Just how does one learn to listen?

[Kingrex]

Quite a few years ago when I got back into audio, Emmanuel with First Sound Audio came to my house. He brought a preamp and I purchased it on the spot. Great preamp. I still have it. I have upgraded it 3 times and love it. Its a foundation piece for me. Anyhow, I called a couple days later and said something sounded off. He said yea, he heard an anomaly too. He came back to my house with basically a bunch of sets of Ching Chang power cords. One by one he removed the supposed audiophile brands I had in. At first I was not sure I liked it. He said he felt it was going in the right direction and to let him keep going. Every time he changed a cable it felt like the treble was going away. It was the last cable he removed, I think it went to my DAC. It all clicked into place. It was just obvious this was so much better. We both looked at each other in awe. It was a Holly Cow moment.

Having someone to guide you and show you what is right is a big help. Emmanuel does not sell cables. He had no skin in this. The cords were about $22 a piece. But they changed my perception on what to listen for in a stereo system. And having him there to walk it through was such a benefit. Without him there, I don't know I would have the basic foundation of what to listen for, or how to listen and understand what I am hearing.

As time has gone on, I have heard a lot of systems at a lot of places. That also helps. You hear what other systems do, then listen to your own and get a better understanding where it is at. I don't think audio shows are the right place. Stores really are not either. Its friends or other audiophile homes where you have a couple drinks and chill for long enough to really hear what is going on. This seems to help lay a ground work for what a stereo can do.

I really don't think going to live music is a way to learn either. That to me is a much more advanced form of "Listening". Now you are shaping the sound. At first you need to understanding what distortions sound like. What boost or suck outs sound like. What veiling sounds like. Once you understand these, you can move onto more advanced techniques of shaping the sound to your taste.

 

[PeterA]

Rex, that’s an interesting post. I like the story about the Ching Cheng power cords and the guidance from this guy.

Could you explain what “shaping the sound” means when you go to listen to live music? I used to use that phrase when I was doing things like changing speaker orientation or experimenting with footers and cables and power cords.

 

[Ron Resnick]

He came back to my house with basically a bunch of sets of Ching Chang power cords. One by one he removed the supposed audiophile brands I had in. At first I was not sure I liked it. He said he felt it was going in the right direction and to let him keep going. Every time he changed a cable it felt like the treble was going away. It was the last cable he removed, I think it went to my DAC. It all clicked into place. It was just obvious this was so much better.

I, too, think this is an interesting report, Rex.

Do you think that the audiophile brands were somehow emphasizing the treble frequencies?

 

[dcathro]

Having someone to guide you and show you what is right is a big help. Emmanuel does not sell cables. He had no skin in this. The cords were about $22 a piece. But they changed my perception on what to listen for in a stereo system. And having him there to walk it through was such a benefit. Without him there, I don't know I would have the basic foundation of what to listen for, or how to listen and understand what I am hearing.

I think that having a teacher or Guru can be very helpful - you just have to find the right one

I had been an audiophile for 20 years when I met the person who taught me how to listen. I had a very high end system for the time, much more expensive than his, yet he was able over time to show me why his was more engaging and interesting to listen to. At first, I just didn't get it, but eventually I realized that his system made music, while mine had all the hifi attributes. I realized that I had never really know what I was after other than "more" - more detail, clarity, soundstage, bass, etc. From that moment on I started to look for musical attributes.

 

[Kingrex]

Rex, that’s an interesting post. I like the story about the Ching Cheng power cords and the guidance from this guy.

Could you explain what “shaping the sound” means when you go to listen to live music? I used to use that phrase when I was doing things like changing speaker orientation or experimenting with footers and cables and power cords.

I, too, think this is an interesting report, Rex.

Do you think that the audiophile brands were somehow emphasizing the treble frequencies?

I feel I am walking on thin ice here.
I think we all agree live music is something no stereo has fully recreated. Some audio systems get much closer than others. Trying to build a system to get as close to the sound of live music is different than understanding when you have a bass suck out or you have some noise that is veiling frequency bands.
My comment about shaping the sound towards live, or using live music to tune your equipment to present more that way, is an appreciation of a more precision skill needed to really hear what the foundation equipment is doing, and what it is capable of doing. Then using devices such as cords and cables, footer, stands, filters etc to push the equipment in a direction. Using live music to tune your stereo towards the sound of live music is the next level of listening. If you can do that, you already know how to listen.

