Is There a Measurement for “Dynamics”

[Tangram]

When the word “dynamic” is used by audiophiles I assume this is shorthand for “dynamic range”, which to me is the difference (in decibels) between the quietest and loudest music passages. Like many of you I prize dynamics in an audio system, so much so that without “good dynamics” it’s difficult for me to emotionally connect with music.

Dynamics were in mind then when I was researching my next pair of speakers. But there is no “dynamics” measurement I could point to which would help me find a more dynamic speaker than what I already had. Sure, I looked at sensitivity and impedance curves, made sure my amp was a good match and so on. I ended up purchasing a similar style of speakers which were 8 ohm, 94 db sensitivity, to replace my 4 ohm, 91 db sensitivity speakers (both are open baffle). Long story short - the old speakers are more “dynamic” than the new ones. They’re still good, but instead of a step forward, they’re a step back.

To keep this conversation on track please, horn lovers, don’t just say “buy horns”. And this isn’t a thread about amp/speaker synergy, or which tube is the “most dynamic”.

Question: Is there a way to measure, using industry standards, the “dynamics” of a speaker, that could be published alongside standard speaker specifications?

 

[Mike Lavigne]

you start out by trying to define musical dynamics. then look for numbers that reflect that.

since as i think about it, dynamics is made up of a combination of attributes, it's hard to 'boil it down' to one attribute, let alone one number. you can have speed, but lack weight, or impact, or scale, or shadings of each of those. dynamics is about agility to change, and by how much, as a particular measurement at a moment in time.

getting your arms around it is hard since the whole idea of it is...........drum roll please,........dynamic.

i'm no expert; but maybe a waterfall plot might separate one speaker dynamically from another? it's a question as i don't know about such things.

i do have my own system specific way i judge source or media dynamics, but it's not anything speaker specific. and i don't want to muddy the water here with it.

 

[Tangram]

you start out by trying to define musical dynamics. then look for numbers that reflect that.

since as i think about it, dynamics is made up of a combination of attributes, it's hard to 'boil it down' to one attribute, let alone one number. you can have speed, but lack weight, or impact, or scale, or shadings of each of those. dynamics is about agility to change, and by how much, as a particular measurement at a moment in time.

getting your arms around it is hard since the whole idea of it is...........drum roll please,........dynamic.

i'm no expert; but maybe a waterfall plot might separate one speaker dynamically from another? it's a question as i don't know about such things.

i do have my own system specific way i judge source or media dynamics, but it's not anything speaker specific. and i don't want to muddy the water here with it.

Thanks for chiming in Mike. It’s funny - most of us know when a speaker is “dynamic” so it should be measurable.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

Thanks for chiming in Mike. It’s funny - most of us know when a speaker is “dynamic”

agree.

so it should be measurable.

that is a question i think. can it be measured?

as it's such a big issue, my guess if it was so easily defined, we would already be well aware of it. certainly speaker manufacturers would have made a big deal about it if it was reasonable to connect a number and superior dynamics. the only thing i can recall about it is subjective. but look forward to getting educated about it.

being human allows us to judge 'dynamic' type situations as a matter of normal life. it's what we do. not sure science can assemble that same comprehensive viewpoint as succinctly. not saying it can't be done, but boiling it down to an easy to digest number?

 

[DasguteOhr]

What is dynamc
Room noisefloor and the noise of your devices+ 20db sound pressure from there you can hear music clearly in all facets.
Since music is usually controlled to 0dbu, this is the maximum usable dynamic on the recording. Now, your devices usually have a headroom for impulse peaks in order to reproduce dynamic music at high volumes, but this is different for each device.
very well explained on the diagram

 

[Mike Lavigne]

What is dynamc
Room noisefloor and the noise of your devices+ 20db sound pressure from there you can hear music clearly in all facets.Since music is usually controlled to 0dbu, this is the maximum usable dynamic on the recording. Now, your devices usually have a headroom for impulse peaks in order to reproduce dynamic music at high volumes, but this is different for each device.
very well explained on the diagram

i see what you are posting. but is that diagram speaker specific? or for a whole system? how is the speaker part isolated to allow for speakers to be compared? is there some sort of reference input? does it speak to degrees weight and impact? and agility to change (stop and start)?

 

[DasguteOhr]

i see what you are posting. but is that diagram speaker specific? or for a whole system? how is the speaker part isolated to allow for speakers to be compared? is there some sort of reference input?

