KeithR's "Dream Speaker" Search
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Jeff heard the Druid 6 at my house, not Keith's, a few years ago when they were introduced, and a few times since. I own both Zu Druid 6 and Definition 4 currently on two separate systems, and I have heard Keith's Fyne's on day of unpacking (Ron & I installed them), at interim points of adjustment during break-in, and when five of us from this forum listened after sufficient break-in, on a variety of amplifiers, as previously described in this thread.
Re: Druid 6 v. Fyn F1-12:
1/ Two very different speakers, starting with Druid now priced at $11,500/pr. and Fyne F1-12 priced at nearly $36,000/pr. in the US. They also have some opposite characteristics. The Fyne is a 2-way that allocates frequencies above 750Hz to a 75mm tweeter. The Zu is a crossoverless speaker that assigns frequencies from lower limit to 12.5kHz to a broadband 10" driver, with a supplemental Radian compression supertweeter on a high pass filter above there. Not that close conceptually, but closer in relative simplicity than to the majority of mainstream, multi-drivers, crossover-intensive loudspeakers.
2/ The Fyne is certainly closer to the Druid than to the YG owing to it being a 2-way speaker with a mild crossover, and 96db/w/m efficiency. The YG is a severely "tight-sphinctered" speaker, which requires high power backed by disproportionately large power supplies to achieve any notion of dynamic life and elasticity, and even that's a stretch. Druid achieves both effortlessly on 8+ watts. I lashed a pair of custom 20w triode-wired Williamson tube amps that proved the Fyne can do same on 18+w. This alone is a tremendous advantage in building a system if the speaker(s) in question are musically credible.
3/ Even though both speakers are "vented" via the bottom of their respective structures, the way they work is not the same. The Fyne is ported. It's a sophisticated port design with a base-located bass diffuser. More on that in a moment. The Zu Druid is built on a Griewe scheme, applying to loudspeakers a motorcycle exhaust principle Ron Griewe invented to boost power from multi-cycle combustion engines. As implemented by Zu, the Griewe scheme is not a port and doesn't behave like one. It acts as an acoustic impedance matching device between the main driver and the room. It's unique in loudspeakers, to the point where its implementation will vary depending on the cabinet design. That is to say that the internal Griewe implementation in a Zu Omen is different than in a Soul, which is different from a Druid. So this brings up a key differences: The Druid has a very immediate, direct sound that is intrinsically faster than the Fyne. And the sound comes from one place. The Fyne has a vague but noticeable characteristic wherein you hear bass propagated from the tall-location 12" driver, *and* from the floor-level port. Additionally, the downfire port sort of waterfalls bass energy out of the backwave of the driver and "pours" it onto the floor with enough dispersion energy that very small shifts in placement relative to nearby corners or walls are sonically significant. I mean 1" to 1-1/2" shifts. The Druid is far less placement sensitive and you never hear the sense of bass coming from two places, like with the Fyne.
On the other hand, to a lot of people the Fyne character will seem euphonic.
The Druid is rolling off below 30Hz, maybe 29Hz. The Fyne is spec'd -6db @ 26Hz. It sounds like it does a little better.
4/ Being a two-way, the Fyne designers had to decide where to put the crossover point. The good thing is that they didn't plant it squarely in the 2000Hz-4000Hz range like most ham-handed speaker designers would. They put it at 750Hz. So it's not causing all the usual damage to vocals and instruments you usually find in crossover-based speakers, but the tweeter has a *lot* of work to do. It's a 75mm titanium dome compression driver. It's a little hot; it loses resonance on lower vocals -- it bleaches out the "whole note" of the human pipe. The ported 12" driver is prone to some euphonic bloat -- not a lot, not a sinful amount, but just enough that between the somewhat hot (but clean!) tweeter and the bass euphonia, the lower midrange sound relatively recessed a bit. Kind of like the midrange sag of a Fender guitar amp. The Druid does none of this, but the Druid will not spatially scale to the same degree as the far more expensive and larger Fyne. The Radian 850 compression supertweeter in the Druid is silkier and more graceful than the Fyne tweeter, but the Fyne tweet spotlights more.
