Is Levinson relevant anymore?

[KeithR]

When I got in this hobby in the late 1990s, owning Mark Levinson gear was definitely prestigious and some of the better constructed gear in this hobby. Sonics could be argued by some, but regardless it was very high end gear that was owned by many folks. People like me used to lust after a pair of 33Hs or 33s just on looks alone!

What are folk's thoughts nowadays on the Company? I hardly see a review anymore in any of the major rags. No one posts about their products. Is Levinson, now part of Harman, a dinosaur??

Cheers,

KeithR

 

[JackD201]

In terms of sound and build quality, I do not think ML (The Brand not the Man) is a dinosaur by any stretch of the imagination. It is however now faced, more than ever, with a lot of aggressive competitors vying for the same market segments.

Just a year or two ago, at least here in Asia, Harman re-mapped their distribution network and consolidated ML distributorship along with that of JBL Synthesis. The unexpected result here is that ML ended up with a distributor that's core clientele is High-End Home Cinema and not High-End Music as was the former ML distributor. The long term effect on the marque remains to be seen.

 

[amirm]

There is no question that the brand for a few years lost focus. The win seemed more to be a stereo for Lexus than a stereo in the home.

The realization has set in and the company has decided to push forward again. The new No 53 is a Tour de Force when it comes to amplification. Exemplary industrial design and innovation in circuit topology. Lots more is in the pipeline.

When one adds the Revel speakers to the ML as close sisters, I think they have a good foundation to build.

What is great about Mark Levinson is that it has a real company behind it with substantial resources. It is not a two-man shop which may or may not be around a few years from now. When investing in such expensive gear, longevity becomes a factor.

Of note, I think we are going to join their new mission and see if we can bring the brand back to full life. If all goes well, we will have a nice roster of their amps and their current processor showcased in our showroom in a couple of weeks. I am pumped and excited about the prospect. The journey should not be that hard. The company behind the brand is strong. Products are strong. And they still have exceptional design expertise in house.

I hope to share our experience with the line here. We are creating scenarios different than what people normally use, showcasing excellence with simplicity.

 

[KeithR]

Amir-

Do you think Harman has helped or hurt Levinsons new product design? Do you think there foray into home theater cost their 2 channel image?

I would concur with Jack201 that they really market themselves more as HT gear these days.

 

[Bruce B]

Amir, did you choose to become a dealer for Levinson because it's the best you've heard? the widest profit margin? connections with Harman? because Definitive dropped them? Enlighten us...

 

[JackD201]

ML's pinacle was arguably in the days of the No. 3 series particularly the No.32, No.33H and No.33. This was after Levinson had left. So I think Harman helped.

I think the issue really is one of positioning as well as the conglomerate's attitude towards which line of HSG to push harder. ML and Revel are supposed to be the Halos but JBL and Lexicon are crowding them a little bit.

From a purely marketing standpoint, I'd disband the umbrella and let the three compete. That way I could be sure none of them would be pulling punches.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

i was a ML fanboy back in the day (late 90's); i first owned the #36S pre, #35 dac, #37 transport and #335 amp. later i moved up to the #32 pre and #33h amps, then finally the #33 amps.....by this time my digital was the Linn CD-12. i have nothing bad to say about any of those ML pieces. in fact; i still think they represent the highest level of industrial design yet seen in the high end.....aesthetically. and the performance was always solid, listenable, refined and balanced; if not as low noise or as transparent as SOTA.

then ML lost it's way by throwing so much money at the development of the AVP and #40.....and then had the financial issues....and has never recovered it's leadership position.

i owned two different AVP's and Proceed amps, and still use Revel speakers in my 7.1 home theatre.

 

[amirm]

Amir-

Do you think Harman has helped or hurt Levinsons new product design?

I think Harman has added incredible new tools to their portfolio. Just look at the test setup that Sean created for them with blind testing and such. No high-end company can ever afford that.

