KeithR's "Dream Speaker" Search

[KeithR]

Another speaker to consider is the Avantgarde Zero half active . These are better than the Unos, IMO, and cheaper. Bass is active and dsp controllable.

Funny you mention the Zero - I would likely own a pair instead of the Devores if the TA version had come out originally as I prefer to use my own amplification.

I have a good friend with the Zero Pros who has given up $$$$ in gear and is pretty happy (for a gear swapper!).

 

[DaveyF]

Keith, in your OP you mentioned that panels don't work for you, I am curious as to why not?
The new Alsyvox all ribbon panel is getting a lot of great press. I think for a medium size room, the bottom of the line...Tintoretto, might be something you may want to consider. If you like a large soundstage, these would very likely supply that. Along with bringing sufficient bass and dynamics. I have not heard them, but as Gwalt states in my Alsyvox thread, he is very much an admirer now, after going through several horn and dynamic designs.

 

[Ron Resnick]

I believe Keith likes the dynamics and oomph from cones. I understand this view.

 

[morricab]

Funny you mention the Zero - I would likely own a pair instead of the Devores if the TA version had come out originally as I prefer to use my own amplification.

I have a good friend with the Zero Pros who has given up $$$$ in gear and is pretty happy (for a gear swapper!).

Yeah, that put me off as well. I am a SET guy and built-in SS amplification is not my ideal. I heard the full active ones and found them to be very good except for tone, which I blame largely on the electronics. I hope to hear one day the TA version with good SET and see where they stand overall. The problem I saw is that the TA version still goes up to 400Hz with a Class D amp...this is well into the midrange and I find it hard to see how this won't influence the tonal character.

 

[bonzo75]

Yeah, that put me off as well. I am a SET guy and built-in SS amplification is not my ideal. I heard the full active ones and found them to be very good except for tone, which I blame largely on the electronics. I hope to hear one day the TA version with good SET and see where they stand overall. The problem I saw is that the TA version still goes up to 400Hz with a Class D amp...this is well into the midrange and I find it hard to see how this won't influence the tonal character.

Why recommend this then if you are not sure if it will influence tone? Keith is not looking at a heavy compromise, he already has a speaker he likes. He is checking if he can get a huge uplift worth the cost.

 

[morricab]

Why recommend this then if you are not sure if it will influence tone? Keith is not looking at a heavy compromise, he already has a speaker he likes. He is checking if he can get a huge uplift worth the cost.

I only recommend he have a listen ...nothing more

 

[bonzo75]

Sorry for the break in the action, but January has been tight with other obligations including an amp that had to go into service. I will revisit both the Rockport and YG in the next month and pick a dynamic driver winner. On the former, the dealer assures me the Vitus is the right amp and is going to re-position the speakers for better dynamics and shove. On the latter, I will hear the Hailey 2 which is expected to be delivered in February (I also might ask @asiufy to hook up the Sonja 2 b2b).

In addition, I have started to think about skipping the "middle" range of each line and waiting for a demo piece of the previous top line speaker, but that's just chatter at this moment as I don't have a new room yet. For instance, @Ron Resnick believes an Altair, Sonja, or Alpha is a much better idea, even if a generation old, than a Avior, Hailey, or Wagner. There may be some credence to this theory that I will get to explore. Although at least in Rockport-land, I know several people who think the lowly Atria is the most coherent and perhaps best sounding speaker in the line - and as mentioned in my initial review- the dealer's favorite for normal rooms.

I also confirmed the US Cessaro importer will have the Wagner 2 and Listz for demo during my April trip to NYC. The Wagner 2 uses a countertop- style cabinet vs the prior birch ply. That said, @bonzo75 recent comments on the Cessaro have soured my outlook a bit - as soundstage is one of my top criteria for a speaker and apparently this is not the Wagner's strength.

So by the end of spring, I should have a path formulated - even if its staying put with my Gibbon Xs which I can say is not an improbability.

