accolades but I can take it. I have three brothers and their opinions range from amazing to good to I like my Sony receiver better.

And criticism has always lead to improvements.

Oh and my brother who said he likes his Sony better had me play some awful country song that brought him to tears. I should have asked him if his Sony receiver does that for him as well.

 

[Robh3606]

Can’t say I’ve ever heard a DIY system that ever sounded compelling but that is only my set of data points

By DIY are you saying any system not put together by a dealer?

Rob

 

[mtemur]

I'm sure if a smaller, more bespoke mfr made this table, it would not have the level of execution, and would probably cost 10k. Same for their 20k model.

So true. Actually there is one example exactly matches what you said about 20K Technics. And it is 200K SAT turntable.

 

[thedudeabides]

Therein lies the paradox Tony. You should have asked your brother. Assuming he could choose one, would it be the message or the messenger? Every time I listen to the second movement of Goreki's Symphony No. 3, I know what side I am on. Best.

 

[TonyW]

Therein lies the paradox Tony. You should have asked your brother. Assuming he could choose one, would it be the message or the messenger? Every time I listen to the second movement of Goreki's Symphony No. 3, I know what side I am on. Best.

Oh it’s the messenger, no question. Just compare a scene with Richard Burton to, well anyone else. Or some of Anthony Hopkins’ scenes.

Never got goosebumps from my car radio, only with my driving…

 

[Tinian]

It worths what we make out of it. Sky is the limit….
If we value things so much, then we are out of balance.
Life should be in moderation, when you depend on anything or anyone very much, something is now right within.
Haven’t reached myself that level of self accomplishment yet, … working on it though!

 

[Elliot G.]

If you are ever nearby Atlanta I’d love to get your critique of my system. It might not be accolades but I can take it. I have three brothers and their opinions range from amazing to good to I like my Sony receiver better.

And criticism has always lead to improvements.

Thanks for the invite and if I am up there Ill drop a line. My new place is in Boca Raton FLand it will open shortly. I try to keep my big system functional at all times but it is a store so it does change from time to time. You are welcome to visit as well.
Elliot

 

[Atmasphere]

30 years ago someone asked my what makes an audio product high end. I had to think about it and being me, it took a while.

High End Audio is driven by intention rather than price.

That is why someone can put together a system for a few thousand that can easily rival or surpass something that cost a $million.

Here's a simple example: there are SETs that make 7 or 8 Watts that cost over $10,000. But you can find EL84 based amps that can rival or surpass them in every way for a fraction of that.

Another: Tandy Corporation bought out Linaeum just so they could use their tweeter on a couple of speakers that retailed for under $600/pair. Those speakers got a lot of nice comments in the high end magazines (the Optimus LX 4 and 5 if anyone is interested; BTW there are replacement woofers available for them...). Radio Shack was not considered a high end audio manufacturer. But that happened out of intention.

Another: Topping has been making a very decent line of DACs for some years now. A few years back we had their cheapest one at the time, the D30 ($125.00 including shipping at the time), in the shop and had opportunity to compare it directly to a tubed DAC that cost over $4000.00. The Topping was smoother, more detailed, not bright (like the other was), played bass beautifully and generally was easy to listen to while the other was not. Their more expensive DACs are better and no-one likes to talk about it, but if you have a recording in digital format that you know really well (in my case because I recorded it) then if you're being honest you realize that Topping is delivering on what digital has been promising but falling short of for many years. Think about it- if the digital is being done right you should not be hearing big differences between DACs but you do; IMO mostly because a good number of them lack competence although some are excellent, which includes Topping.

I'm not saying that some far more expensive DACs aren't worth the money. If a competent engineer really goes all out and sets the bar high you can have something wonderful. And they are out there (and cost a bit too).

I can go on but you get the point.

Its all about intention.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

who is making that choice? I've never met him. People who can afford buy what they want. I in 50 plus years ever had someone say they were choosing between a car and an audio system. You can find flaw in anything including a Ferrari

one thing I can say and I worked for Ferrari for two years is none of the owners tried setting up the cars themselves LOL

also the percentage of new Ferrari's that get used to their performance potential is much lower than uber hifi systems. hifi systems are acquired to be listened to, not as garage queens, posers, or investments. yes; some do 'track' their cars, but less than half. there are many many reasons to own a Ferrari. much, much less so for hifi.

observe the average milage on a used 2-5-7 year old Ferrari. under 3000 miles. many under 1500 miles. the ones that get driven are not the one's for sale.

so while there are common motivations involved in both, they are really separate realms. and not comparable.

 

[Atmasphere]

also the percentage of new Ferrari's that get used to their performance potential is much lower than uber hifi systems. hifi systems are acquired to be listened to, not as garage queens, posers, or investments. yes; some do 'track' their cars, but less than half. there are many many reasons to own a Ferrari. much, much less so for hifi.

observe the average milage on a used 2-5-7 year old Ferrari. under 3000 miles. many under 1500 miles.

so while there are common motivations involved in both, they are really separate realms. and not comparable.

I know an audiophile that owns a Porsche and he's afraid to sit in it let alone drive it.