Really, Fyne v. Zu is a Zu Definition / Fyne F1-12 face-off. I will take my 12 year old Zu Def 4 over Fyne F1-12, for neutrality, bass extension and image scale. The Fyne probably has the edge on the older Zu in terms of detail retrieval and certain kinds of nuance, and the Fyne tweeter pushes higher in terms of harmonic support. The Druid 6 also has these advantages over the older Zu Def4. On the other hand the Zu Def4 is a superbly relaxing speaker to listen to, with a combination of tone + scale that's hard to beat. But there's a completely new & updated Zu Definition 6 coming that will be worth an extended evaluation of Definition vs. Fyne. Between Druid 6 and Fyne F1-12, Druid is the more intimate speaker and it can integrate even in a near-field listening situation. Fyne will scale better than Druid for large scale symphonic music, big-band jazz, stadium rock, etc. The Druid won't go quite as deep nor quite as high as Fyne, but it will maintain firm bass discipline under a wider spectrum of music circumstance.
4/ If I were still back in the days of not having found great crossoverless speakers, I'd see the Fyne as a good place to hang. It's a very listenable speaker; musically convincing and dynamically elastic without having to strap a locomotive amp to it. What bothers me about it is entirely revealed by now 16 years listening to no crossovers, listening to phase linearity and driver coherence, and highly elastic dynamics. I'm never going to go back to a Fyne-type speaker but whereas I could not listen to YG Haileys enjoyably, more like just endure them, the Fyne F1-12 is a big friendly St. Bernard of a speaker. It'll lick your face and give you warm feelings on a cold night, and will sound like music, driven by a vastly wider spectrum of amps than possible with any YG.
5/ If you're not ready for crossoverless, even more efficient speakers, the Fyne is musically credible (I say that thinking most speakers are not) and the workmanship is fantastic. Bottom line: Nothing about Fyne makes me want to leave Zu, but in the realm of conventional crossover speakers I like it well enough, and anyone who knows me well in audio terms knows I say that about very few others.
Phil
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Very impressive description, Phil, and enjoyable to read. You would never find such an informative report in an audio magazine, frankly. As the owner of crossover-less Reference 3A speakers, there certainly are things that I can relate to.
Hey, it's good to have an informative take on Zu, rather than that overly fanboy half cogent old hack on here who normally gushes over them...who IS that guy?
Happy to contribute. I came within seconds of buying Reference 3A speakers back in 2004 when I bought my first Zu speakers. Certainly Ref 3A was on the leading edge of offering a path out of crossover hell then, and are still in the music (vs. linearity-over-all-else) evaluation camp today.
Phil
Uhmmm yes… sounds very balanced to me
I prefer the other guy.
Yes, crossover-less has something to it. I do have JL Audio subwoofers with my Reference 3A Reflector monitors -- frankly, I would want subs to support any speakers, except perhaps those that already come with their own bass towers in the design package (rarely any "full range" speaker is actually that, regardless of what "specifications" are saying). But the subs aren't crossed over either, they simply run in parallel, from the preamp, and roll off upwards on their own.
There is the option of using an external JL Audio CR-1 crossover, but to me that would defeat the purpose of the main speakers being what they are, and is not audibly necessary in my setup for bass quality.
Al, your Ref 3As have a filter on the tweeter, so not pure crossover free. The subs also have a crossover (probably like a 3rd order filter) at 80 or 100 hz with all the phase shift that implies. It doesn’t matter if you filter the bass from your main speakers there is still a filter on the subs. Your system then actually has two filters, one at the high frequencies and one in the low frequencies...
Phil, I commend you for this wonderful post. It is one of the best comparative analysis between two speakers that I’ve ever read. Why can’t professional reviews be anything like this?
@DarrellC - I've written on Zu before and owned the Definition IV for 6 years. I had this to say above on the Druid V. I even considered buying a pair last fall as a second set to my YG. In the end, I decided that wasn't the right path.
I think Zu is a sub-$10k company now and Phil has been waiting on the replacement definition *for 6 years.* I love Sean, but he's gone in a different direction. His new Soul speaker is like 36" tall for small rooms. The pandemic hit the company hard and hope they pull through - they really are great guys.
As far as Fyne vs. Zu, I feel the Fynes are more refined and without the two criticisms I pointed out before (the second related to the whizzer cone which apparently Cube gets rid of finally). I do probably prefer the sealed active bass of a YG Sonja or Zu Definition a hair over the Fyne bass - but in general think the F1-12 bass is outstanding for a ported design. But if crossover-less sound is your highest criteria, of course a Fyne (or Devore or YG) isn't your path.