That said, having done acquisitions before, four out of five times it doesn't end well. And clearly, attention was lost. What specifically happened I don't know for sure.

Do you think there foray into home theater cost their 2 channel image?

I don't think so. Their processors do look grand and supported HDMI when most of the other guys were wondering where to go and buy that subsystem.

 

[Bruce B]

I echo Mike's sentiments. I was a ML choir boy too with the #331 amp, #38pre and later #380s. I was looking into getting the 33h and then Definitive dropped them and I went briefly to the Halcro that they pushed. When they tried to marry up the HT crowd, they lost their luster.

 

[amirm]

Amir, did you choose to become a dealer for Levinson because it's the best you've heard? the widest profit margin? connections with Harman? because Definitive dropped them? Enlighten us...

Let me say up front that business decisions are not the same as personal decisions. That said, if there is one thing I hate is having profit margin be the first and main reason for carrying anything. I lecture any company I speak to that I don't want to hear that they are great because they give us high margin. I want to know that the product is differentiated and that they can honestly explain why it is different. And then I test the product to make sure it conforms to the claims. I feel I can do this for Mark Levinson.

Personal relationship here also mattered a lot. This is both good for us and our customers. We had a lexicon processor which had bad HDMI input. The next day we had another while still holding on the old one. I can pick up the phone and talk to Kevin Veoks, and a number of other people there and have a real conversation about high performance audio design, future direction, etc.

The margin from what I recall BTW, is the same as other products so nothing there is exceptional.

As to definitive, I heard they were going after the line but we get priority .

Now, have I heard everything and they are the best? No, I don't have a way of knowing if they are the best. The only way I could know that is by having all of these amps on my workbench to do listening and measurement tests and I don't have that luxury. We have three of them on order and I will compare them to each other and a few other brands we have (lower tier). As I noted, my process is to always confirm the performance in our shop which I will do when I go through this testing.

Hopefully I answered all of your questions.

 

[Bruce B]

Hopefully I answered all of your questions.

Thanks Amir... I just wondered how dealers pick the brands they want to sell. If I sold something, I would want to be able to look the customer in the eye and tell them truthfully that I like the sound. Paradigm is a great product as well, but I think they are a little too close to Revel. Wisdom was once carred by a couple local guys and they also demonstrated them at our local Pacific NW Audio Society. A good counterpoint to Revel. Berkeley... no comment! Genelec?? that one throws me.

I don't know about Mike, but I purchased all my Levinson gear at Definitive about 10yr. ago. They dropped the product and went with Halcro... bad mistake.

 

[amirm]

I also bought $200K worth of ML from Definitive.

We don't show the Genelecs. We work closely with Keith Yates on acoustic/theater design and he really loves them. According to him, he knows the good and bad in them and knows how to dial out the bad. So our Genelecs are there when we do joint design.

Wisdom's line is different now. We don't sell them as floor standing speakers but rather, in-walls. In our main theater for example, they are all in the front wall. They are very shallow and fit into standard construction. No one else offers such high-end speakers that can be flush mounted that way. It is a great sensation to watch a movie and have these amazing wall of sound where you cannot pinpoint the speaker. We do not carry their old audiophile line which they have mostly sold in Europe.

Paradigm pairs reasonably well for us as it covers the lower end and more value oriented. As you go up the line though, they do overlap and we are playing that by ear as we also demonstrate Paradigm. Fortunately, both Harman and Paradigm have their roots in good research at NRC so our logic of liking both kind of makes sense .

I can tell you with confidence that the #1 reason by far why someone carries a line at a regular dealership are the business terms. Performance is a distant number two. Definitive doesn't sell Paradigm because B&W put pressure on them to drop it and that is what they did. Then B&W went and sold the line to Magnolia/BBY! Someone must have been pretty unhappy right there. We started with a clean sheet of paper so had less of these issues. Paradigm has been great as we are selling them before we even open our showroom! People just oder them based on reviews and reputation.

