KeithR's "Dream Speaker" Search

[Audiophile Bill]

Bill, By "oomph", I mean the weight, impact, articulation, and scale of real instruments in the lower frequencies like the cello and piano I heard the other night up close and in a small room. Perhaps we mean different things. I consider microdynamic fluctuations to be a different attribute and one that the General's Pnoes may do very differently than good large cone dynamic speakers. I would love to hear his system some day to learn something new. I was responding to what I think Ron means by the term as he referenced Keith's preference for the speaker typology he has described in this thread.

I mentioned Madfloyd's Magico M Pro and CAT amplifier combination, plus Rockitman's Wilson X2? and Pass XS150 amplifier combination as two specific examples of systems that can reproduce that quality of "oomph" convincingly. I mentioned those examples because I have heard them and those two systems are described on this forum. My lesser Magico Q3 and Pass XA.5 combination can not do what those larger more accomplished combinations can do. I was also not specifically talking about tone.

I'd rather not discuss my thoughts about the tone of real instruments relative to audio systems lest Bonzo jump on me yet again for not having sufficient experience or, god forbid, comparing the sound of live instruments to reproduced music on audio systems. That is becoming tiresome. I respect and admire Kedar's approach to the hobby and enjoy reading about his travels and thoughts on audio. I do not criticize his views, yet, Kedar seems to take pleasure in telling me and others what I don't know and how I should change my approach. I fully realize that I have much to learn about this hobby.

I made a comment in support of Ron's post describing Keith's preference with a specific example of live music. That was my only intension. I do not wish to take this thread further off the topic of Keith's speaker search.

Hi Peter,

Understood. I think I get your definition as I had that with my Focal Utopias driven by Analog Domain. The BD Design Swing however makes my Focals oomph seem wimpy lol. The body and solidity of Mr Honegger’s cello last night was breathtaking on the BD.

Cheers

 

[bonzo75]

Hi Peter,

Understood. I think I get your definition as I had that with my Focal Utopias driven by Analog Domain. The BD Design Swing however makes my Focals oomph seem wimpy lol. The body and solidity of Mr Honegger’s cello last night was breathtaking on the BD.

Cheers

You also drove those focals with Krell fpb 750. The only ones who appreciated that loud bass were the cats who would run away

 

[Audiophile Bill]

You also drove those focals with Krell fpb 750. The only ones who appreciated that loud bass were the cats who would run away

Hehe. They could oomph alright lol.

That said you wait till you here the current state of play in the oomph department chez Bill.

 

[spiritofmusic]

So Bill, re Oomph, how do these Swings compare to the Pnoes, or even the Gran Sferas we heard in Dec at The General's?

Much as I loved those Sferas, and the Hadrons to some extent, and respect the Pnoes, upper bass impact is not their forté in my humble opinion.

 

[Audiophile Bill]

So Bill, re Oomph, how do these Swings compare to the Pnoes, or even the Gran Sferas we heard in Dec at The General's?

Much as I loved those Sferas, and the Hadrons to some extent, and respect the Pnoes, upper bass impact is not their forté in my humble opinion.

Regarding oomph I would say Swings take all comers in that comparison. Swings are -3dB 25hz and have a 100dB woofer fed several hundred watts actively into front loaded horn. It is the real deal Marc.

 

[Audiophile Bill]

Regarding oomph I would say Swings take all comers in that comparison. Swings are -3dB 25hz and have a 100dB woofer fed several hundred watts actively into front loaded horn. It is the real deal Marc.

I am talking chest vibration oomph lol

 

[Al M.]

Hi Peter,

Understood. I think I get your definition as I had that with my Focal Utopias driven by Analog Domain. The BD Design Swing however makes my Focals oomph seem wimpy lol. The body and solidity of Mr Honegger’s cello last night was breathtaking on the BD.

Cheers

As a musician you know that "oomph" of a cello depends on instrument, acoustics, distance of the listener etc. "Oomph" can also be too much. A while ago I decided to reduce the cello oomph on a recording by subwoofer adjustment, given a recent close-up live experience. The adjustment made the cello sound more realistic, and in my view enjoyably close to the real thing.

 

[Audiophile Bill]

As a musician you know that "oomph" of a cello depends on instrument, acoustics, distance of the listener etc. "Oomph" can also be too much. A while ago I decided to reduce the cello oomph on a recording by subwoofer adjustment, given a recent close-up live experience. The adjustment made the cello sound more realistic, and in my view enjoyably close to the real thing.

