It doesn’t help, but thanks anyway
) Do you hear any difference between USB and SPDIF?
Lampizator SPDIF question
- Thread starter abeidrov
- Start date
) Do you hear any difference between USB and SPDIF?
Will try 192 later today but diff USB/Spdif is very audiable. Could not say this or that is better sounding as they are just diff in presentation
Definate uplift with spdif as one would expectIt doesn’t help, but thanks anyway
CAD USB II-R: One Cable to Rule Them All! I appreciate this is a very bold statement and it may invite pushback, especially from this knowledgable group. The audacity of the statement is compounded by the fact it is in respect of a USB cable and is being posted on a WBF string dealing with primarily SPDIF and AES digital cables.
I'm not disputing that SPDIF and AES cables can bring a certain naturalness (dare I say, an analogue quality) to the signal between a computer (e.g. server or server/streamer) and a DAC. I have found that too. It is counterintuitive, though, given that an asynchronous USB signal should have less jitter (i.e. digital induced noise) by allowing the DAC to assume conversion clocking duties. However, if there is one truism in this hobby/passion-pursuit it's ripe with conflict between what should be and what is.
It would be inconsiderate of your time to regale you with my various digital component and cable upgrades over the last 20 years, so I will cut to the current chapter. I have the Oladra as my server/streamer and the Horizon DAC. I noticed from this thread that many of you have the Horizon too. As much as I would love to talk about the Horizon, this is not the place. There are other WBF forums dedicated to that. My go-to USB cable for several years has been Synergistic Research's Galileo UEF USB, tangentially connected to a SR Grounding Block. I also owned a Crystal Cable SPDIF and experimented with a few AES digital cables.
The three primary considerations that caused me to choose a USB cable are:
- SPDIF and AES cables are format/bandwidth limited and I enjoy many hi-res (e.g. DSD) files on my server.
- the Horizon is marvellously engineered and if I need to chose between its clock works and the Oladra's, then I will chose the former.
- As noted above, asynchronous USB if properly done should be better, which brings me to my CAD experience and this review.
The executive summary is as follows. Admittedly, my SPDIF cable experience was not unlike yours. I found that the Galileo UEF reduced the gap between the "USB sound" and the "SPDIF/AES sound". The CAD USB II-R closes it shut, and then takes it up another notch.
So what led me to purchase my CAD cable? A trip to the 2022 Munich Hi-End Show, where I met Scott Berry and his wife, Isabelle, the owners of Computer Audio Design. I was very impressed by the engineering and design approach and attendant sound reflected in CAD products, including the1543 DAC. I also had the opportunity to talk with Scott and learn more about his views on the inherent shortcomings of digital playback (including USB cables), and how to properly address them. As with all things digital (and audio, for that matter) it's about "noise" and how best to mitigate or avoid it.
I'm usually a bit sceptical when I hear the word "filter". It comes up in the audio world in many contexts, including power conditioners. However, Scott's design approach for USB is akin to a car's air filter taking out elements that impede clean combustion and the engine's ignition management system to regulate the timing of fuel and spark to avoid knock. Digital audio similarly requires pure signals regulated within a proper time domain.
At the end of my visit to the CAD room, Isabelle kindly left me with the "CAD USB Filter", https://www.computeraudiodesign.com/cad-usb-filter/
It's a device that can be plugged into the output end of any USB cable. When I returned from my Munich trip, I did exactly that with my Galileo UEF cable. Was the difference immediately apparent? Yes. Did I like what I was hearing? Definitely! The CAD USB Filter closed the gap between the sound of my USB cable and the AES and coaxial digital cables.
In Munich, Isabelle advised that CAD was working on a new version of its then current USB cable. It was being completely reworked to fully capture CAD's latest discoveries, including the incorporation of its filter technology within the geometry of the new cable - the "CAD USB II-R", https://www.computeraudiodesign.com/cad-usb-cables/
I bought CAD's newest USB cable a couple of months ago. It requires about 120 hours of break-in. I reached that milestone recently. I also wanted to make sure all of the other elements in my system, including the Oladra and new Horizon converter and rectifier tubes were fully broken in to eliminate their influence from the evaluation equation.
