Is Your Loudspeaker Perfect For You?
- Thread starter Ron Resnick
- Start date
Yes, yes they are. It was ... at first <fill in the blank>. We're renting a cottage at the Cape for the summer 
I have known my listening priorities, preferences and tastes for a very long time.
My speakers are PranaFidelity Dhyana. I knew when I first heard them that these probably were the perfect speakers for me and for my room. They are indeed. See my review:
PranaFidelity Dhyana: Two-way quasi line array speaker
The Speaker Retail price/pair: $ 19,500 Dimensions in mm: 1219 x 278 x 455 mm (H x W x D) Dimensions in feet/inch: 4.0 feet x 10.9 inch x 17.9 inch (H x W x D) weight: 45 kg (100 pounds) Below data are largely based on personal communication by Steven Norber, the designer. The Pranafidelity...
www.whatsbestforum.com
I have heard ATC speakers only once, at a show, which often means suboptimal conditions. They were passive, and did sound lean and bright. I was under no illusion that this sound was what I should hear from the brand, but it was funny that the ATC representatives in that room couldn't get it right.
I have passive speakers, but what you describe is exactly the sound that I do *not* want.
The kind of midrange and highs that you describe here is what I get from my speakers in.my room.
Over 20 years ago, I went thru a major life transition in which I sold everything - including every single vinyl record I had bought as a young man. All the Hi-Fi I owned at the time went the same way.
With part of the proceeds I acquired a pair of Snell Type A III in great condition. I put them under tarp., hoping that - as I rebuilt my life - so I would rebuild a music-playing system in front of them.
Since then I have done just that - currently vertically bi-amping them with Linn Klimax Twins. I had the woofers and mids re-foamed by old school techs. before starting out. The upper chamber cloths cannot be satisfactorily re-established after accessing the mids. Peter Qvortrup says my pair looks "agricultural" (with the upper metal frame exposed). He was curious to know how mine sounded and - still owning several pairs of Type A himself - wanted photos of the mids pre-repair. I told him that my Type As are the most cherished and lovingly maintained on the planet.
I have been a part-time dealer in physical media, and now gratefully own many thousands of records and CDs - even if the actual instances (as distinct from the music) don't have the same biographical significance as the ones I once owned.
Probably I could afford to replace the Type As in the near future. The possibility has crossed my mind. But I still love them - especially the way they shift so much air from open wide baffles. Room treatments still "improve" them. I shouldn't be surprised if they remain my lifespan speakers. I consider my analogue back end good enough for a major turntable investment yet to come. Meantime they play nice in front of my bespoke digital jukebox. I have some Quad ESL 57s that cannot hold a candle to them.
I wouldn't dispose of my Snell Type A III any more lightly than I would move house - and not much more readily than I would move on from a significant human relationship.
I wouldn't go so far as to say these speakers are "perfect" for me. But they cannot be far off that.
With part of the proceeds I acquired a pair of Snell Type A III in great condition. I put them under tarp., hoping that - as I rebuilt my life - so I would rebuild a music-playing system in front of them.
Since then I have done just that - currently vertically bi-amping them with Linn Klimax Twins. I had the woofers and mids re-foamed by old school techs. before starting out. The upper chamber cloths cannot be satisfactorily re-established after accessing the mids. Peter Qvortrup says my pair looks "agricultural" (with the upper metal frame exposed). He was curious to know how mine sounded and - still owning several pairs of Type A himself - wanted photos of the mids pre-repair. I told him that my Type As are the most cherished and lovingly maintained on the planet.
I have been a part-time dealer in physical media, and now gratefully own many thousands of records and CDs - even if the actual instances (as distinct from the music) don't have the same biographical significance as the ones I once owned.
Probably I could afford to replace the Type As in the near future. The possibility has crossed my mind. But I still love them - especially the way they shift so much air from open wide baffles. Room treatments still "improve" them. I shouldn't be surprised if they remain my lifespan speakers. I consider my analogue back end good enough for a major turntable investment yet to come. Meantime they play nice in front of my bespoke digital jukebox. I have some Quad ESL 57s that cannot hold a candle to them.
