Just an observation

[Joe Galbraith]

I have noticed a disturbing (at least to me anyway) trend creeping into the discussions here at WBF. I read and post exclusively here, having abandoned AudiogoN for a variety of reasons. I started reading the forums at AudiogoN because at the time, it was that Audio Asylum had turned into a Wild West saloon full of drunks looking to pick a fight.

That same mentality began creeping into the forums at AudiogoN. We all know what I am talking about: that "mine's bigger, my way is the right way and you are an idiot if you don't see it that way", and, the need to have the last word on every subject even if it means beating an issue to death.

I have found WBF to be an oasis from that bit of keyboard muscle nonsense, until recently. I have noticed a marked uptick in the numbers of arguments, banishments, warnings, people taking their ball and going home, etc. We can disagree and still debate, but please, stop with the personal attacks, sniping and denigrating of opinions that don't quite meet your expectations.

Let's keep WBF the respectful high end forum that it is.

...end of rant

 

[Steve williams]

I agree Joe.

Thanks for the rant and point made

 

[amirm]

Very well said. No doubt the topics that we discuss are near and dear to our hearts. When what we believe is questioned, natural reaction is to let emotion seep through the keyboard. On many other forums that is the norm so one doesn’t think twice about letting that rule the discussion and interactions with other members. But here, on WBF Forum, our goal is to not do that. That is one of the top reasons WBF exists. Place where we can “never have a bad day reading a forum.”

It is a difficult thing to ask members to do. However, it is a useful discipline not just here, but in life in general. Before you hit that post button, just pause for a couple of seconds. Just a couple of seconds and think if what you are writing is personal in nature and could be taken as such. If so, go back and delete/change that part of the text. Still state your technical/personal point of view but don’t attack the other guy’s manhood .

No matter what we do, WBF will not be a sterile place devoid of any such matters. It is an ideal to be sure. But let’s strive for it. Because striving alone will get us in a far better place than any other forum out there.

Thanks for everyone’s support to create the friendliest and knowledgeable forum we know how.

 

[Joe Whip]

Maybe some need to chant to themselves (or out loud for that matter) before posting that "it is just audio, it is just audio" to take off that nasty edge. I have opinions on a variety of subjects here and other forums ( I do hate the curve after all) but it is not life and death. No one is forcing anyone to change their beliefs or buying habits just because they post something in response to your opinions, even if they are held with such religious fervor as is common on too many of these types of sites. It is just audio, it is just audio! Repeat after me.........

 

[LL21]

Agree with Joe...good post.

 

[bonzo75]

Those who argue are like this http://www.theonion.com/articles/ho...lMarketing&utm_campaign=LinkPreview:1:Default

 

[marty]

Those who argue are like this http://www.theonion.com/articles/ho...lMarketing&utm_campaign=LinkPreview:1:Default

This may be the best post of the year.

Sadly, my own observation is that so much of the rich discussion material of the past few years is diminishing at an alarming rate on WBF. While its true that if I see another post on grounding I'm gonna shoot myself, I'm wondering if all the good stuff has disappeared? Surely not everything that can be said has been said on all topics audio and music? Scrolling through the discussion pages over the past few years finds so many interesting threads with thoughtful comments. Or perhaps we're just getting to the point where aging of the community and apathy is becoming the norm? Personally, I miss some of the voices, even the curmudgeons, who used to frequent the WBF. It made things lively and fun. I support the "be a gentlemen policy at all times", but I wonder if the WBF shut down some voices too soon? Or maybe I'm just grumpy because it appears that shortly, we won't even have Radio Shack to kick around anymore?

 

[bonzo75]

This is a bit along the same lines http://www.theonion.com/articles/everything-a-goddamn-ordeal-in-area-family,3543/

 

[Peter Breuninger]

This may be the best post of the year.

Sadly, my own observation is that so much of the rich discussion material of the past few years is diminishing at an alarming rate on WBF. While its true that if I see another post on grounding I'm gonna shoot myself, I'm wondering if all the good stuff has disappeared? Surely not everything that can be said has been said on all topics audio and music? Scrolling through the discussion pages over the past few years finds so many interesting threads with thoughtful comments. Or perhaps we're just getting to the point where aging of the community and apathy is becoming the norm? Personally, I miss some of the voices, even the curmudgeons, who used to frequent the WBF. It made things lively and fun. I support the "be a gentlemen policy at all times", but I wonder if the WBF shut down some voices too soon? Or maybe I'm just grumpy because it appears that shortly, we won't even have Radio Shack to kick around anymore?

Marty,

I've tried to get those other voices back here. To say I've been stopped dead in my tracks is about right, by those voices not by the mgmt here. I have suggested a new forum to some of those "voices" and they seem to be very interested. I am reminded by the movie Dark Crystal, where the race became divided and then was united in happiness.

 

[spiritofmusic]

Marty, since I'm a prime mover in the grounding debate, please don't shoot y'self on account of me! Tbh, I think a lot of us, incl me, need to chill out a lot more. I've had a run in w/a guy subsequently barred from the forum, and despite his highly irritating conversation w/me, I wouldn't have wanted him gone.
For instance, on the Entreq/Troy threads, the idea of polishing Stillpoints for greater performance has arisen, and the defenders of the policy are understandably overcompensating twds those who are unsurprisingly slating the concept.
Maybe we all need to step back and realise this hobby is pretty impenetrable to those who think we're all flaky and profligate w/our cash, and such arguments wouldn't endear us to the audio-skeptical.
I particularly feel it's sad that things often boil down to an irreparable objective/subjective schism. If only more of us realised that the high end and tech that enhances our listening enjoyment sits right on the divide btwn the two.
My only policy for barring individuals would be those who are manufacturers/dealers using space to in effect advertise for free.