As I've tried to convey over the years, there is no perfect speaker - they all have flaws. I've spent a day with the $350k Chronosonic XVX and $200k YG Sonja XV and they have them too. It's all about finding what priorities you have.
All: I know there is a bit of a tit for tat going on between Fyne and YG and strong opinions have surfaced over the past week.
Let me say that I disagree with most of it. In fact, there are things the Haileys do better than my F1-12s. For instance, playing the D2D Bruckner recording the other night I did notice that the sound was probably better out of the Haileys as they do the "you are there" thing more. Not as dynamic, but you definitely felt more in the hall. Ultimate transparency is probably in the YG's court and they probably are smoother in the treble.
I'd also point out that my good friend/dealer @asiufy prefers the YG to the Fyne. So it's not a "landslide" of opinion. I think Chuck would as well, although disagree with him that an aluminum driver (which has been used for decades) is superior to treated paper. In fact, I find aluminum just as ordinary. To me YG is all about the hybrid tweeter and crossover which is miles ahead of Wilson, Rockport, and Magico.
What I do enjoy about the Fynes is how lively and listenable they are *on all recordings.* They are definitely more in the "they are here" camp which some may or may not enjoy. You feel like instruments and singers are more in the room. One very noticeable, and measured difference in my room, is that YG lacked upper bass weight - whereas the Fyne has a bit of excess in that region. This makes the Fyne behave better and sound more powerful. I'm not sure why that's the case but do wonder if the YG's 65hz crossover is related and I believe JA made a similar comment years ago.
One of the conclusions I came to with YG was that it was going to cost me significant $ to take the next step and that I wasn't happy where I was - whether that was Sonjas, amps, subs, or whatnot (and I believe Sonjas was that step). I was staring at a 6-figure bill and audio just isn't that important to me. So I rolled with the Fynes, a reference source (MSB Ref dac- which is amazing), and will enjoy an amp/preamp combo that costs considerably less as I don't have the significant amplifier needs. I am going to try a Dart 108 and Bakoon next.
I have commented before that my fiance noticed with YG i was playing audiophile recordings, and usually tracks not albums. With the Fynes I'm playing everything. I think that's really important in my journey. Will this be my last stop? We shall see!
Let me say that I disagree with most of it. In fact, there are things the Haileys do better than my F1-12s. For instance, playing the D2D Bruckner recording the other night I did notice that the sound was probably better out of the Haileys as they do the "you are there" thing more. Not as dynamic, but you definitely felt more in the hall. Ultimate transparency is probably in the YG's court and they probably are smoother in the treble.
I'd also point out that my good friend/dealer @asiufy prefers the YG to the Fyne. So it's not a "landslide" of opinion. I think Chuck would as well, although disagree with him that an aluminum driver (which has been used for decades) is superior to treated paper. In fact, I find aluminum just as ordinary. To me YG is all about the hybrid tweeter and crossover which is miles ahead of Wilson, Rockport, and Magico.
What I do enjoy about the Fynes is how lively and listenable they are *on all recordings.* They are definitely more in the "they are here" camp which some may or may not enjoy. You feel like instruments and singers are more in the room. One very noticeable, and measured difference in my room, is that YG lacked upper bass weight - whereas the Fyne has a bit of excess in that region. This makes the Fyne behave better and sound more powerful. I'm not sure why that's the case but do wonder if the YG's 65hz crossover is related and I believe JA made a similar comment years ago.
One of the conclusions I came to with YG was that it was going to cost me significant $ to take the next step and that I wasn't happy where I was - whether that was Sonjas, amps, subs, or whatnot (and I believe Sonjas was that step). I was staring at a 6-figure bill and audio just isn't that important to me. So I rolled with the Fynes, a reference source (MSB Ref dac- which is amazing), and will enjoy an amp/preamp combo that costs considerably less as I don't have the significant amplifier needs. I am going to try a Dart 108 and Bakoon next.
I have commented before that my fiance noticed with YG i was playing audiophile recordings, and usually tracks not albums. With the Fynes I'm playing everything. I think that's really important in my journey. Will this be my last stop? We shall see!
Sorry to hear Zu are so bruised, although I guess it's no suprise. It's a supreme irony that those companies offering ultimate bling at prices to match are probably least affected by the pandemic.