Yes sure it can be too much. I have the same luxury now as the BD bass has volume control oomph adjustment.

But I get your point. That said it is quite hard to have too much oomph in a tutti using most systems unless said oomph is just poor quality bass bluster.

 

[DaveyF]

Increased presence is perhaps what is being discussed by 'oomph'. Better instruments have a way of making the listeners and the player, more aware of their 'presence'. I am not aware of any instrument that a pro musician would consider utilizing that cannot react to their immediate playing input...and portray the sound exactly as they require.
OTOH, if by 'oomph' we are describing dynamic ability and the ability to react to increases in the power band that many instruments portray ( again one could possibly replace power band with 'presence' in some cases) in an instantaneous manner, then the fastest drivers usually win this race. ( fast being related to how quickly the driver can start and stop...which is why many very thin panel speakers and ultra thin dynamic drivers seem to have a head up here).
However, if one is relating to bass punch and slam as---'oomph' then this needs some clarification as to the term, IMO.

 

[Audiophile Bill]

Increased presence is perhaps what is being discussed by 'oomph'. Better instruments have a way of making the listeners and the player, more aware of their 'presence'. I am not aware of any instrument that a pro musician would consider utilizing that cannot react to their immediate playing input...and portray the sound exactly as they require.
OTOH, if by 'oomph' we are describing dynamic ability and the ability to react to increases in the power band that many instruments portray ( again one could possibly replace power band with 'presence' in some cases) in an instantaneous manner, the n the fastest drivers usually win this race. ( fast being related to how quickly the driver can start and stop...which is why many very thin panel speakers and ultra thin dynamic drivers seem to have a head up here).
However, if one is relating to bass punch and slam as---'oomph' then this needs some clarification as to the term, IMO.

Hi Davey,

I agree that we should probably collectively drop the term oomph as frankly it isn’t helpful as it seems to mean different things to different people vs other adjectives where we commonly all tend to concur on the meaning.

 

[christoph]

Yes sure it can be too much. I have the same luxury now as the BD bass has volume control oomph adjustment.

But I get your point. That said it is quite hard to have too much oomph in a tutti using most systems unless said oomph is just poor quality bass bluster.

Maybe we should really start a new thread for the BD Swings.
Can you provide there a link to your model?

 

[Audiophile Bill]

Maybe we should really start a new thread for the BD Swings.
Can you provide there a link to your model?

Okay Chris - sure thing

 

[christoph]

Okay Chris - sure thing

I think you should start that thread.
After all, they are your speakers

 

[Audiophile Bill]

I think you should start that thread.
After all, they are your speakers

I just did

 

[KeithR]

A quick update on the Rockport- the dealer wrote back and after a conversation with the Vitus designer Hans, started experimenting with Class A/B on the big boy Vitus amp. He agrees now the Altair 2s were anemic by comparison before. Looking forward to my revisit in two weeks.

 

[sujay]

The Rockports are deceptively difficult to drive in my view. The more the power, the better they blossom.

 

[Al M.]

The Rockports are deceptively difficult to drive in my view. The more the power, the better they blossom.

It does not surprise me to read this. I once heard Rockport Altairs on large Simaudio Moon monoblocks that nominally should be powerful enough to drive them. The sound was strained, hard to listen to.

 

[bonzo75]

Vitus in class AB does not sound anywhere as good as it does in class A, so if he Rockports require more power he should do it with another amp rather than using. Vitus in AB

 

[Ron Resnick]

Ron, that would assume that the speaker I recommended cannot deliver dynamics and oomph like cones. If you had heard the speaker in question, the Alsyvox- and heard that it fell down in this area, a reasonable response...otherwise, I don't think so. While I have not heard these speakers, i am going to reserve my judgement until i do so. The fact that a well respected member here went to them after owning horns and dynamics and believes they do dynamics and bass oomph better than anything he had owned before, tells me something!

Davey, I agree with most of your points here. I was not suggesting that I necessarily agree with Keith’s view but, to date, no planar has worked for him with regard to this sonic attribute.

I commented that I understand Keith’s view here, not necessarily that I agree with it.

You are correct that I am assuming things (based on Apogees and other planars) but I certainly understand the view of KeithR and MikeL, for two, that it takes cones to move enough air to be convincing — for them — in the area of dynamics and oomph.

 

[Ron Resnick]

“Oomph” to me relates to bass punch and slam, exactly as Davey suggests.