I wouldn't dispose of my Snell Type A III any more lightly than I would move house - and not much more readily than I would move on from a significant human relationship.
I wouldn't go so far as to say these speakers are "perfect" for me. But they cannot be far off that.
Hi,
The room dimension, lay out and use I think very often dictate the selection of the speakers therefore the selection of other component shall follow.
In case of a dedicate room for only listen purpose the matter is different and speaker selection much much easier.
Rgds
Adelmo
Jazzman53
Well-Known Member
I can't say that I've ever heard a "perfect" speaker but... yes, I can say that my speakers are perfect for me. That is; balanced, sufficiently dynamic, and spooky-real clarity. And the fact that I designed and built them myself is pretty rewarding too.
I've been a music lover and wanna-be audiophile for as long as I can remember but I never had the financial freedom to indulge my lust so I had to innovate, spend wisely, and build whatever I could.
My fully-dipolar hybrid speakers evolved over 15 years researching and building many iterations of electrostatic drivers. The wire stators are 90-wire arrays, electrically segmented in 15 discrete wire groups to function as a line source projecting a cylindrical wavefront. This arrangement gives wider, smoother-trending dispersion than a curved-panel ESL, and the DIY Ripol subs are the perfect match to complete the package.
A full description with build photos are given on my website here:
jazzman-esl-page.blogspot.com
I've been a music lover and wanna-be audiophile for as long as I can remember but I never had the financial freedom to indulge my lust so I had to innovate, spend wisely, and build whatever I could.
My fully-dipolar hybrid speakers evolved over 15 years researching and building many iterations of electrostatic drivers. The wire stators are 90-wire arrays, electrically segmented in 15 discrete wire groups to function as a line source projecting a cylindrical wavefront. This arrangement gives wider, smoother-trending dispersion than a curved-panel ESL, and the DIY Ripol subs are the perfect match to complete the package.
A full description with build photos are given on my website here:
Jazzman's DIY Electrostatic Loudspeaker Page
DIY electrostatic loudspeakers
jazzman-esl-page.blogspot.com
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Very impressive. Congratulations.I can't say that I've ever heard a "perfect" speaker but... yes, I can say that my speakers are perfect for me. That is; balanced, sufficiently dynamic, and spooky-real clarity. And the fact that I designed and built them myself is pretty rewarding too.
I've been a music lover and wanna-be audiophile for as long as I can remember but I never had the financial freedom to indulge my lust so I had to innovate, spend wisely, and build whatever I could.
My fully-dipolar hybrid speakers evolved over 15 years researching and building many iterations of electrostatic drivers. The wire stators are 90-wire arrays, electrically segmented in 15 discrete wire groups to function as a line source projecting a cylindrical wavefront. This arrangement gives wider, smoother-trending dispersion than a curved-panel ESL, and the DIY Ripol subs are the perfect match to complete the package.
A full description with build photos are given on my website here:
Jazzman's DIY Electrostatic Loudspeaker Page
DIY electrostatic loudspeakers
View attachment 121640
After 40 years, I have come to the conclusion that getting the speakers right is the most difficult aspect of this hobby. I arrived at the conclusion that the speakers and the room must be considered together. One either finds a pair of speakers that work well with the room, or tailor the room to suit the speakers. I started with the room about 17 years ago, having an idea the type of speakers I would want to have eventually. I then built the speakers, using the most flexible form factor possible. That is, midrange and treble horns and bass reflex (horn loaded bass takes up too much space), with active crossover and multiamp. This allowed me to experiment with different drivers, crossover parameters, amplification etc. The number of possible combinations is huge, but I was guided by technical data to predict the outcome. What I have today is not "perfect", but I doubt I would have been able to achieve the sound I have with commercially available products. Not that my speakers are "better" than any high end commercial product, but I am able to get the speakers to work well with the room, and to satisfy my particular requirements. The journey continues.....
Well, I suppose we all like new things..
