KeithR's "Dream Speaker" Search

[bonzo75]

Hi Peter,
In terms of tone, do you think the Magico / Pass combination is faithfully reproducing what you heard in the live string quartet?

If you assume the live quartet at 100, and that other speakers are less than 100, then if you have heard only one speaker, you might place it at 90. The more speakers you hear, the more likely this 90 will go down and others will fall in between that score and 100. So, to ask how a speaker compares to live in absence of other references is not valid. A lot of guys who sit next to me at concert halls own Bose and B&O are happy, they don't have other references.

In cone oomph, the new B&W D3 series is pretty good

 

[morricab]

It’s not the cones themselves.

Agreed. The AER driver in the backloaded Pnoe is in fact a paper cone. It is moving mass and magnetic field strength giving high sensitivity that makes the difference. Horn loading is another avenue to both enhance sensitivity and beam directivity.

My most sensitive speaker to little dynamic inflections is in fact a single driver in a box (Decware HDTs). At 96db/watt and no crossover it captures lots of these micro shifts even at quite low volume...something most systems miss entirely unless played quite loud.

 

[morricab]

Yes there are examples of cones being capable. The Devore Orangutang appears to be one of those.

All non-horn loaded single driver speakers also qualify...putting it in a horn changes things somewhat...

 

[bonzo75]

Usually open baffles cannot do the bass oomph as well as cones. How apogee managed it I have no idea. In horns, as one designer explained to me, he could have put a ten inch driver in closed cabinet to get bass, but (he and I looked at each other and shook heads as we knew what that would mean), so he said the other way to get that bass was by putting two 18 inch horn drivers front loaded. Still my favorite bass along with another custom horn.

 

[bonzo75]

Regarding the snooty snog comment, I made it because I see this from the Boston crowd often (we went to a live show and our systems produce that superbly). Personally I don't like going to a live show to check if they play as well as our gear. If you go out you should to challenge your own views and learn. It is ok to change. Change is progress.

Incidentally Bill was the Peter of UK, his Focal (which could do more oomph than Magicos) were it. That was bass, oomph, and dynamics to him. We fought often when I tried to get him to hear horns. He sometimes left whatsapp groups in a huff, and once put the phone down when I was explaining what a horn would do better. He then messaged me after a few hours to say we shouldn't chat about hifi anymore, only about weight training.

Then, he accidentally heard the general's system and sold off his stuff and went in that direction overnight

So, Peter, Al, can still challenge what they think they know, but not everyone can do it accidentally, some need to do it intentionally. Then maybe Peter might become the Bill of Boston.

 

[Bodhi]

Regarding the snooty snog comment, I made it because I see this from the Boston crowd often (we went to a live show and our systems produce that superbly).

 

[Audiophile Bill]

Regarding the snooty snog comment, I made it because I see this from the Boston crowd often (we went to a live show and our systems produce that superbly). Personally I don't like going to a live show to check if they play as well as our gear. If you go out you should to challenge your own views and learn. It is ok to change. Change is progress.

Incidentally Bill was the Peter of UK, his Focal (which could do more oomph than Magicos) were it. That was bass, oomph, and dynamics to him. We fought often when I tried to get him to hear horns. He sometimes left whatsapp groups in a huff, and once put the phone down when I was explaining what a horn would do better. He then messaged me after a few hours to say we shouldn't chat about hifi anymore, only about weight training.

Then, he accidentally heard the general's system and sold off his stuff and went in that direction overnight

So, Peter, Al, can still challenge what they think they know, but not everyone can do it accidentally, some need to do it intentionally. Then maybe Peter might become the Bill of Boston.

Hi Ked,

I think you omit some crucial information that might also explain the opinion of others.

All the previous horns I had heard did not appeal to me before the Pnoe experience. It wasn’t their dynamic ability because that was always there. It was the cupped colouration of literally any music I heard. This was my perspective on the AG Duos, Trios, Animas, Acapella (various), early Uni, large Cessaros etc.

So it is possible for people to easily conclude this. Now if I had not visited General and instead visited another Anima system, I sincerely doubt my perspective would have changed. Devil in the detail with this. of course the WE systems at Munich did show me that honk was also avoidable.

 

[bonzo75]

I agree. Horns are more different from each other than from cones. As some guys who always refer to hybrids from AG, Acapella, etc keep pointing out issues, I too personally would choose a standard cone (B&W, verity, or with more money YG, Zellaton) over these.

 

[Al M.]

So, Peter, Al, can still challenge what they think they know, but not everyone can do it accidentally, some need to do it intentionally. Then maybe Peter might become the Bill of Boston.

Where did I challenge anything, Ked? Have I said anything about your beloved horn topology, for example?

 

[bonzo75]

Where did I challenge anything, Ked? Have I said anything about your beloved horn topology, for example?

No I am saying you should challenge what you know

 

[Al M.]

No I am saying you should challenge what you know

Or think you know. I agree. You should do the same, more than you already do.

 

[bonzo75]

Or think you know. I agree. You should do the same, more than you already do.

I go on the hypothesis that I am wrong, so you don't see me going to confirm what I already like, but if you want to argue and not change that's fine. Me being right or wrong won't make a difference to you, you being wrong would

 

[Al M.]

I go on the hypothesis that I am wrong, so you don't see me going to confirm what I already like, but if you want to argue and not change that's fine. Me being right or wrong won't make a difference to you, you being wrong would

Haha, you don't know me, Ked. You think I don't take pride to change my mind when challenged with new facts? You must not have paid attention.

As for you going on the hypothesis of being wrong, this is great, but I haven't seen much evidence of this in your posts. But perhaps I am wrong there too. You do constantly confirm what you already like.