The first point to be made is that CAD's USB cable doesn't sound like a USB cable. I'd describe it as a pure transmission line. There has been much debate around what part of an audio system is most important. I don't want to reignite that debate, so I will say that for me it's the front end. Source components sound best when they can speak (or sing) with an unadulterated voice. That's what the CAD USB II-R has done between the Oladra and Horizon in my system.
The Horizon DAC renders music is a beautiful and most believable way and much has been written about it in this and other forums, so I will not repeat past comments here. I'll say simply that the CAD USB II-R allows for a complete and unadulterated expression of the Horizon's qualities and virtues. As good as the Galileo UEF USB and Crystal Cable SPDIF were, this cable has demonstrated that they weren't nearly as neutral as I had thought.
Lukasz has done an incredible job of stripping the digital-ness out of his DAC's. The Horizon illustrates that feat best. CAD's latest USB cable does the same. It stands at Oladra's gate to make sure that quality is not compromised. So what am I hearing: more atmosphere and inner detail, even more clarity, a wider and deeper soundstage and most notably far greater separation of sounds and more space for voices. In short, more of the things that the Horizon is known for.
Julie London's voice in "Cry Me A River" on The Wonderful Sounds of Female Vocals comes though with a level of fulness and husk that I had never heard before. Jennifer Warnes "Ballad of the Runaway Horse", on the same album, is a fairly noisy recording and when her voice swells to the highest octaves it was a bit pitchy and grainy with my other digital cables, but not now. Ursine Vulpine's version of Chris Isaak's "Wicked Game" and Agnes Obel's "Familiar" on her Citizen of Glass album have more depth and separation of sounds. The clarity of Karen Souza's "Don't Let the Sun Go Down on Me" from Velvet Vault is incredible. All the little background noises in the Jodie Nicholson's recording of "Comfortably Numb" on Live at The Old Church Studio are more obvious.
From what little I know about Scott's design of the CAD USB II-R, it appears to include a focus on cable geometry (as does Nordost and Crystal) and metallurgy (as does FTA). Regardless of the how, it clearly delivers the - WHAT!
Ray
I'm not disputing that SPDIF and AES cables can bring a certain naturalness (dare I say, an analogue quality) to the signal between a computer (e.g. server or server/streamer) and a DAC. I have found that too. It is counterintuitive, though, given that an asynchronous USB signal should have less jitter (i.e. digital induced noise) by allowing the DAC to assume conversion clocking duties. However, if there is one truism in this hobby/passion-pursuit it's ripe with conflict between what should be and what is.
It would be inconsiderate of your time to regale you with my various digital component and cable upgrades over the last 20 years, so I will cut to the current chapter. I have the Oladra as my server/streamer and the Horizon DAC. I noticed from this thread that many of you have the Horizon too. As much as I would love to talk about the Horizon, this is not the place. There are other WBF forums dedicated to that. My go-to USB cable for several years has been Synergistic Research's Galileo UEF USB, tangentially connected to a SR Grounding Block. I also owned a Crystal Cable SPDIF and experimented with a few AES digital cables.
The three primary considerations that caused me to choose a USB cable are:
- SPDIF and AES cables are format/bandwidth limited and I enjoy many hi-res (e.g. DSD) files on my server.
- the Horizon is marvellously engineered and if I need to chose between its clock works and the Oladra's, then I will chose the former.
- As noted above, asynchronous USB if properly done should be better, which brings me to my CAD experience and this review.
The executive summary is as follows. Admittedly, my SPDIF cable experience was not unlike yours. I found that the Galileo UEF reduced the gap between the "USB sound" and the "SPDIF/AES sound". The CAD USB II-R closes it shut, and then takes it up another notch.
