Large scale that really showcase acoustic soundstaging, depth, and space

[tima]

How about the Reference Recordings Saint-Saens Organ Symphony done by the Kansas City Symphony?

This one? Do you like it?

Saint-Saëns - Symphony No. 3 in C minor, op. 78 "Organ" - The Audio Beat - www.TheAudioBeat.com

read audio reviews, ratings, and user opinions on audio equipment before you buy an audio system

www.theaudiobeat.com

Since that review, I've come to also enjoy these from French orchestras. Martinon recorded lots of Saint-Saéns.

HMV ASD 3674


HMV ASD 585

 

[microstrip]

as far as scale, depth and space, 45 rpm will optimize all of those as a tool to use.

Or simply tape. Vinyl has monophonic low bass - something that limits the effects the OP is looking for. It is why comparing the same vinyl to tape we usually find the soundstage of tape more expansive and enveloping than the vinyl and wise manufacturers sometimes use to tape in shows.

Probably the cut off frequency at 45 rpm is lower than at 33 rpm and it is why you think they are optimal for this purpose.

There a few exceptional vinyl recordings with stereo bass - ChatGPT gave me a few that I quote bellow. However we should remember that in "non natural" recordings soundstage is created by manipulating phase and IMO should not be used for such tests.

Modern Audiophile & Experimental Pressings
Daft Punk – Random Access Memories (2013)
This album was carefully mastered for vinyl with extended stereo imaging, including some stereo bass elements.
Trentemøller – The Last Resort (2006)
Known for deep electronic soundscapes, some tracks contain stereo bass elements.
Massive Attack – Mezzanine (1998, reissues)
Some reissues have maintained a more spatial low-end compared to standard vinyl mastering.
2. Some Direct Metal Mastering (DMM) Releases
Kraftwerk – Tour de France Soundtracks (2003)
Some pressings feature low-end detail with a wider stereo field.
Some Classic DMM Jazz Releases
Direct Metal Mastering allows for greater groove precision, which can allow stereo bass in some cases.
3. Dance/Electronic Test Pressings & Special Cuts
Some DJ-oriented vinyl pressings attempt stereo bass, but they’re usually designed for specific turntable setups.
Dubstep, deep house, and techno genres may experiment with stereo sub-bass, but usually with careful EQ and mastering techniques.
4. Japanese & High-End Pressings
Some Japan-pressed vinyl (e.g., half-speed mastered versions) have experimented with wider stereo bass, though it's rare. (end of quote)

 

[tony22]

This one? Do you like it?

Yes, that’s the one. It’s a good recording sonically, and decent from a performance POV. I’d say it’s worth getting if you’re a Saint-Saens fan.

I have the Martinon only on CD, but on vinyl I have the Munch, the Paray, and the Fremaux recordings. All copies are from their respective first releases. How do you like these two that you have shown?

 

[mtemur]

I love large scale classical.
Take a look at this thread for some ideas:

Videos - oomph, tympani, menace, power

Show me if you got the power

www.whatsbestforum.com

Here's a couple of mine from it:

What are the phono stages you are testing?

I really liked the videos you shared. IMHO, they sound great, and those JBL speakers paired well with the Lamm amps-18 watts and very impressive.

I remember listening to the Usher version of those speakers at local distributor’s showroom. They sounded very good with outboard crossovers, TAD 4001 drivers, and TAD wooden horns. Unfortunately, the 15” bass drivers were not TAD 1601s. If I’m not mistaken, the Ushers are a bit larger than the JBL 9500.

A couple of years ago, they appeared on the used market for around $10K, but their enormous size is a major drawback.

 

[DasguteOhr]

Two good recordings for that

 

[tima]

I really liked the videos you shared. IMHO, they sound great, and those JBL speakers paired well with the Lamm amps-18 watts and very impressive.

I remember listening to the Usher version of those speakers at local distributor’s showroom. They sounded very good with outboard crossovers, TAD 4001 drivers, and TAD wooden horns. Unfortunately, the 15” bass drivers were not TAD 1601s. If I’m not mistaken, the Ushers are a bit larger than the JBL 9500.

A couple of years ago, they appeared on the used market for around $10K, but their enormous size is a major drawback.

Thank you! Yes, they are imposing when assembled. Each speaker comprises 3 seperate cabinets plus crossover. The last large JBL that can be driven by a relatively low wattage SET. I feel fortunate to have them, thanks to @ddk.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

Or simply tape. Vinyl has monophonic low bass - something that limits the effects the OP is looking for. It is why comparing the same vinyl to tape

nope. not true. not even close to being true.

but with an open mind please describe exactly what you mean by monophonic? and exactly what is 'low' bass? what do we hear that tells us that? and i will look forward to getting educated.

 

[microstrip]

nope. not true. not even close to being true.

Does not most vinyl have monophonic bass?

 

[Mike Lavigne]

Does not most vinyl have monophonic bass?

off the top of my head i cannot think of one Lp i like with mono bass. but reasonably i'm sure some are that way.

maybe the best and most real bass of any recording i know about might be the double bass of Ray Brown on Midnight Serenade. a Jeton direct to disc Lp. the realism of the double bass on the left side is profound. the image is full range and alive pulsing with energy.

 

[Al M.]

off the top of my head i cannot think of one Lp i like with mono bass. but reasonably i'm sure some are that way.

maybe the best and most real bass of any recording i know about might be the double bass of Ray Brown on Midnight Serenade. a Jeton direct to disc Lp. the realism of the double bass on the left side is profound. the image is full range and alive pulsing with energy.

It doesn't matter if the bass sounds on the left side, the low bass can still be mono because it is non-directional.