The first level of listening, or learning to listen is the foundation. In the first level of learning to listen you are developing skills to hear what a footer or cable is doing. To hear the clarity and focus, or the smearing, or the frequency alteration. To better understand if your experiencing give and take, a change and not an improvement, or did it all around get better with no losses. And with that better, what overall direction did it go. Its really easy to get caught up in, the cymbals are more pronounced so that is good, right. Well, is it. Are the cymbals supposed to be that pronounced in the source material you are playing. And if they are not, are you getting an unwanted high frequency peak that is resulting in fatigue at higher volume levels. Maybe the source material was not recorded with pronounced cymbals. But it sounds good to hear them, so you make a change and stick with it because you can hear them real well. I think that is a bit of what I was doing in the beginning. That is a lot of what Emmanuel pulled out when he put the Ching C in. But when it all clicked, it was a much more cohesive and natural presentation. It was more right all around. I was artificially adding what was not there and that was causing fatigue and probably distortions that were irritating at higher volume levels. Once that was gone, I could play my music at a louder level yet it was comfortable. And that is a tell tale sign your headed in the right direction, or your going def.
And my idea of audiophile power cords at the time were entry level cables from brand names that were in the $300 to $900 range. The Ching C now feed my tape deck equipment and TT speed controller. Most all my other cables are 12 awg or 10 awg stranded MTW/TEW Southwire with the phase and neutral twisted, the ground ran loose, Mylar over the top with dead soft silver from Rio Grand wrapping it down as a drain with tech flex over the top. And that is split bolted to the branch circuit from my panel. I don't have a duplex or male cord end. I only have a female cord end to plug into my equipment. And the cord ends are for the most part copper with no coating. I don't have any "audiophile" cables in my system at this time. At the moment I am very happy. But it has been 2 years since I have gone to a live show and I need to get to some. Just to enjoy, but to also understand where my system really is.

I hope I am not misunderstood in saying listening to live music is not the way to learn to listen. I find listening to live music is a way to set a foundation of knowledge to judge what your equipment is doing, and have a frame of reference of where it needs to go to get more to that live sound. If you are capable of doing that, you are already a good listener. And you also have a wealth of built up knowledge of what accessory devices are probably going to do to help get you to an outcome.

 

[Al M.]

I feel I am walking on thin ice here.
I think we all agree live music is something no stereo has fully recreated. Some audio systems get much closer than others. Trying to build a system to get as close to the sound of live music is different than understanding when you have a bass suck out or you have some noise that is veiling frequency bands.
My comment about shaping the sound towards live, or using live music to tune your equipment to present more that way, is an appreciation of a more precision skill needed to really hear what the foundation equipment is doing, and what it is capable of doing. Then using devices such as cords and cables, footer, stands, filters etc to push the equipment in a direction. Using live music to tune your stereo towards the sound of live music is the next level of listening. If you can do that, you already know how to listen.

The first level of listening, or learning to listen is the foundation. In the first level of learning to listen you are developing skills to hear what a footer or cable is doing. To hear the clarity and focus, or the smearing, or the frequency alteration. To better understand if your experiencing give and take, a change and not an improvement, or did it all around get better with no losses. And with that better, what overall direction did it go. Its really easy to get caught up in, the cymbals are more pronounced so that is good, right. Well, is it. Are the cymbals supposed to be that pronounced in the source material you are playing. And if they are not, are you getting an unwanted high frequency peak that is resulting in fatigue at higher volume levels. Maybe the source material was not recorded with pronounced cymbals. But it sounds good to hear them, so you make a change and stick with it because you can hear them real well. I think that is a bit of what I was doing in the beginning. That is a lot of what Emmanuel pulled out when he put the Ching C in. But when it all clicked, it was a much more cohesive and natural presentation. It was more right all around. I was artificially adding what was not there and that was causing fatigue and probably distortions that were irritating at higher volume levels. Once that was gone, I could play my music at a louder level yet it was comfortable. And that is a tell tale sign your headed in the right direction, or your going def.
And my idea of audiophile power cords at the time were entry level cables from brand names that were in the $300 to $900 range. The Ching C now feed my tape deck equipment and TT speed controller. Most all my other cables are 12 awg or 10 awg stranded MTW/TEW Southwire with the phase and neutral twisted, the ground ran loose, Mylar over the top with dead soft silver from Rio Grand wrapping it down as a drain with tech flex over the top. And that is split bolted to the branch circuit from my panel. I don't have a duplex or male cord end. I only have a female cord end to plug into my equipment. And the cord ends are for the most part copper with no coating. I don't have any "audiophile" cables in my system at this time. At the moment I am very happy. But it has been 2 years since I have gone to a live show and I need to get to some. Just to enjoy, but to also understand where my system really is.