So what led me to purchase my CAD cable? A trip to the 2022 Munich Hi-End Show, where I met Scott Berry and his wife, Isabelle, the owners of Computer Audio Design. I was very impressed by the engineering and design approach and attendant sound reflected in CAD products, including the1543 DAC. I also had the opportunity to talk with Scott and learn more about his views on the inherent shortcomings of digital playback (including USB cables), and how to properly address them. As with all things digital (and audio, for that matter) it's about "noise" and how best to mitigate or avoid it.
I'm usually a bit sceptical when I hear the word "filter". It comes up in the audio world in many contexts, including power conditioners. However, Scott's design approach for USB is akin to a car's air filter taking out elements that impede clean combustion and the engine's ignition management system to regulate the timing of fuel and spark to avoid knock. Digital audio similarly requires pure signals regulated within a proper time domain.
At the end of my visit to the CAD room, Isabelle kindly left me with the "CAD USB Filter", https://www.computeraudiodesign.com/cad-usb-filter/
It's a device that can be plugged into the output end of any USB cable. When I returned from my Munich trip, I did exactly that with my Galileo UEF cable. Was the difference immediately apparent? Yes. Did I like what I was hearing? Definitely! The CAD USB Filter closed the gap between the sound of my USB cable and the AES and coaxial digital cables.
In Munich, Isabelle advised that CAD was working on a new version of its then current USB cable. It was being completely reworked to fully capture CAD's latest discoveries, including the incorporation of its filter technology within the geometry of the new cable - the "CAD USB II-R", https://www.computeraudiodesign.com/cad-usb-cables/
I bought CAD's newest USB cable a couple of months ago. It requires about 120 hours of break-in. I reached that milestone recently. I also wanted to make sure all of the other elements in my system, including the Oladra and new Horizon converter and rectifier tubes were fully broken in to eliminate their influence from the evaluation equation.
The first point to be made is that CAD's USB cable doesn't sound like a USB cable. I'd describe it as a pure transmission line. There has been much debate around what part of an audio system is most important. I don't want to reignite that debate, so I will say that for me it's the front end. Source components sound best when they can speak (or sing) with an unadulterated voice. That's what the CAD USB II-R has done between the Oladra and Horizon in my system.
The Horizon DAC renders music is a beautiful and most believable way and much has been written about it in this and other forums, so I will not repeat past comments here. I'll say simply that the CAD USB II-R allows for a complete and unadulterated expression of the Horizon's qualities and virtues. As good as the Galileo UEF USB and Crystal Cable SPDIF were, this cable has demonstrated that they weren't nearly as neutral as I had thought.
Lukasz has done an incredible job of stripping the digital-ness out of his DAC's. The Horizon illustrates that feat best. CAD's latest USB cable does the same. It stands at Oladra's gate to make sure that quality is not compromised. So what am I hearing: more atmosphere and inner detail, even more clarity, a wider and deeper soundstage and most notably far greater separation of sounds and more space for voices. In short, more of the things that the Horizon is known for.
Julie London's voice in "Cry Me A River" on The Wonderful Sounds of Female Vocals comes though with a level of fulness and husk that I had never heard before. Jennifer Warnes "Ballad of the Runaway Horse", on the same album, is a fairly noisy recording and when her voice swells to the highest octaves it was a bit pitchy and grainy with my other digital cables, but not now. Ursine Vulpine's version of Chris Isaak's "Wicked Game" and Agnes Obel's "Familiar" on her Citizen of Glass album have more depth and separation of sounds. The clarity of Karen Souza's "Don't Let the Sun Go Down on Me" from Velvet Vault is incredible. All the little background noises in the Jodie Nicholson's recording of "Comfortably Numb" on Live at The Old Church Studio are more obvious.
From what little I know about Scott's design of the CAD USB II-R, it appears to include a focus on cable geometry (as does Nordost and Crystal) and metallurgy (as does FTA). Regardless of the how, it clearly delivers the - WHAT!
Ray
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A well-written and thought out review. Kudos.
Not sure why you posted this under "SPDIF" cables, not USB?
So many cables, so little time to explore them all......
Not sure why you posted this under "SPDIF" cables, not USB?