This older generation thing is not necessarily correct. Hailey had much better mids than older and bigger Anat, enough to switch. The verity leonore series was better than its bigger predecessors

 

[PeterA]

I believe Keith likes the dynamics and oomph from cones. I understand this view.

Madfloyd, Al M., and I heard a piano trio last night in a living room setting. We were sitting less than ten feet from the cello. I understand very well what Keith likes about the dynamics and oomph from cones. Madfloyd's Magico M Pro gets the sound of that violin, cello, and piano better than any speaker I've heard. (EDIT: Rockitman's large Wilsons can do this this too). For me it is all about that energy from the instruments in the room, up very close, and presented in a coherent, seamless, effortless and natural way. I have only heard that from a well set up large cone system.

You can see Al's foot in the bottom left corner of the photo:

 

[bonzo75]

When you say better than other speakers you have heard, you mean better than other Magicos and Al's speaker?

 

[PeterA]

When you say better than other speakers you have heard, you mean better than other Magicos and Al's speaker?

No Kedar, I mean exactly what I wrote. I should add that Rockitman's large Wilsons also capture this "dynamics and oomph" that Ron wrote Keith is after from cone speakers. I have heard other speaker typologies do extremely well with other sonic attributes.

Perhaps you do not appreciate that I have heard many speaker systems besides Magicos and Al's Ref 3a, including horns and panels at dealerships, shows, and at people's homes. I certainly don't have the experience that you have gained through your many travels, and I respect that, which is why I qualified my statement to those speakers that I have personally heard. This is only my experience, and I share it to indicate that I can relate to Ron's comment describing what type of sound Keith is after. I also know full well that Keith does not like Magico speakers.

I suspect you know what I am talking because you have heard MikeL's system and have reported on your very positive impressions of his large cone based system. I have also read many reports about the sound of that system which are consistent with the notion that large cone systems can deliver "dynamics and oomph". This is not to say that other speaker typologies can not do it too, it is just that I have not heard it done by the horns and panels that I have heard to the same convincing degree.

I would be quite interested in reading Keith's thoughts on this subject.

Ron might refer to your post as a "snickity snooty" comment, or some such. I would agree.

 

[Ron Resnick]

. . . Ron might refer to your post as a "snickity snooty" comment, or some such. I would agree.

Very close, Peter!

That would be “snooty-snog.”

 

[jdza]

 

[Al M.]

When you say better than other speakers you have heard, you mean better than other Magicos and Al's speaker?

For one, a speaker must be able to play at the peaks that I measured with an SPL meter sitting so close at the concert, 100 dBa (Beethoven piano trio) or even 105 dBa (piano trio by Johannes Maria Staud), corresponding to about 105 and 110 dB, respectively.

I have not heard the Magico M Pro play on this kind of music at such loud levels, but I imagine it could. My speaker/sub combo cannot, even though it portrays musical energy and dynamics quite well at somewhat lower levels, which are still rather loud.

 

[DaveyF]

I believe Keith likes the dynamics and oomph from cones. I understand this view.

Ron, that would assume that the speaker I recommended cannot deliver dynamics and oomph like cones. If you had heard the speaker in question, the Alsyvox- and heard that it fell down in this area, a reasonable response...otherwise, I don't think so. While I have not heard these speakers, i am going to reserve my judgement until i do so. The fact that a well respected member here went to them after owning horns and dynamics and believes they do dynamics and bass oomph better than anything he had owned before, tells me something!

 

[Audiophile Bill]

For one, a speaker must be able to play at the peaks that I measured with an SPL meter sitting so close at the concert, 100 dBa (Beethoven piano trio) or even 105 dBa (piano trio by Johannes Maria Staud), corresponding to about 105 and 110 dB, respectively.

I have not heard the Magico M Pro play on this kind of music at such loud levels, but I imagine it could. My speaker/sub combo cannot, even though it portrays musical energy and dynamics quite well at somewhat lower levels, which are still rather loud.

Did you happen to measure the average also, Al. Are these A Weighted?