I hope I am not misunderstood in saying listening to live music is not the way to learn to listen. I find listening to live music is a way to set a foundation of knowledge to judge what your equipment is doing, and have a frame of reference of where it needs to go to get more to that live sound. If you are capable of doing that, you are already a good listener. And you also have a wealth of built up knowledge of what accessory devices are probably going to do to help get you to an outcome.

I agree that tilting a tonal balance upwards in order to hear more (like in your cymbals example) is problematic.

My ZenWave copper power cords do not change the tonal balance from stock power cords, the sound is just more revealing, resolving and less strident at the same tonal balance.

I did hear audiophile power cords that tilt the tonal balance. I have avoided those.

 

[Gregadd]

Perhaps I should give my definition of audiophile recordings. I am not talking about sound effects. Pink Floyd is generally considered an audiophile. Yet it was released into the general population for its' musical content. It will teach you a lot.

 

[Lee]

I think there are two strong paths:

1. Take Jim Smith’s demo course RoomPlay Reference.
2. Find a recording team who does good work and see if you can work as a Production Assistant.

 

[microstrip]

(...) Philosophically, I already am averse to dissecting reproduced music into discrete audiophile attributes and hi-fi terms. Focusing on discrete audiophile attributes and hi-fi terms leads me away from where I want to be. If I am thinking about aspects and components of the sound, then I am not focusing on, let alone enjoying, the music. (...)

Ron,

IMHO we do not dissect reproduced music into discrete audiophile attributes and hi-fi terms when listening for enjoyment. However if we want to communicate to others what we were listening and transmit why we were enjoying we have to analyze sound and force us in a vocabulary that connects particular technical or subjective aspects of sound reproduction with what we have listened. I am sure that a reviewer does not listen careless for pleasure all the time ...

I was listening to the Billy Hart Trio "Live At the Cafe Damberd" a short time before writing this post. All I remember now is that it sounded great, great performance with plenty of energy and alive. I will need to re-listen, focusing in the proper discrete audiophile attributes and hi-fi terms if I want to make a description that can tell why to most audiophiles in this board.

 

[Kingrex]

Fishing is easier to explain. It was huge. And No, I'm not telling you where I caught it.

 

[Kingrex]

I tried using Military Specified silver coated copper 10 awg as branch circuits when i was starting out. I had it in for months before I ran across some OFC cord which I replaced it with. As soon as the cord went in, I heard how rich and thick the silvet mil spec was. It was a severe coloration. But it sounded all jucy and fat and I know people that still use it.

I used the cord for years and a friend got some too. It was better than stock at his place also. Then we got some Oyaide. Again, we heard a marked improvement.

My point is, sometimes you don't realize what is what till its different and your looking back.

 

[Elliot G.]

First one needs to realize that there is a difference between hearing and listening.

The ability to hear sounds/voice/noise etc. is something we are born with. The ability to pay attention, focus, concentrate on the same things is very different .
Walking into a room at an audio show with, noise, distractions, talking, air conditioning, doors opening and closing, people getting up and down is almost the opposite of listening although one could say they heard it.
One needs to ask oneself are they hearing or are they listening. Listening is a learned skill and can be improved and taught. Hearing you either can or you can't hear ( I don't want to get into a medical thing here but for the sake of this thread it is for the hearing )

I often ask myself why such diversity of opinions on the same thing in the same place at every show. IMO this may be a very strong factor.

In order to listen one must pay attention and be able to receive information and stimuli. For me this usually means few distractions. I don't want to hear non related items, noises, talking, eating, drinking etc. I want to focus on the sound of the music or the conversation etc. We all day dream, we all loose focus and it is very easy to do so when there is a lot of chaos happening.
How can one understand and appreciate high end audio when this chaos accompanies it? I can't.
Dividing of your focus will change your perception and your response.