So many cables, so little time to explore them all......
Thanks Ray for putting this company on my radar! Interesting products, would certainly be interested in both their USB and grounding cables. Have you tried their GC products?
Hi Keith. I'm looking at the CAD GC products as we speak. TAS is going to be reviewing them in upcoming issue #341. I found Scott Berry very approachable and helpful if you have any questions. His email is scott@computeraudiodesign.com
Here's his response to my initial question concerning his grounding products:
The Ground Controls are designed to be connected directly to audio components through unused connectors. This gives an easy method to link the Ground Control to the Signal Ground of the audio component. It is important to connect the Ground Control as physically close to the electronics that are producing the noise and for this connection to have as low impedance as possible. The Ground Controls contain materials made for us that operate in different frequency spectrums that we laminate together. These materials convert energy within certain frequency spectrums into heat. The Ground Controls convert this “energy” (noise) into heat from about 1MHz up into the GHz range.
I have no idea what or how the Synergistic Research Grounding products work, but I always encourage Synergistic Research customers to try a CAD Ground Control. Feedback has been extremely good.
The new lower cost USB Control is a smaller device that also reduces noise on Signal Ground, but not as much as a GC1.1. What it does do that GC1.1 does not is reduce noise on the +5Vdc power that all USB Ports have. This +5Vdc is commonly used in other parts of the audio components circuitry.
Both the GC1.1 and USB Control work very well on their own, but they complement each other and for customers that have a high resolution system such as yours the improvement that the $750 USB Control offers can be astonishing. In the CH Precision Room at Munich this year Roy Gregory and Stirling Trayle used 7 USB Controls along with our Ground Controls.
If you like what the USB II-R Cable is doing I would expect you would also like a GC1.1 Ground Control and USB Control connected to your Antipodes Oladra. We just did this at the NW Audio Show in Cranage, UK last June with an Aurender Server:
https://www.instagram.com/p/CtoyjiHRtvD
Thanks. I'm intrigued as well and similarly might try the CAD GC cables with my Shunyata grounding options on the Denali.
Regarding USB GC, that's just a bit beyond my understanding. Is it due to the noise and voltage creep in the 5V USB? Otherwise that should be a digital signal compared to the voltage noises in say analog ICs, etc.
Hi Keith. In my case, the 3 Oldara main USB ports are connected directly to the motherboard. I believe, but can't say for sure, that most computers, servers and streamers with USB outputs are configured that way. The motherboard (i.e. main circuit board) does many things including connecting all of the device hardware to the processor and distributing electricity from the power supply(ies). Those and some other tasks generate digital hash, as I call it (i.e. high frequency noise). Even though it's well beyond our hearing range, the noise can apparently interfere with component signals that fall within our hearing range. How that happens exactly, I'm not qualified to answer.
The USB Control plugs into one of the 3 USB ports of the Oladra (in my case), but not to a USB Audio Port because those ports will not necessarily have +5V connection. The USB Control is designed to be a sink for those high frequency emissions off the motherboard. I suspect that Antipodes and other manufacturers of high quality servers, streamers and the like do their darnedest to mitigate digital processing and switching noise, so it will be interesting to see whether CAD's latest addition to that fray makes an auditable difference. I will let you know when I get a CAD USB Control and give it a try.
Hope this helps. I'm hardly an expert in the field, so you might want to contact Scott Berry at CAD if you have further questions.
Regards,
Ray
The USB Control plugs into one of the 3 USB ports of the Oladra (in my case), but not to a USB Audio Port because those ports will not necessarily have +5V connection. The USB Control is designed to be a sink for those high frequency emissions off the motherboard. I suspect that Antipodes and other manufacturers of high quality servers, streamers and the like do their darnedest to mitigate digital processing and switching noise, so it will be interesting to see whether CAD's latest addition to that fray makes an auditable difference. I will let you know when I get a CAD USB Control and give it a try.
Hope this helps. I'm hardly an expert in the field, so you might want to contact Scott Berry at CAD if you have further questions.
Regards,
Ray
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