In my old system I had a single subwoofer located half left, and stand-up bass (double bass) on the right channel sounded through my two-way monitors back then indeed on the right, even though the low bass was blended in from the subwoofer located on the half left. Everything about the stand-up bass, even the low frequencies, seemed to come with one voice from the right channel, no image shifting or such. Again, because low bass is non-directional the location of the sub didn't matter for the imaging.

 

[microstrip]

off the top of my head i cannot think of one Lp i like with mono bass. but reasonably i'm sure some are that way.

I am not discussing the LPs you like, just most LPs. The only way to know about it is looking at the spectra of both channels in an analyser. The need to have longer music content in each side forced low bass mono using an eliptical filter /equalizer - I read about it long ago in an article about Decca recordings. We can find references to it also in this article https://www.rpmrecords.dk/blog/record-cutting-and-stereo-bass-for-vinyl/

maybe the best and most real bass of any recording i know about might be the double bass of Ray Brown on Midnight Serenade. a Jeton direct to disc Lp. the realism of the double bass on the left side is profound.

Thanks, of interest, but it is not was being addressed by the OP. And localization of instruments does not depend on low bass.

 

[Al M.]

And localization of instruments does not depend on low bass.

Yes, exactly my point.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

It doesn't matter if the bass sounds on the left side, the low bass can still be mono because it is non-directional.

In my old system I had a single subwoofer located half left, and stand-up bass (double bass) on the right channel sounded through my two-way monitors back then indeed on the right, even though the low bass was blended in from the subwoofer located on the half left. Everything about the stand-up bass, even the low frequencies, seemed to come with one voice from the right channel, no image shifting or such. Again, because low bass is non-directional the location of the sub didn't matter for the imaging.

I am not discussing the LPs you like, just most LPs. The only way to know about it is looking at the spectra of both channels in an analyser. The need to have longer music content in each side forced low bass mono using an eliptical filter /equalizer - I read about it long ago in an article about Decca recordings. We can find references to it also in this article https://www.rpmrecords.dk/blog/record-cutting-and-stereo-bass-for-vinyl/



Thanks, of interest, but it is not was being addressed by the OP. And localization of instruments does not depend on low bass.

in my system i have lots of stereo bass capability. as much as anyone probably. twin 7.5 foot tall, 700 pound bass towers. plus -4- 11" mid woofers in the passive main towers covering 35hz-250hz per side. -3db at @ 7hz and -6db @ 3hz. so if the bass is there i get to hear it. in two channels. all of it.

i would agree that likely below a certain frequency regardless of which channel the bass is in it is omni-directional. but where that is likely varies from system to system. OTOH whether those omni frequencies are always equal in both channels is a question. my sense is that cut off of omni bass is quite low; below 30hz probably. so having very linear bass down to 20 or 30 hz is important for optimal bass stereo imaging.

and i have plenty of direct to disc pressings with for sure stereo bass. and plenty of tapes where we know the bass is stereo. don't know how all my records are mixed, but my expectation is the majority are mixed with stereo bass. even active anti resonance for optimal stylus tracking of the groove with minimal feedback.

but how do my ears process it? it's a fair question. but i don't notice mono bass at all. and the images i hear are full range. but who knows? i'll pay more attention. but what i can say is my vinyl bass is way better than my digital bass. and it's not close. so whatever is going on, my experience is stereo bass.

 

[DasguteOhr]

Does not most vinyl have monophonic bass?

That's exactly why it's important to filter out subwoofers with steep slopes above 100 Hz, otherwise you'll get phase problems that smear your soundstage image. The easiest way is to stack the subwoofers in the middle between the main speakers. Since the sound is radiated like a ball in the bass range, you'll have the least room mode excitation there.

 

[Ron Resnick]

Vinyl has monophonic low bass -

I agree with Mike; what in the world are you talking about?

 

[Ron Resnick]

In answer to the OP's question I nominate Reference Recordings' Symphony Fantastique.

And Francisco . . . ain't no bass on this recording that's monophonic!

 

[DasguteOhr]

Vinyl is allways cut under 100hz in mono or summend L/R center chanel.
Your cartridge can't take that movement in full stereo to high amplitude.
you have to amplify bass by 20db riaa curve to even hear bass at the same level

 

[Argonaut]

I agree with Mike; what in the world are you talking about?

@microstrip is in fact quite correct where lower bass frequencies are concerned , in the main this is due to how the recording has been mixed and ultimately produced , particularly early stereo productions of recordings where in the mix bass notes below certain frequencies , often around 100Hz descending , sometimes a little higher are left as monophonic , the rational being that there was no real world need to apply stereo effects below those levels as bass frequencies are decreasingly identified by the human brain as a point source.

At its most basic , just because one hears a bass line emanating from ones left and right channel does not make it stereo … unless stereo effect has been applied to those frequencies in the mix.

 

[bonzo75]

@microstrip is in fact quite correct where lower bass frequencies are concerned , in the main this is due to how the recording has been mixed and ultimately produced , particularly early stereo productions of recordings where in the mix bass notes below certain frequencies , often around 100Hz descending , sometimes a little higher are left as monophonic , the rational being that there was no real world need to apply stereo effects below those levels as bass frequencies are decreasingly identified by the human brain as a point source.

How is it being monophonic relevant to the point Mike was making? Micro put a random point to make vinyl bass look less appetizing - I doubt you are saying he was correct there

 

[Argonaut]

How is it being monophonic relevant to the point Mike was making? Micro put a random point to make vinyl bass look less appetizing - I doubt you are saying he was correct there

I was replying to @microstrips comment that such effects are record mix dependant .

Remind me as to what point Mike was making ?