 

[Peter Breuninger]

I will pipe up here and say that no tier one audio reviewer has based his career on "grounding devices".

 

[Geardaddy]

Political correctness (and the censorship that inevitably follows) is a prelude to fascism. The Asylum, despite its episodic vulgarity, is still a relative bastion of free speech. I will take the saloon with bottles flying over a bunch of tight sphinctered PC ninnies any day.

 

[Geardaddy]

I will pipe up here and say that no tier one audio reviewer has based his career on "grounding devices".

Ouch. What is it about grounding that makes it such a divisive topic? I for one love TBG and his professorial eccentricities and zeal and consider him a tier one reviewer (if indeed such a pyramid exists)....

 

[Johnny Vinyl]

What's a tier one reviewer?

 

[Joe Galbraith]

Political correctness (and the censorship that inevitably follows) is a prelude to fascism. The Asylum, despite its episodic vulgarity, is still a relative bastion of free speech. I will take the saloon with bottles flying over a bunch of tight sphinctered PC ninnies any day.

The prosecution rests your honor. Not asking for political correctness (I'm probably one of the least PC people on the planet), but I do think a little respect and restraint is in order when someone's opinion or experience does not mesh with yours. My initial observation was only that the same things that afflict AudiogoN are finding their way here. AudiogoN and AA still exist for people who wish to participate in the bottle throwing. WBF has never been about that. We all come at this hobby from different perspectives and bring our life experiences and preferences with us. That's great and the way it should be. We all have something to contribute here and should be able to get our point of view across like adults without kicking the sand out of the box and all over the playground.

 

[Audiocrack]

Let me start with mentioning that I totally agree with Joe who started this thread: I have often remarked in various threads that we should be much more tolerant on the WBF. Part of the fun of our hobby is that we value different aspects of music reproduction and hear differently. Let us be happy about the fact that members share their experiences on WBF, even if we might disagree with eachother.

Now that Marty and Peter explicitly refer to the topic "grounding' in this thread and because I started two threads regarding Tripoint audio products on the WBF, I would like to add the following. The only reason I started those two threads is my firm belief that 'grounding' is essential to get the best out of our audio systems. This belief is based on my own experience with the following three different Tripoint products in my two (different) systems: the Troy signature, the Troy signature se and the emperor.

Offcourse you do not have to believe me but please let me add the following facts:

- The Troy (se) was tested by three different audio reviewers in three different parts of the world (Asia, USA and Europe). All three reviewers were seriously impressed.
- I was quite amazed when Miguel informed me about how many Troys he has sold sofar. No, I will not disclose any numbers but the number was much higher than I had ever expected. Very rarely you see any of the Tipoint devices come up for sale on the second hand market. It is hard to believe that all those users are fools and hear improvements that are not really there,don't you think?
- Various Entreq products (BTW, I have no experience with any of these) were favourably tested by several reviewers, one of which is Roy Gregory who I consider as a 'tier one' reviewer, although I am not quite sure what that exactly means in the view of Peter.

Marty and Peter, do you have any experience with any of the mentioned products, ideally in you own set ups, that is under controlled circumstances? Might it be that many 'tier one' reviewers were (up till recently?) not aware of or familar with the concept of 'grounding'? Or might it be that a lot of 'top tier' audio reviewers were/are too narrow minded to give this concept serious thought, let alone experience it and publish about their experiences?

Peter, I will visit the Munich high end show this year. May I presume you will be visiting as well? I gladly invite you to come over and have a listen to my two systems and find out what a profound effect the emperor has on the sound quality. I am still flabbergasted about it's impact but offcourse you will be the judge!

Let me end with the following statement: luckily everybody is completely free in the choice of audio components and in her/his audio beliefs. Let us be happy about this!

Happy listening to everybody.

 

[FrantzM]

Hi

WBF is trying its best and succeeding (IMO) at keeping the difficult balancing act of remaining open-minded , respectful and respectable. A tough act. I do think that at times the PC tendency is pushed to extreme. Yet there remains room for those who abide to the code of conduct to voice an opinion more so than many other fora.

I would like the management to keep it up and to somewhat rethink about what we aimed at the beginning. We had some really great industry experts here. They have for the most part departed. We need to see how they (or at least some of them) can come back. I have seen lately a tendency to favor manufacturers over technicians or scientists. Not a good trend IMO. WBF shouldn't become a free marketing pass for manufacturers. Criticisms should be encouraged as long as it abides to the general philosophy of WBF, i-e politeness, sticking to the facts and addressing the post not the poster ...

Keep it up Gents it is a very good forum... One of the best fora on the Internet IMO.

 

[Joe Whip]

I agree. I would add though that being respectful is not being PC.

 

[es347]

Those who argue are like this http://www.theonion.com/articles/ho...lMarketing&utm_campaign=LinkPreview:1:Default

..amazing the balls a guy can grow in anonymity...sad

 

[es347]

I will pipe up here and say that no tier one audio reviewer has based his career on "grounding devices".

..nor anything mfd by SR