 

[dbeau]

First one needs to realize that there is a difference between hearing and listening.

The ability to hear sounds/voice/noise etc. is something we are born with. The ability to pay attention, focus, concentrate on the same things is very different .
Walking into a room at an audio show with, noise, distractions, talking, air conditioning, doors opening and closing, people getting up and down is almost the opposite of listening although one could say they heard it.
One needs to ask oneself are they hearing or are they listening. Listening is a learned skill and can be improved and taught. Hearing you either can or you can't hear ( I don't want to get into a medical thing here but for the sake of this thread it is for the hearing )

I often ask myself why such diversity of opinions on the same thing in the same place at every show. IMO this may be a very strong factor.

In order to listen one must pay attention and be able to receive information and stimuli. For me this usually means few distractions. I don't want to hear non related items, noises, talking, eating, drinking etc. I want to focus on the sound of the music or the conversation etc. We all day dream, we all loose focus and it is very easy to do so when there is a lot of chaos happening.
How can one understand and appreciate high end audio when this chaos accompanies it? I can't.
Dividing of your focus will change your perception and your response.

Agree on all your points.
However, I often am confronted by other sounds/noise in live venues and home while music occurring.
I can minimize distractions by "listening" through to focus "hearing" on the music - not perfect, but helps not lose the moment.

 

[Elliot G.]

Agree on all your points.
However, I often am confronted by other sounds/noise in live venues and home while music occurring.
I can minimize distractions by "listening" through to focus "hearing" on the music - not perfect, but helps not lose the moment.

its a learned skill and one that can be useful for sure. I think you will agree however that less is better when it comes to noise and distractions.

 

[Kingrex]

I often ask myself why such diversity of opinions on the same thing in the same place at every show. IMO this may be a very strong factor.

I know shows jar my system. I am so scattered from so much varied stimuli. I am in reaction mode only. I am not listening.

When I'm at a friends home, I hear better. I am better able to pick up on what is what. But I have no way to validate what I think I hear because I can't change a cable or footer to find out.

At Mikes with the Wadax, he was changing things. And doing as such with the focus on highlighting a specific source. That was very helpful in distinguishing what the Wadax was really doing. When I showed up early, Elliot and Mike just let it play as we talked and they did what they needed. I didn't really have a reference for what was Wadax and what was everything else. When Mike started changing servers, cables and mixing in vinyl, it became much more apparent what was Wadax and what was his overall system.

If you want to tie this to the learn the listen, it might be, it could be helpful to focus on one item and move within it, and around it with supporting device to better understand what the item under scrutiny is really doing.

I use to use digital to better understand my vinyl. Now I use tape to better understand both. Unfortunatly it has left me very flat on my perception of my vinyl. I hear all sorts going wrong and little right. Yet I am at a stand still on where to start. Especially since I think its my stand, cartridge and phono stage. All 3 are far from optimum. So where do you start. Because each will influence the other. The easiest is the cartridge or phono stage. I do have an Aidas Mammoth Gold MKII replacing my Hana ML on loan. After a day or two I really started to hear how the Mammoth is much more balanced and tonally correct. It definitely pulled back my vinyl from its current over emphisis of vocals and individual instruments. I was struggling to heat details. Not so much from noise. More from other stuff grabbing the spotlight. The Mammoth helps, but I'm still no where near how my tape lays out all the information in a very easy to digest and absorb all of it way. The tape is the gold standard and as I tweak my other sources. I am striving to attain that aspect of what I hear from the tape.

 

[Alrainbow]

Here is simple example we all can try
play any well known song at home on your setup
then in the car no ultra high end car but a good stock one
I’ll bet we hear what’s missing
what’s off in the mix and timbre just off.
yet it’s still musical
I’m far from pros but it’s obvious our home is better in many ways
now on headphone’s from your phone just tidal or local playback
again most times it’s still musical and has it’s own good n bad
this is a level of ability be it small or not

what people like Tima or Elliot n mike hear are much more of details that we all hear but don’t equate to its importance

 

[microstrip]

I think that having a teacher or Guru can be very helpful - you just have to find the right one (...)