A different taste.
in all honesty, most speakers have something others don’t and vice versa. There are no bad speakers, just different.
been listening to Harbeth, ATC, Boenicke, Diptyque and for my taste Boenicke is what does least for me. Good for in a space where you want speakers to “disappear” but overpriced. Diptyque ( new DP140 ) they play certain genres outstanding but you don’t wanna play rock or bass heavy music on them. ATC avtives, ( SCM50) they surprised me with their composure, detail, attack, they wowed me with a certain song “Bon Iver - Perth” a song that can sound as if it’s badly recorded but on ATC actives woow, an orgasm to the ears. On the other hand they seem to be speakers that want to be played LOUD. Harbeth ( 40.2 anniversary ) seems like the all round speaker.
Compared to my Cornwalls rather similar in that way but a bit more detailed top end, and tighter bass area. But maybe a bit less dynamic than the Cornwalls.
I can get the Harbeths for 12k ( the new 40.3 cost 22k in stores here and supposedly almost same speaker)
so yeah, do we keep autitioning speakers in stores ? But getting tired of that + I don’t know how relevant those demos were. For example sometimes in stores they are setup so badly. only a demo ( a week or more ) in your own room is relevant, but most shops are ofcourse not willing to be constantly hauling speakers to everyone s house..
So yeah it’s rather difficult. On the other hand, I can’t imagine what’s it’s like to audition DACS
Very impressive. Reminds me a bit of a speaker built in Holland that I plan to visit some time.
Their perfection endures... until it falters.
The satisfaction or perception of perfection regarding a loudspeaker, or any object for that matter, depends on individual preferences, needs, and expectations. There isn't a one-size-fits-all answer to determine if a loudspeaker is perfect for someone, It's essential to consider what aspects of a loudspeaker matter most to you—whether it's the audio quality, size, appearance, brand, or any other factor that influences your satisfaction. Ultimately, a loudspeaker is perfect for you if it meets your specific requirements and preferences, providing the experience you seek in your audio equipment.
The satisfaction or perception of perfection regarding a loudspeaker, or any object for that matter, depends on individual preferences, needs, and expectations. There isn't a one-size-fits-all answer to determine if a loudspeaker is perfect for someone, It's essential to consider what aspects of a loudspeaker matter most to you—whether it's the audio quality, size, appearance, brand, or any other factor that influences your satisfaction. Ultimately, a loudspeaker is perfect for you if it meets your specific requirements and preferences, providing the experience you seek in your audio equipment.
Jazzman53
Well-Known Member
I'm wondering if that's a commercially marketed speaker or a one-off that some very talented person built. I'm guessing it's electrically segmented (otherwise it's flat panel would be very beamy). It's a beautiful speaker, driven with a valve amp and it probably sounds as good as it looks!
It's pretty common to segment wire-stator ESLs to widen the dispersion pattern but most commercial ones (Audiostatic comes to mind) add a separate/narrow tweeter segment or [at most] separate midrange and tweeter segments. Three segments are sufficient to eliminate the "head-in-a-vice" beaming effect, and it's less labor and cost than adding multiple additional segments.
My panel is symmetrically segmented about it's centerline, using 15 six-wire groups--- consisting of a single 6-wire center segment for the top octave, and seven left/right paired segments on either side, in 7+1+7 symmetry. This arrangement produces a cylindrical wavefront with smoother trending dispersion than would be achievable using fewer segments.
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The Blanco Nu is a commercial product but I guess probably from a one-man-band.
I've found this brief review and description, but the website quoted no longer exists. However the builder has a Facebook presence
Your description is far too technical for me. I've only owned 2 ESLs. I didn't like the Martin Logan Expression 13A (more accurately, it didn't like my room), but for some strange reason, the QUAD 2905 (with 2912 mods) sounded pretty amazing in exactly the same position.
Blanko speaker NU loudspeakers – M & S | Ultimate High-Fidelity
www.monoandstereo.com
Peter
You can see what the website looked like using the internet archive (archive.org) -The Blanco Nu is a commercial product but I guess probably from a one-man-band.