I think the average is really important to know also because some very dynamic systems can by laws of physics generate such peaks with proportionally lower average. Less dynamic systems can hit the peaks but the average needs to be much higher in proportion if that makes sense.

 

[Al M.]

Did you happen to measure the average also, Al. Are these A Weighted?

I think the average is really important to know also because some very dynamic systems can by laws of physics generate such peaks with proportionally lower average. Less dynamic systems can hit the peaks but the average needs to be much higher in proportion if that makes sense.

A weighted yes, measuring in dBa.

The meter does not have an average function, but I looked at it from time to time and the music seemed to hover at least around 90 dBa, with frequent excursions towards 95 dBa. It rarely played below 80 dBa.

 

[morricab]

A weighted yes, measuring in dBa.

The meter does not have an average function, but I looked at it from time to time and the music seemed to hover at least around 90 dBa, with frequent excursions towards 95 dBa. It rarely played below 80 dBa.

Weighted and averaged will not tell you the real instantaneous peak properly. The fact is that lower sensitivity speakers will compress these peaks and a horn is far less likely to do so...at least at home listening levels. Thermal compression sets in quite early and whil average levels are reached instantaneous peaks are often not...unless you listen much lower than realistic but then you lose a realistic dynamic range as the low volume end drops out. Also then the peaks don’t seem as dramatic because they are far below live levels.

 

[morricab]

No Kedar, I mean exactly what I wrote. I should add that Rockitman's large Wilsons also capture this "dynamics and oomph" that Ron wrote Keith is after from cone speakers. I have heard other speaker typologies do extremely well with other sonic attributes.

Perhaps you do not appreciate that I have heard many speaker systems besides Magicos and Al's Ref 3a, including horns and panels at dealerships, shows, and at people's homes. I certainly don't have the experience that you have gained through your many travels, and I respect that, which is why I qualified my statement to those speakers that I have personally heard. This is only my experience, and I share it to indicate that I can relate to Ron's comment describing what type of sound Keith is after. I also know full well that Keith does not like Magico speakers.

I suspect you know what I am talking because you have heard MikeL's system and have reported on your very positive impressions of his large cone based system. I have also read many reports about the sound of that system which are consistent with the notion that large cone systems can deliver "dynamics and oomph". This is not to say that other speaker typologies can not do it too, it is just that I have not heard it done by the horns and panels that I have heard to the same convincing degree.

I would be quite interested in reading Keith's thoughts on this subject.

Ron might refer to your post as a "snickity snooty" comment, or some such. I would agree.

Ummph ok, this comes from having solid and powerful bass...something cones in a box can be very good at. Dynamics is something else and I haven’t heard a cone/dome speaker yet that does this as realistically as a good horn. The ease and lack of distortion on music swings is very evident in its absence. You can play much closer to realistic levels without fatigue and it even doesn’t sound as loud because there is less distortion telling your ears to turn it down.

 

[Audiophile Bill]

Ummph ok, this comes from having solid and powerful bass...something cones in a box can be very good at. Dynamics is something else and I haven’t heard a cone/dome speaker yet that does this as realistically as a good horn. The ease and lack of distortion on music swings is very evident in its absence. You can play much closer to realistic levels without fatigue and it even doesn’t sound as loud because there is less distortion telling your ears to turn it down.

This thing about playing at realistic levels with no fatigue is very true indeed with my new horns (arrived 25 hrs ago lol). I only noticed last night when I took a meter out and recorded 98.7dB peak when I was in night listening mode ahahaha. Excuse the carnage in my room - just dumped them in for now.

 

[bonzo75]

Ummph ok, this comes from having solid and powerful bass...something cones in a box can be very good at. Dynamics is something else and I haven’t heard a cone/dome speaker yet that does this as realistically as a good horn. The ease and lack of distortion on music swings is very evident in its absence. You can play much closer to realistic levels without fatigue and it even doesn’t sound as loud because there is less distortion telling your ears to turn it down.

Exactly. And more powerful solid bass and oomph will come from horns instead of that cabinet distortion if there are two 18 inch woofers (or 15) in each speaker, front loaded, open