This the complete system you can't separate them. You can have a very dynamic loudspeaker, for example if your amplifier can no longer deliver dynamics (impulse) in the headroom, it will only get louder but no longer more dynamic. It sounds flat and monotonous.
Exsample you hear music with 90db soundpressure in 1m distance iand your speaker have 90db/ 1watt efficiency then comes 20db dynamic impulse bass of the music. in the short moment you need 100 times the amplification (20db) if your amplifier does not deliver 100 watts you will still perceive impulse as such but not 20db as is on the recording

 

[AndrewChen]

…

Question: Is there a way to measure, using industry standards, the “dynamics” of a speaker, that could be published alongside standard speaker specifications?

Dynamics without a measure of Distortion would be rather useless, especially since dynamic compression is probably one of the biggest challenge for drivers.

I don’t expect any Speaker manufacturer to make distortion figures public, so you’re unlikely to see any dynamics metrics for speakers.

 

[Tangram]

Dynamics without a measure of Distortion would be rather useless, especially since dynamic compression is probably one of the biggest challenge for drivers.

I don’t expect any Speaker manufacturer to make distortion figures public, so you’re unlikely to see any dynamics metrics for speakers.

Why can’t the industry standard include a max distortion threshold as criteria for the measurement?

 

[DasguteOhr]

Dynamics without a measure of Distortion would be rather useless, especially since dynamic compression is probably one of the biggest challenge for drivers.

I don’t expect any Speaker manufacturer to make distortion figures public, so you’re unlikely to see any dynamics metrics for speakers.

I have never seen such measured values. Neumann and ME Geithain give k2/k3 values at a certain sound pressure, e.g. 96db listening level at 1m distance. Even something like that is rare in the loudspeaker industry.

 

[microstrip]

Why can’t the industry standard include a max distortion threshold as criteria for the measurement?

How would you measure it? And how could it be used?

Soundstage and the german magazine Stereo had measurements of distortion versus frequency at several sound levels, but just THD, that can be misleading.

 

[RCanelas]

Nice question. Not very good answers from me I'm afraid.

IMD, waterfall, impulse response and higher order distortion numbers are where I would look first.

Lower the IMD - less tonal shrapnel, more capacity to put energy where it is supposed to be
Clean waterfall - no overhanging resonances compromising an impulse
Impulse response - single sharp peak (ideal), at least smooth transient handover (the usual compromise in multiway systems), no lingering energy, immediate rise time (not just on the tweeter...)
Higher order distortion - a bit of 5th order components help to provide a physical feeling of 'dynamics', enough to compensate for the inertia of the drivers, not enough that it becomes a caricature of the recording

In plain terms, you probably want as high sensitivity as you can get and/or high displacement and throw woofers. They won't give you the same type of dynamics however. For me, high throw is impressive for about 10 min, then I need to get out of the room. A lot of dynamic 93 to 98 dB speakers are a liberal mix of the two, so it is normal that you get different and unexpected results.

Not very good answers indeed. Sorry

 

[Mike Lavigne]

Not very good answers indeed. Sorry

damn.

i guess we just have to listen.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

now that we realize we are not getting a nice neat measurement for speaker to speaker dynamics comparison purposes, as the target concept does not fit into a simple package, it's too DYNAMIC......i will explain how i check on my source and media dynamic compares.

i just do a level gain compare and watch the 'peak watt' meters on my dart 468 amplifiers. it's easy to see what sources and media has the highest dynamic peaks. i have even seen the effect of adding active isolation under my tt. and these differences are quite large many times. the smearing of peaks digital to analog is quite mind blowing. and very real. so we can see some things easily. but it's a loose result. nothing scientific.

 

[Rt66indierock]

When the word “dynamic” is used by audiophiles I assume this is shorthand for “dynamic range”, which to me is the difference (in decibels) between the quietest and loudest music passages. Like many of you I prize dynamics in an audio system, so much so that without “good dynamics” it’s difficult for me to emotionally connect with music.

Dynamics were in mind then when I was researching my next pair of speakers. But there is no “dynamics” measurement I could point to which would help me find a more dynamic speaker than what I already had. Sure, I looked at sensitivity and impedance curves, made sure my amp was a good match and so on. I ended up purchasing a similar style of speakers which were 8 ohm, 94 db sensitivity, to replace my 4 ohm, 91 db sensitivity speakers (both are open baffle). Long story short - the old speakers are more “dynamic” than the new ones. They’re still good, but instead of a step forward, they’re a step back.