I've found this brief review and description, but the website quoted no longer exists. However the builder has a Facebook presence
Your description is far too technical for me. I've only owned 2 ESLs. I didn't like the Martin Logan Expression 13A (more accurately, it didn't like my room), but for some strange reason, the QUAD 2905 (with 2912 mods) sounded pretty amazing in exactly the same position.
Blanko speaker NU loudspeakers – M & S | Ultimate High-Fidelity
Peter
https://web.archive.org/web/20190328140941/http://www.blanko.nu/?lang=en
Indeed, most any speaker can come across sounding "off" if only heard once - not least at a show. I've heard several ATC models in different contexts sounding anything but "lean and bright" - that's not at all their inherent imprinting from what I've heard.
My point is that not least actively configured they're different animals compared to many if not most passively configured hifi-speakers. Actively you have better driver control, that's undisputable, with dedicated amp channels connected directly (i.e.: sans intervening passive crossovers) to each driver segment, and coupled with the very low distortion ATC drive units it translates sonically into something other than typical, passive speakers. My guess is some may feel that difference to be rather striking and are overwhelmed even by the blunt clarity, resolving capabilities and dynamic prowess, which may at first be considered too much of a deal and perhaps stand in the way of "musical relaxation."
From my chair though (and this is my second point), being habitually exposed to the sound of my own, also actively configured setup, properly implemented ATC speakers don't come across as a substantially different sonic meal, but rather as delivering a very balanced, coherent and honest presentation. This is why I feel singling them out as the "odd duck" out of the pro sector must be made relative to one's vantage point.
It's not a trait of passive speakers per se, but being most hifi-speakers are passively configured - by a mile - and that a large segment of them are voiced with a focus on details as described earlier, it is - to my ears - how a lot of passive speakers are actually biased sonically.
I've never heard of PranaFidelity speakers, but have done a bit of reading up on them. Some of the takeaways on their sound is Jason's Stereophile show coverage and your own elaborate take on this site, none of which really point me in a conclusive direction as to their sonic M.O.
I can say though that the midrange presentation as heard from ATC's massive-magnet 3" midrange dome (380 - 3.8kHz) and the also behemoth, landmine sized and 23.5 pound EV compression driver coupled to a large format horn of my own speakers (~600Hz on up, with central to lower mids from dual 15" woofers as well) - each of them actively coupled and still with their individual characteristics - will as well differ to the midrange presented by a passively configured 6" coned woofer/midrange (coupled to a dome tweeter). Some of the traits described can be shared in some form over a variety of driver platforms, but that's where the similarities end.
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As I understand ATC, their smaller ones (40 and below) are designed primarily as domestic speakers. 50 and up are designed for pro studio use and less good in the home, unless you want to have the warts and all shouted at you. This is what the engineer needs to do his job of fixing as many problems as he can before the master tapes are produced and sent to the pressing and streaming houses.
I didn't like my ATC 50 Actives (after KEF Reference 107) and it was a massive and refreshing relief to sell them in favour of Avantgarde Unos. I spotted these horn speakers from an excellent Stereophile review that described EXACTLY what I wanted to hear from my system. They were later chosen as Stereophile's Speaker of the Year. I'm now on my third pair of AG speakers, but importantly my room suits horns in a way that it doesn't suit electrostatics - a fact of life I learned expensively after buying a pair of Martin Logans!
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Speakers inherently have more movement than other components, and have to move appropriate amounts of air within a room at varying frequencies. In that regard, speakers can cause more degradation to the signal than most components from the sheer distance of their motion cycle. The amount of air they move also has to be well matched to the particular parameters of a given room. There are an awful lot of speakers that would be fantastic in a different space than the one they reside in. It's very easy (and very common) to overwhelm a room with bass output that's disproportionate to the music (IMHO). Usually most notable as the volume levels increase. Other speakers have the opposite problem are simply too small for a given room, but that's a bit easier to overcome with well placed subwoofers. I also believe every recording has an optimal volume level, so the speakers need to perform well at all reasonable volume levels to suit my needs.