 

[bonzo75]

Haha, you don't know me, Ked. You think I don't take pride to change my mind when challenged with new facts? You must not have paid attention.

As for you going on the hypothesis of being wrong, this is great, but I haven't seen much evidence of this in your posts. But perhaps I am wrong there too. You do constantly confirm what you already like.

How, from Martin Logans, to saying apogees are bad and analysis audio is good, to apogees are great to horns are great, to digital is the way, analog is not required, to analog is great, to recordings. Can go on.

 

[Al M.]

How, from Martin Logans, to saying apogees are bad and analysis audio is good, to apogees are great to horns are great, to digital is the way, analog is not required, to analog is great, to recordings. Can go on.

O.k., that sounds like changing your mind indeed. Good stuff! Even though I may not agree with all specifics.

 

[PeterA]

Hi Peter,

I am not sure what you mean by horns falling short on “oomph” - it is one of their key upsides unless your definition doesn’t coincide with my one.

In terms of the microdynamic fluctuations - the best system I ever heard by far do that is the General’s Pnoes. The tiniest fluctuations in individual notes are unveiled beautifully. Really it is a thing to behold. I do think highly sensitive systems are better able to capture this. Inefficient cones simply by the laws of physics can’t achieve this to the same degree. I don’t hear this quality in Wilsons and Magicos when driven with their usual “show” amplification - granted this might be better in home systems.
In terms of tone, do you think the Magico / Pass combination is faithfully reproducing what you heard in the live string quartet?

Bill, By "oomph", I mean the weight, impact, articulation, and scale of real instruments in the lower frequencies like the cello and piano I heard the other night up close and in a small room. Perhaps we mean different things. I consider microdynamic fluctuations to be a different attribute and one that the General's Pnoes may do very differently than good large cone dynamic speakers. I would love to hear his system some day to learn something new. I was responding to what I think Ron means by the term as he referenced Keith's preference for the speaker typology he has described in this thread.

I mentioned Madfloyd's Magico M Pro and CAT amplifier combination, plus Rockitman's Wilson X2? and Pass XS150 amplifier combination as two specific examples of systems that can reproduce that quality of "oomph" convincingly. I mentioned those examples because I have heard them and those two systems are described on this forum. My lesser Magico Q3 and Pass XA.5 combination can not do what those larger more accomplished combinations can do. I was also not specifically talking about tone.

I'd rather not discuss my thoughts about the tone of real instruments relative to audio systems lest Bonzo jump on me yet again for not having sufficient experience or, god forbid, comparing the sound of live instruments to reproduced music on audio systems. That is becoming tiresome. I respect and admire Kedar's approach to the hobby and enjoy reading about his travels and thoughts on audio. I do not criticize his views, yet, Kedar seems to take pleasure in telling me and others what I don't know and how I should change my approach. I fully realize that I have much to learn about this hobby.

I made a comment in support of Ron's post describing Keith's preference with a specific example of live music. That was my only intension. I do not wish to take this thread further off the topic of Keith's speaker search.

 

[bonzo75]

No, you are misquoting me. I take pleasure in telling you to listen to something different than to go to a concert to hear the same brand you have had for years do it right. You don't have to agree with me after listening to something different. Try to find out why we don't like Magicos, or Wilson's, and then if you disagree with us, fine.

 

[GSOphile]

Regarding the snooty snog comment, I made it because I see this from the Boston crowd often (we went to a live show and our systems produce that superbly). Personally I don't like going to a live show to check if they play as well as our gear. If you go out you should to challenge your own views and learn. It is ok to change. Change is progress.

Incidentally Bill was the Peter of UK, his Focal (which could do more oomph than Magicos) were it. That was bass, oomph, and dynamics to him. We fought often when I tried to get him to hear horns. He sometimes left whatsapp groups in a huff, and once put the phone down when I was explaining what a horn would do better. He then messaged me after a few hours to say we shouldn't chat about hifi anymore, only about weight training.

Then, he accidentally heard the general's system and sold off his stuff and went in that direction overnight

So, Peter, Al, can still challenge what they think they know, but not everyone can do it accidentally, some need to do it intentionally. Then maybe Peter might become the Bill of Boston.

Is this a preview of the Super Bowl - Boston vs. LA??

 

[DaveC]

All non-horn loaded single driver speakers also qualify...putting it in a horn changes things somewhat...

To a degree, but it's still basically a single driver and just like a single driver on a flat baffle, your "system" is basically all about that one driver. A single driver has a mechanical crossover built into the cone design and thus takes the place of multiple drivers and the associated crossover network.

Also, with single driver or conventional driver horns the designer can choose how much horniness there is going to be... The Pnoe really isn't much of a horn wrt to the front portion, it probably doesn't change the frequency response much if at all and only has a moderate effect on directivity. The BD Designs speakers are more of a horn and have a larger effect on fr and efficiency, same with Odeon and AG. My speakers are somewhere in between, the horn has a significant effect but is also much more open and not nearly as deep, I choose this compromise because it makes for clearer highs and less overall audible effects from the horn... it's somewhere in between a horn a modern waveguide.

There are tradeoffs with anything and the fact is a horn isn't quite as clean as other types of speakers, a good cone n dome or panel will not be as colored and this is totally apparent on female vocals, imo there is no horn speaker that can do vocals as well as these other kinds of speakers. You pay a price for the other things a horn adds to the equation, but this is true of any design decision regarding speakers... they are a whole pile of compromise and the only right answer is to choose the compromises that fit your personal preferences and the space you have to put your system in.

 

[DaveyF]

Davey, do you know how much the smallest AlsyVox model costs?

I do, please PM if you are interested.