To keep this conversation on track please, horn lovers, don’t just say “buy horns”. And this isn’t a thread about amp/speaker synergy, or which tube is the “most dynamic”.

Question: Is there a way to measure, using industry standards, the “dynamics” of a speaker, that could be published alongside standard speaker specifications?

See attached PDF.

 

[Tangram]

Nice question. Not very good answers from me I'm afraid.

IMD, waterfall, impulse response and higher order distortion numbers are where I would look first.

Lower the IMD - less tonal shrapnel, more capacity to put energy where it is supposed to be
Clean waterfall - no overhanging resonances compromising an impulse
Impulse response - single sharp peak (ideal), at least smooth transient handover (the usual compromise in multiway systems), no lingering energy, immediate rise time (not just on the tweeter...)
Higher order distortion - a bit of 5th order components help to provide a physical feeling of 'dynamics', enough to compensate for the inertia of the drivers, not enough that it becomes a caricature of the recording

In plain terms, you probably want as high sensitivity as you can get and/or high displacement and throw woofers. They won't give you the same type of dynamics however. For me, high throw is impressive for about 10 min, then I need to get out of the room. A lot of dynamic 93 to 98 dB speakers are a liberal mix of the two, so it is normal that you get different and unexpected results.

Not very good answers indeed. Sorry

Roberto, thanks for your thoughts. My hope of a single measurements seems to be a fool’s errand.

As an open baffle enthusiast, when (not if!) I visit Portugal I’d love to hear some of your creations.

 

[DasguteOhr]

you start out by trying to define musical dynamics. then look for numbers that reflect that.

since as i think about it, dynamics is made up of a combination of attributes, it's hard to 'boil it down' to one attribute, let alone one number. you can have speed, but lack weight, or impact, or scale, or shadings of each of those. dynamics is about agility to change, and by how much, as a particular measurement at a moment in time.

getting your arms around it is hard since the whole idea of it is...........drum roll please,........dynamic.

i'm no expert; but maybe a waterfall plot might separate one speaker dynamically from another? it's a question as i don't know about such things.

i do have my own system specific way i judge source or media dynamics, but it's not anything speaker specific. and i don't want to muddy the water here with it.

For media dr loudness war( dynamic scale) for album lp/cd/files
When you use foobar it have dynamic range meter for every song you play

Album list - Dynamic Range DB

Foobar

foo_dynamic_range ~ Foobar & Dynamic Range Meter

Dynamic Range Meter is a foobar2000 component designed to give the same information as the Dynamic Range Offline Meter. This component can process all audio formats foobar2000 can handle and also s…

audio-file.org

 

[microstrip]

(... ) i just do a level gain compare and watch the 'peak watt' meters on my dart 468 amplifiers. it's easy to see what sources and media has the highest dynamic peaks. i have even seen the effect of adding active isolation under my tt. and these differences are quite large many times. the smearing of peaks digital to analog is quite mind blowing. and very real. so we can see some things easily. but it's a loose result. nothing scientific.

Mike,

What are you calling a "level gain compare"? Are you saying that when you keep constant gain, peaks on the dart 468 are much higher with active isolation? The same for digital?

 

[Mike Lavigne]

Mike,

What are you calling a "level gain compare"? Are you saying that when you keep constant gain, peaks on the dart 468 are much higher with active isolation? The same for digital?

i'm saying that if i do a gain compare digital source to vinyl source on my preamp; then play the same dynamic passage on both, the vinyl will have higher peaks; in some cases 50 peak watts+++ higher; depending on how far i push the SPL's as the difference scales.

and the same with turning my active isolation on and off under my Esoteric tt. i can see up to 20 peak watts difference on some peaks as the feedback is eliminated.

when peaks smear the amps know it. vinyl being more dynamic than digital is no great mystery. tape source-high rez file--analog pressing. or high rez source from the same mic feed as the pressing, same result.

i've done this for years and there is only one result over many compares.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

try 'Georgia On My Mind' from Ben Webster's 'Live at the Renaissance', about 90 seconds in there is a drum whack, compare the best digital you can find to the best vinyl. using the AP 45 rpm pressing, i can get 170-200 watt peaks from the vinyl; around 100-120 watt peaks from the digital. experientially it's like a different recording. both are tape sourced. i have the AP Gold CD Doug Sax mastered from the original tapes with tube electronics. he also did the 45.

the digital is very nice, but dynamically they are in different worlds.