BTW, Gary and I have talked about hosting PNW Audio Society at our showroom and now that the bulk of our construction is over, I am thinking about organizing that. Our place is not set up or focused on pure audiophiles but should be a good backstage to nice evening of conversation .

 

[Husk]

Amir, Where will you be located in Seattle?

 

[amirm]

Amir, Where will you be located in Seattle?

We are on the east side in Bellevue, stone throw from our competitors :

Here is our address and map: http://www.madronadigital.com/contact/Contact.html

 

[garylkoh]

BTW, Gary and I have talked about hosting PNW Audio Society at our showroom and now that the bulk of our construction is over, I am thinking about organizing that. Our place is not set up or focused on pure audiophiles but should be a good backstage to nice evening of conversation .

Oops! We never confirmed a date, and last Friday we had our EXCO meeting where we worked out the schedule of meetings for the rest of the year. I'll raise it again to the EXCO - but may be we can organize it as a "field trip" outside of the regular meetings.

 

[amirm]

Man, you all are so organized to plan so far in advance! We can also do this informally for WBF members and whoever else likes to come.

 

[JHM]

"Is Levinson relevant anymore?"

No.

If I was starting a business that was going after the custom installation hiend hometheater market, my main electronic line would be Bryston and speakers would be PMC.

"I can tell you with confidence that the #1 reason by far why someone carries a line at a regular dealership are the business terms. Performance is a distant number two."

I wouldn't buy anything from anyone that says "Performance is a distant number two."

 

[amirm]

If I was starting a business that was going after the custom installation hiend hometheater market, my main electronic line would be Bryston and speakers would be PMC.

Not a fan of PMC but Byrston is quite nice . And would have been our next choice after ML.

"I can tell you with confidence that the #1 reason by far why someone carries a line at a regular dealership are the business terms. Performance is a distant number two."

I wouldn't buy anything from anyone that says "Performance is a distant number two."

Well, they would never tell you that . I am giving you inside information on how most companies in this business work. Just to repeat, that is NOT how I go about running it. If we can't get the performance, I don't care about the profit. To wit, we are going to try to carry Oppo as our BD player. We can make far more money selling other brands but they simply don't perform.

 

[andromedaaudio]

Interesting thread !
I have a weakspot for ML and ive once started a thread on audiogon " who heard the ML 53 " because there was no review nothing.
I think first of all its all about set up .
The dealers here in holland dont have it standing around , they have a lot of boulder spectral soulution enz .
I just think its out of temporarily audiofile hype , i dont think its the brand (although i have my doubts about the small 5 series , light weight no big power supply) but the audiofiles them self are the problem .
Just see the prices of the second hand 32 s and 33 33h here in europe , there is real value there they are still relative expensive .

In my personal view for example , combine a nagra pre and ML 436 monoamps and everybody can take the krells boulders spectrals home with them , if people say levinson is slow than they should change the pre amp

greetz hj maybe i m deaf but i dont care .

 

[amirm]

We should shortly have our No 53s in store so will be able to spend quality time with them and report back.

BTW, I forgot to mention number one reason I like Mark Levinson/Harman products in general: they don't suck in any area! I am serious. They have the tools and resources to properly test a product. It is not just an idea where they build a couple and hope people come and buy them. I am always shocked to see how few resources small companies have in properly measuring and testing products. An Audio Precision analyzer costs $25,000 alone. For smaller companies that is a lot of money. Conducting blind tests can costs thousands of dollars per run and require dedicated room and personnel. Nor can small companies draw from various divisions as Harman can. There is for example, a lot of synergy now between Crown group that has pushed a lot of innovations in digital amp design (closely working with Texas Instrument in new LSIs). Their large business in auto market lets them spend R&D dollars on this front that simply can't be justified by companies not in that business.

Now, stuff has to perform or the above is just an informational . But as a whole, I sit comfortable, not worrying that someone saying, "I heard the Mark Levinson and it sounded like crap." In other words, they comply with a minimum bar of performance that may or may not be there for many other companies.