Is There a Measurement for “Dynamics”
- Thread starter Tangram
- Start date
if you were here listening with me you might be speechless, but you also would be grinning. i have done this demo for many visitors who are shocked with the dynamics of this drum whack. Webster's horn at the beginning is also dynamically startling. it transcends the realism barrier.
i play the cut loud but not painfully so. it is a live recording in a jazz club and i play it close to real world volume. the vinyl holds up better than the digital at the loud volume.
after many sessions it's this recording which people remember vividly.
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remember this is a peak watt event; the amp readout then holds that number for 8 seconds. so a 50 watt difference is not really crazy for a millisecond. my speakers are 97db, 7 ohm efficient, so that is very loud but brief. you do feel it quite profoundly.
I like open baffle myself. The only thing I miss is bass impact. Which In my mind, I partially equate to dynamic impact. Sort of.
I don't gravitate to most speakers in a box as I find them too controlled. Very linear and clean. Maybe with gutteral force and bass power that can be interpreted as dynamic. But I perceve them as lacking in other area.
Mike is on what I see as dynamic. The thwack of a drum that makes you jump. It starts so fast. It goes from 0 to 100 like the real thing. But how do you get that? More power? Less power? Bi amped, tri amped? Digitally procesed? Smaller cones, larger cones, subs?
I have heard many stereo I like. Few are truely dynamic in the sense of fooling me into believing a drum is in the room. Some make a very convincing horn or violin.
I don't gravitate to most speakers in a box as I find them too controlled. Very linear and clean. Maybe with gutteral force and bass power that can be interpreted as dynamic. But I perceve them as lacking in other area.
Mike is on what I see as dynamic. The thwack of a drum that makes you jump. It starts so fast. It goes from 0 to 100 like the real thing. But how do you get that? More power? Less power? Bi amped, tri amped? Digitally procesed? Smaller cones, larger cones, subs?
I have heard many stereo I like. Few are truely dynamic in the sense of fooling me into believing a drum is in the room. Some make a very convincing horn or violin.
If you listen to music at 97db and see 50 watts briefly in the peak meter, that corresponds to 10db dynamics. Now you'll probably laugh, but most Dire Straits albums have 16-20db dynamics, which is an excellent value. Classical music is on average at 12-15db
Link dire straits
Link Gustav Mahler for exsample
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When you need a amp that can deliever 30db dynamics at all volume levels. then the restek exponent here. were the strongest ten years ago in the world, whether they still are no idea 1.85kw at 4ohm.
P.S by the way one of the best amplifiers I know
P.S by the way one of the best amplifiers I know
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Elliot G.
Industry Expert
Dynamics are like Porn. I may not know how to describe it in words but I know it when I see/hear it
Thanks for the comments.
I now see you mistake W (watt) by dB - and then go subjective, running away from the interesting aspect - if this is true, either the digital media and the absence of the active platform heavily compresses.
Comparing recordings with different mastering is meaningless to the subject of the thread - measuring dynamics. BTW, there is an unit for power - the dBW. Power relative to 1w , expressed in dB.
you are welcome.
the amp readout shows 'X' W, not X dB for the peak value. edit---i now see i did write dB instead of W. i just now corrected it. sorry.
please take me through this thinking step be step. i have no idea what you are referring to.
Doug Sax mastered both the vinyl and CD from the same source at the same time with the same tube electronics. if he compressed the digital, he certainly would have compressed the vinyl. i have both the AP 33 rpm and 45 rpm pressings. these were essentially first pressings even though it was a 60's recording as it had been buried and only a mono pressing had been released from different tapes prior.
not disputing the technical stuff, i can only view the dart amp outputs and manual and read what i see.
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Please put you reading glasses on and read what you wrote previously.
You have a tape recorders with meters - you can easily check it if you want.
But, accepting your arguments you have to assume that either the Wadax compresses or the Esoteric system with active table expands. One of them is not linear.
Your claims are technical, they should be addressed technically. In fact it is the third time I read and comment on such firm claims from a subjectivist in WBF.
see my edit.
would not know where to begin. or want to figure it out. happy with where i am.
it was the same with the Lampi, the MSB and the Wadax. it was the same result before and after i moved the active isolation under the Esoteric. been posting about this for a decade. it's not a digital hardware issue. it's a format difference issue. and i just happen to have amps with peak watt meters since 2012 that i stare at all day while i play music in multiple formats and so after many thousands of hours some things just are undeniable.
denial is not a river in Egypt.
no, they are not technical. i am playing music and reading readouts on amplifiers and reporting and then drawing anecdotal conclusions. but not using any words that infer proof. read post #14 where i write; "but it's a loose result. nothing scientific."
normal stuff. ignorant audiophiles making wrong conclusions. enjoying the music.
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Does power really equate to dynamics? I thought power was a reaction to low efficiency speakers. If one were to place mids and highs on one amp and integrate bass on another, you could conceivably have excellent dynamics with 1 to 3 watts. Isn't it the bass that eats up the power. Then the ugly crossover sucking up power itself from the single amp trying to drive too much. Yes, the bass end may enjoy 1 3kw . But the mid and high don't.
I see. Now a 50dB claim changes to a 3dB claim. It could be expected. Nothing special - there are many acceptable possible reasons to justify it.
Surely. The same errors repeated systematically an hundred times don't
become truth. Again - an active table when powered off is not the absence of the table - it is an undamped resonator that can spoil the sound, creating tuned feedback. It can be easily shown if you record them with tape and analyse the spectra.
Reading readouts of amplifiers and reporting are measurements. Measurements are technical. Feel free to omit them and make subjective comments - we enjoy them - but every time you report measurements it is an objective data. As I say, even hard subjectivist love the occasional comfort of an objective cane.
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Dynamics has several meanings depending on context and poster intentions.
The OP associates it to something that has no equivalent in speakers - dynamic range - and from there we diverged.
can't argue the technical. OTOH it is a very repeatable difference over many years of compares. and implications for the format difference when considered over all the music is huge. and what i hear every day. it fits.
not true. the active table with the decoupling turned off sounds better than no active table. there is a passive benefit compared to the absence of the table.....with the turntables i've tried active with.....the NVS and Esoteric. i did very briefly try active with the Saskia, but too much noise feedback.......a net negative, so removed it.
my CS Port also has the same result, as did the Saskia. never used active with either. when comparing to the digital source.
rationalize it any way you like. it's what i hear.
ok.Reading readouts of amplifiers and reporting are measurements. Measurements are technical. Feel free to omit them and make subjective comments - we enjoy them - but every time you report measurements it is an objective data. As I say, even hard subjectivist love the occasional comfort of an objective cane.
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I would not say it in such a definitive way. Excluding dynamic headroom , dynamics is also a power versus time subjective issue, that can be measured in some non standard transient techniques. Although non-linearity is usually a non-issue, some speakers can show systematically poor dynamics in typical use due to particular distortion patterns or frequency response. Probably a particular amplifier can compensate it in part.
I believe your subjective findings but IMO the implications are none. You are not even able to explain why ...
On, I edited it "can spoil" - surely I do not know what happens subjectively in your system!
No, he said 50 peak watts, not dB. Taking into account some likely inaccuracies on the meters being too slow, this might be more than 50 watts. Still, that’s might only entail a couple of dB when you are talking 100 vs. 150 watts, for example.