Plus ça meme chose...
Plus ça meme chose...
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Thank you all very much for the exhaustive info / perspectives on these speakers. I do not own either at this point, I did heard the Druid VI at a friends home and was pretty impressed. I was thinking more in terms of the Zu vs F1-10 so that you all very much. Also helpful was the comments about room size as my current listening area is rather small and speaker placement options are limited. Thanks again for your collective info and cordiality. In some places newbies can get crushed.........
Personally this is the only post I liked in the recent stream of posts/reviews over the last few days here. I haven't heard the Fynes and have no doubt that they sound better in Keith's set up than the YG, but it was quite unfair to rant against YG based on listening in Keith's room. As Keith here himself has written, it takes a 6 figure amp and subs set up to correct that. It can be done, but to rant against a speaker a few more auditions in different contexts are required.
ps: The Sim with B&W system mentioned earlier sounds a good combo, the D series launched a few years back was very good and coherent with well integrated midbass and it integrates well with its own subs. Quite superior to Wilson and Magico imo if run with a good SS amp.
Says the guy who obviously has never heard a Magico sound right and constantly rants against Magico. Hilarious.
I have resisted posting in this thread, but given Keith's post, I feel it's the right time to chime in.
From day one, I told Keith he'd be listening to *everything else* in the chain but the speakers, if he went with YG. To show that effect, I brought some cables to his house, that promptly showed how the speakers could sound bloated one minute and thin the next, with a mere power cable change.
I also told him he'd need new amps, and those would not come cheap, as my experience then (almost 3 years ago) was limited with amps in the $10-15k range, which is where Keith wanted to be. Unfortunately that price range has enough sub-par products, and it seems picked a number of those sub-par amps to evaluate, including some which I downright told him not to bother with.
So, obviously I respect Keith's choice of not wanting to investigate proper amp pairings for his YG. Usually the biggest thing in the room gets the blame, so the speaker it is. Moving back to an obviously colored and resonant speaker allows him to choose a much wider range of amps, which not only suits his budget, but is, in itself, part of the fun of the hobby.
Two of the things that have hindered YG's adoption in the marketplace: their high price (in absolute terms), and 2nd, the need for high quality, abundantly powerful amplification. Power is cheap, but high quality isn't. So on top of that $46k speaker, you'll need another $40k-odd for good electronics.
It's clear that Keith wasn't willing to go there, given his other priorities in life, and nobody can blame him for it. But from here on to infer speaker X is superior to Y "just because", it's a huge leap, and frankly, it is pure intellectual dishonesty.
As usual, I welcome everybody to come to the store, and listen to both Hailey 2.2 and Sonja 2.2i and make up their own minds. I've had a pleasant surprise in the Bricasti line of amplifiers that we've picked up recently, as they work amazingly well with YG speakers, and they start at $15k, the top end of Keith's budget.
From day one, I told Keith he'd be listening to *everything else* in the chain but the speakers, if he went with YG. To show that effect, I brought some cables to his house, that promptly showed how the speakers could sound bloated one minute and thin the next, with a mere power cable change.
I also told him he'd need new amps, and those would not come cheap, as my experience then (almost 3 years ago) was limited with amps in the $10-15k range, which is where Keith wanted to be. Unfortunately that price range has enough sub-par products, and it seems picked a number of those sub-par amps to evaluate, including some which I downright told him not to bother with.
So, obviously I respect Keith's choice of not wanting to investigate proper amp pairings for his YG. Usually the biggest thing in the room gets the blame, so the speaker it is. Moving back to an obviously colored and resonant speaker allows him to choose a much wider range of amps, which not only suits his budget, but is, in itself, part of the fun of the hobby.
Two of the things that have hindered YG's adoption in the marketplace: their high price (in absolute terms), and 2nd, the need for high quality, abundantly powerful amplification. Power is cheap, but high quality isn't. So on top of that $46k speaker, you'll need another $40k-odd for good electronics.
It's clear that Keith wasn't willing to go there, given his other priorities in life, and nobody can blame him for it. But from here on to infer speaker X is superior to Y "just because", it's a huge leap, and frankly, it is pure intellectual dishonesty.