With that said, are my speakers perfect to my ears and in my room? "Perfect" is unobtanium IMO, so the accurate answer is a hard "no"...not perfect. However they've had a profound musical and easy to listen to clarity from the start that has revealed perceived deficiencies that allowed me to hear and address them over the years. Amplifier mods and preamp component upgrades, speaker placement, wire changes, system reconfiguration (tube/solid state hybrid bi-amping), and general minor tweaks that have contributed to bringing the system to a level that I now consider "see through", and I'm satisfied with what I'm hearing within the range of music types, recordings, and volume levels I listen to.
For years I've felt this system was in the "good" to "very good" performance range with elements of "excellence" in the mids, but there were some limitations with what recordings I could really enjoy at all volumes I listen to. There was a minor trace of some treble "schmutz" at higher volumes on some recordings that I found hard to tolerate, so I either avoided those recordings or kept the volume lower. Some experimenting with cable changes showed some promise in resolving most of that concern, and I finally settled on some Furutech cables that I felt were the "Goldilocks" choice. The addition of pure copper inputs were part of that whole upgrade.
There was also a bit bass flabbiness that showed itself at higher volumes. I had always thought some of that was just my room and floor resonating, but when I reconfigured the system from a vertical bi-amp setup with identical tube amps on each side to a hybrid bi-amp setup using the twin tube amps on the mids/tweeters, and a solid state amp on the woofers to a horizontal bi-amp configuration, that issue improved a lot. Bypassing the passive low pass woofer crossover, and adding an active low pass crossover at 80hz brought the bass to another level. Bass is now excellent when the speakers are placed appropriately, plus I have the flexibility to fine tune the crossover frequency and woofer output relative to the mids and tweeters. The whole bass range is excellent, and I'm quite pleased with it...any former areas of concern are no more.
The hybrid tube/solid state bi-amp configuration also brought improvements to clarity across the board, likely due to the tubes only driving an 8 ohm load now, vs the previous 4 ohm load. The speakers are largely the same speakers they were, but with some enhancements to the woofer crossover . It's not possible to acknowledge the contribution of the speakers to the overall improvement in sound quality without acknowledging the contributions of the whole system. So if you've read this far, they're still not perfect, but the speakers in this room, as mated to the current system are a solid A+ in my book. I happily listen to just about everything in my repertoire at whatever reasonable volume I want, and it all sounds great, so mission accomplished!
With that said, are my speakers perfect to my ears and in my room? "Perfect" is unobtanium IMO, so the accurate answer is a hard "no"...not perfect. However they've had a profound musical and easy to listen to clarity from the start that has revealed perceived deficiencies that allowed me to hear and address them over the years. Amplifier mods and preamp component upgrades, speaker placement, wire changes, system reconfiguration (tube/solid state hybrid bi-amping), and general minor tweaks that have contributed to bringing the system to a level that I now consider "see through", and I'm satisfied with what I'm hearing within the range of music types, recordings, and volume levels I listen to.
For years I've felt this system was in the "good" to "very good" performance range with elements of "excellence" in the mids, but there were some limitations with what recordings I could really enjoy at all volumes I listen to. There was a minor trace of some treble "schmutz" at higher volumes on some recordings that I found hard to tolerate, so I either avoided those recordings or kept the volume lower. Some experimenting with cable changes showed some promise in resolving most of that concern, and I finally settled on some Furutech cables that I felt were the "Goldilocks" choice. The addition of pure copper inputs were part of that whole upgrade.
There was also a bit bass flabbiness that showed itself at higher volumes. I had always thought some of that was just my room and floor resonating, but when I reconfigured the system from a vertical bi-amp setup with identical tube amps on each side to a hybrid bi-amp setup using the twin tube amps on the mids/tweeters, and a solid state amp on the woofers to a horizontal bi-amp configuration, that issue improved a lot. Bypassing the passive low pass woofer crossover, and adding an active low pass crossover at 80hz brought the bass to another level. Bass is now excellent when the speakers are placed appropriately, plus I have the flexibility to fine tune the crossover frequency and woofer output relative to the mids and tweeters. The whole bass range is excellent, and I'm quite pleased with it...any former areas of concern are no more.