I was lucky to met many such people in my life - I will just point a few such as Ricardo Franassovici of Absolute Sounds, Lew Johnson of Conrad Johnson or Peter McGrath of Wilson Audio - people with great expertise and ability to transmit audio messages. Talking with them freely at dinners or in social events were marks in my audio life.

But most of what I learned come from magazines, articles and books on the subject. These people showed me mainly new ways and new capabilities of stereo reproduction, that there are no boundaries in it, except our wish. And that for each door we open, we must close several others.

And I should not forget the influence of recording engineers, always intrinsic in their recordings.

 

[PYP]

When I was listening to Julian Lage's Worlds Fair it occurred to me that a solo acoustic instrument (in the hands of someone who can play anything on that instrument) is a good place to start purposeful listening. An acoustic guitar can sound pretty close to live in one's listening space and concentrating on just one instrument your attention can be focused on timbre and tone.

 

[tima]

First one needs to realize that there is a difference between hearing and listening.

The ability to hear sounds/voice/noise etc. is something we are born with. The ability to pay attention, focus, concentrate on the same things is very different .
Walking into a room at an audio show with, noise, distractions, talking, air conditioning, doors opening and closing, people getting up and down is almost the opposite of listening although one could say they heard it.
One needs to ask oneself are they hearing or are they listening. Listening is a learned skill and can be improved and taught. Hearing you either can or you can't hear ( I don't want to get into a medical thing here but for the sake of this thread it is for the hearing )

I often ask myself why such diversity of opinions on the same thing in the same place at every show. IMO this may be a very strong factor.

In order to listen one must pay attention and be able to receive information and stimuli. For me this usually means few distractions. I don't want to hear non related items, noises, talking, eating, drinking etc. I want to focus on the sound of the music or the conversation etc. We all day dream, we all loose focus and it is very easy to do so when there is a lot of chaos happening.
How can one understand and appreciate high end audio when this chaos accompanies it? I can't.
Dividing of your focus will change your perception and your response.

Assuming one can hear, hearing happens. Sound pressure waves act upon the hearing system and the brain receves electrical signals from the ear. You don't need to be awake to hear.

Listening is intentional. One intends to receive sound, one is receptive to sound, often specific sound. One may hear sound that is other than the specific sound one wants to hear and that is distracting and yes, can divide attention or break attention to specific sound.

Undistracted listening may either be focused or unfocused. Focused listening occurs more in the cerebral cortex - cognitive listening. Listening can also occur at what we might call an intuitive level, a non-cognitive level that is rooted in primitive limbic functions of awareness, deep in our lizard brain.

Imagine yourself talking with a friend while walking through a mall during the Holidays. You hear all sorts of sounds from all different directions but you are able to ignore those and listen to what your friend is saying. All of a sudden a musical group starts to play handbells and sing. Immediately, without the type focused listening of hearing your friend, without cognition, intuitively you know that is the sound of live music.

Sitting before your stereo, when one 'let's go' or loses focus while listening to music, consonance and dissonance will light up limbic systems responsible for pleasureable and negative emotions. The non-cognitive experience of music can trigger areas in the brain sufficient to cause the release of endorphins -- when they reach the limbic system’s opioid receptors, feelings of satisfaction ensue.

The intuitive/cognitive balance can go both ways. If a component or a system breaks the fundamental rules of human hearing, our music-listening brain reaches a kind of tipping point where processing of music occurs less in limbic areas and more in the cerebral cortex. While listening to my stereo, if my ear/brain system detects distortion, for example an excess of third-order harmonics that cause increased loudness or forwardness from that trumpet section over there in right field, in an instant it can happen: focus is triggered, the eyes open and the non-inferential immediacy of our musical enjoyment collapses.

 

[Rt66indierock]

Great post Tang. For me a big moment came when member VLS with others just heard my system and was getting up to leave and say goodbye. I listened to his voice and then closed my eyes and listened some more. That’s when I fully realized about pinpoint imaging and the presentation of the sound of his voice in my room. That experience corresponded with my complete rethinking about system set up with the guidance from ddk for a more natural presentation of my existing gear. Observation of the natural world is very important.

Good comment. This is one of the things I was taught as a teenager. Listen with your eyes open, then listen with closed. Take your glasses off and listen again then close your eyes and listen. If all four correlate, then you are close.