As usual, I welcome everybody to come to the store, and listen to both Hailey 2.2 and Sonja 2.2i and make up their own minds. I've had a pleasant surprise in the Bricasti line of amplifiers that we've picked up recently, as they work amazingly well with YG speakers, and they start at $15k, the top end of Keith's budget.
Many amps were tried, some you even brought over, and all failed. Once the “biggest thing in the room” was traded out for another “big thing in the room,” all the listeners were happy. Same electronics, just a different speaker.
Going forward, if someone doesn’t have “$40K worth of electronics,” I’m assuming you won’t be selling them YG’s.
I think professional reviewers just don't see an upside in this kind of comparative commentary. They have to assume commentary like this will alienate certain readers and manufacturers (who are usually the sources of their reviewed gear). The automotive market seems more tolerant of rough-and-tumble critic comparos. In audio, it's mostly a lot of tiptoeing around the sensitivities of industry egos and the geeky nature of audiophile audiences. The automotive press is much more amenable to spotlighting an opinion brawl over products and rival engineering methods. They had fun both respecting Bob Lutz and knocking him around.
This is not a correct assessment. Zu had their best year ever, financially, in CY2020, despite having been supply chain choked in various ways, extending into this year. The supply chain difficulties are easing now, but some remain. Wood supplies are rapidly improving. Metal is still tight but also improving. Eminence, which makes the Zu-specified driver Zu then further builds on in their shop, is still labor-constrained and behind on deliveries to pretty much everyone. So, not back to normal yet, but considerably better than six months or a year ago.
Definition 6 has been a long wait, but the first-order reason for that is rooted in how good the Definition 4 was and remains since its inception. It was a big leap over the prior Definition 2 and short-lived Definition 3. Sean's aim has been to have Definition 6 be an equal or greater leap over Def4 than Def4 was over Def2. To that end, he has considered several design iterations, each one leading to a new insight that argued for another round. It's his company. He doesn't have a partner to say "...stop, let's build this one..." and he is relentlessly creative. He's now on a glide path for an end concept for the speaker. One of the reasons he's been able to go back into redesign for another year cycle is that the global IC chips shortage resulted in no availability of Hypex amps for the sub-bass module. This also forced Zu to stop offering build-to-order Definition 4. Druid 6 hasn't been built for many months because of metal shortages, but the speaker isn't going away. One thing Sean did deliver in the past year is the first pair of Dominance 2, which is easily competitive in the six-figures speakers class. COVID supply chain delayed marketing that speaker.
Zu has always sold many more Druids than Definitions, and it's sold more of the Omen family than Druids, which is a good thing because all the way down to the Omen Dirty Weekend promotions, all this has expanded the constituency for Zu. The reason the new Soul 6 is just 32"/81.5cm tall (without feet or spikes) is because the market wants that option for Druid sound. This is not a speaker just "for small rooms." Many would be surprised by the size of rooms various Souls are deployed in, and the associated gear. One thing commonly reported by owners of Souls in large rooms is how "room-filling" they are. There is a portion of Zu's constituency that loves the sound of a Druid but is cool to the visual profile of a 50" tall speaker. So Zu gets Druid sound to more people with the more compact form factor of Soul. But also note that Soul 6 is both the best-ever Soul *and* the most expensive - $5995/pr. before any options. Druid 6 is now $11,500. Zu will probably always sell mostly under $10,000 in speakers, but that doesn't mean it's just a sub-$10K company now. It will emerge from COVID crimps with Druid 6 (and beyond), Definition 6 (and beyond) and likely some models above Definition in the line. One more thing about Soul 6 and its size: despite being a consumer-direct business globally, with only a few remaining channel relationships, Zu still has an international constituency for whom shipping concerns are significant. Not only is Soul 6 lighter weight, owing to being built with okoume wood, but the smaller size also reduces shipping costs because of the bias assigned to parcel volume in freight pricing. Soul 6 is a smart product move in multiple ways.
Zu has customers backed up wanting to spend money and having to wait to do so. It got some large (for Zu) cash flows via promotions during the COVID clampdowns; got helped by the US Payroll Protection Program in the teeth of the emergency a year ago; is not yet through being held back by supply chain, as well as labor, constraints. Sean also has pro audio product extensions in mind for the business, and there is considerable upside in his cables business, yet to be exploited.
The COVID-coping shifts in Zu's business in 2020 and 2021 have been just that. There's more coming for the deeper pockets.
Phil
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