The hybrid tube/solid state bi-amp configuration also brought improvements to clarity across the board, likely due to the tubes only driving an 8 ohm load now, vs the previous 4 ohm load. The speakers are largely the same speakers they were, but with some enhancements to the woofer crossover . It's not possible to acknowledge the contribution of the speakers to the overall improvement in sound quality without acknowledging the contributions of the whole system. So if you've read this far, they're still not perfect, but the speakers in this room, as mated to the current system are a solid A+ in my book. I happily listen to just about everything in my repertoire at whatever reasonable volume I want, and it all sounds great, so mission accomplished!
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I would say that my speakers are giving me the “sonic characteristics” (“house sound”?) that I am looking for at this point.
My mid- to high-ish end journey has taken me from Harbeth 30.2/HSU subs/BHK 300s - then wanting something with more “punch” to Focal Kanta 3s. Then an upgrade in the same direction to Rockport Atria ii’s/REL/D’Agostino Progressive Integrated. Was quite happy until oddly enough I bought a pair of Tannoy Mini Autographs for my bedroom (w/REL/Naim UnitiAtom) and discovered an entirely different approach to sound reproduction than Focal/Rockport/Magico:Wilson, et al. I went on the hunt to hear bigger Tannoy’s. I auditioned Kensington/Pathos hybrid combo which I ended up purchasing.
As incredible as these other brands are (I mention them because my listening experience is mostly of them, my perspective as a performing musician there was always felt there was something inauthentic about the “pinpoint” soundstage accuracy these brands produce so incredibly well. Maybe it’s because I’m a classical musician and more used to a live “blend” on a stage than one might hear with non-acoustic music being engineered through multiple speakers in performance. In any case, for now they suit my taste. (Which is not to say I don’t love a good Jethro Tull session).
There may be other Tannoys or brands which do it better, but so far every other add to my system (most recently a Sean Jacobs DC4/ACR6 LPS for my DAVE - amazing) has reinforced and added to what I seem to be looking for these days. Next year…who knows?
My mid- to high-ish end journey has taken me from Harbeth 30.2/HSU subs/BHK 300s - then wanting something with more “punch” to Focal Kanta 3s. Then an upgrade in the same direction to Rockport Atria ii’s/REL/D’Agostino Progressive Integrated. Was quite happy until oddly enough I bought a pair of Tannoy Mini Autographs for my bedroom (w/REL/Naim UnitiAtom) and discovered an entirely different approach to sound reproduction than Focal/Rockport/Magico:Wilson, et al. I went on the hunt to hear bigger Tannoy’s. I auditioned Kensington/Pathos hybrid combo which I ended up purchasing.
As incredible as these other brands are (I mention them because my listening experience is mostly of them, my perspective as a performing musician there was always felt there was something inauthentic about the “pinpoint” soundstage accuracy these brands produce so incredibly well. Maybe it’s because I’m a classical musician and more used to a live “blend” on a stage than one might hear with non-acoustic music being engineered through multiple speakers in performance. In any case, for now they suit my taste. (Which is not to say I don’t love a good Jethro Tull session).
There may be other Tannoys or brands which do it better, but so far every other add to my system (most recently a Sean Jacobs DC4/ACR6 LPS for my DAVE - amazing) has reinforced and added to what I seem to be looking for these days. Next year…who knows?
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The perfect speakers for me, and for many others given the opportunity to truly hear them, are speakers from the Vivid Audio Giya series. Having lived with many fine speakers over the years, nothing has brought me the sheer joy I am receiving from the Vivid's. They satisfy the heart and the head. Everything is perfect in terms of faithfully reproducing the true sounds of instruments (super flat frequency response). And the fun they bring dynamically, and the immersive experience the amazing imaging provides, is just at another level. If you want to love your audio system - the Vivid's are it.
I am very happy with my 3 speaker and cannot find better for me.
Only 2 speakers I will have interest
Gobel Epoque Aeon Reference and Clarisys
Only 2 speakers I will have interest
Gobel Epoque Aeon Reference and Clarisys
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