Live vs. Reproduced?

[RogerD]

Gary,

and I might add that along with dynamics,ambient retreival and micro detail are very important. I guess the mind could stitch together parts to make a whole,but the greater percentage that is revealed the greater the realism.

I was sitting here thinking about this and let me make a few other points. When my system is sounding up to speed. I rarely go over 10'oclock to 10:30 on my volume control,that gives me plenty of dynamics and volume.

There is a sweet spot that seems to kick in the power supply capacitance of the preamp. Now i'm running 2 SS monoblocks that have 25 amp circuit breakers, 1 250w amp for my psychoacoustics circuit,1 200W amp driving a dual stereo 16" sub and a
1500W velodyne 18 subwoofer, my main sateillite speakers are 92db efficent. Also I use 2 small 2 way speakers for the psychoacoustics, in that regard my system is probably unique.

I have godziila power available but I would never use it all nor do I need to.

 

[silviajulieta]

Hi Gary,

Maybe I missed that in part of the thread. A live orchestra can at times be loud,but most of the time it's the level of dynamics that makes it so beautiful. A cymbal crash that startles you a drum whack that sounds like a gun going off,a oboe solo that is mesmirising,and a flute solo that stirs the emotion. The power and majesty of a full orchestra in total harmony is breathtaking. Can that be reproduced? Some of us think in our systems "that sounds live". "Live" in my world has nothing to do with volume levels, it is the reproduction of dynamics from ppp to ff.

Dear RogerD: Agree. This was what I posted in page 24 post #235:

http://www.whatsbestforum.com/showthread.php?3000-Live-vs.-Reproduced/page24

and this my first post in this thread on page 17 post #163:

http://www.whatsbestforum.com/showthread.php?3000-Live-vs.-Reproduced/page17


Seems to me that live MUSIC Transients/Speed/Power/Dynamics and Distortions characteristics have a way different meaning to fas42.


Regards and enjoy the music,
Raul.

 

[garylkoh]

Hi Gary,

Maybe I missed that in part of the thread. A live orchestra can at times be loud,but most of the time it's the level of dynamics that makes it so beautiful. A cymbal crash that startles you a drum whack that sounds like a gun going off,a oboe solo that is mesmirising,and a flute solo that stirs the emotion. The power and majesty of a full orchestra in total harmony is breathtaking. Can that be reproduced? Some of us think in our systems "that sounds live". "Live" in my world has nothing to do with volume levels, it is the reproduction of dynamics from ppp to ff.

May be that is the problem with such a discussion - what I took away from Frank's posts is that it is a "live" level he is talking about. May be he did not mean that at all. I completely agree with you that is dynamics that make the sound sound "live". Most systems can play a "general" level excellently. That is why so many manufacturers use female vocals to demo their systems so successfully at audio shows. It is far easier to "sound live" with material like that than it is with full orchestra, a big band, or rock.

I find most systems struggle from ppp to pp and ff to fff. Low level details get lost in the noise and get smeared into a hash. High level details get compressed and then distorted. I get why some of what Frank's doing helps with the ppp to pp. I don't get where it can do ff or fff.

 

[mep]

Gary-I think your take on what Frank said is exactly right. Frank is talking about achieving a "live level" unless we are both mistaken and I don't think we are.

 

[RogerD]

May be that is the problem with such a discussion - what I took away from Frank's posts is that it is a "live" level he is talking about. May be he did not mean that at all. I completely agree with you that is dynamics that make the sound sound "live". Most systems can play a "general" level excellently. That is why so many manufacturers use female vocals to demo their systems so successfully at audio shows. It is far easier to "sound live" with material like that than it is with full orchestra, a big band, or rock.

I find most systems struggle from ppp to pp and ff to fff. Low level details get lost in the noise and get smeared into a hash. High level details get compressed and then distorted. I get why some of what Frank's doing helps with the ppp to pp. I don't get where it can do ff or fff.

I guess I'm back to my RFI & EMI premise. There is a certain point were the signal reproduced,that the noise floor of the recording can easily be heard. Another way I descibe it is that it seems possible to hear everything that the microphone picks up. Theoretically it should be possible to hear the air move through the horns or the action of piano or the levers on a sax. Or the spittle of the vocalists.

At times I have experienced this. Also the dynamic sound of a trumpet that seems to bounce off the ceiling or power of a Bosendorfer resonating off the floor.

Now this level of detail can be fleeting because I can hear these things and still be not satisfied and change something or unplug the power cord of my preamp and then hope that it comes back to this level.

Most will say my experience is impossible,but it is not if the system is operating at such a peak level. The problem is it is such a delicate balance and it takes time to understand what makes the damn thing "tick" and then be satisfied. In this hobby that seems to be the biggest problem,being satisfied.

 

[microstrip]

(...) That is why so many manufacturers use female vocals to demo their systems so successfully at audio shows. It is far easier to "sound live" with material like that than it is with full orchestra, a big band, or rock.

I find most systems struggle from ppp to pp and ff to fff. Low level details get lost in the noise and get smeared into a hash. High level details get compressed and then distorted.(...)

As you say ff to fff is critical in most big orchestra recordings. I found that is one of the most difficult thinks to predict in audio - will a system in a room sound powerful and big, or will it sound congested, seeming too loud? A few Shostakovitch symphonies are excellent tests for this. Some times I try to persuade some non audiophile music lover friends that these pieces (that I really enjoy) are great music. If the system is sounding really good, sometimes they are attracted by the harmony and drama brought by the power of this music. But if is one these days when I am trying something new and the system is not playing fine the reaction is always pure rejection - could you please turn the volume down?

 

[mep]

As you say ff to fff is critical in most big orchestra recordings. I found that is one of the most difficult thinks to predict in audio - will a system in a room sound powerful and big, or will it sound congested, seeming too loud? A few Shostakovitch symphonies are excellent tests for this. Some times I try to persuade some non audiophile music lover friends that these pieces (that I really enjoy) are great music. If the system is sounding really good, sometimes they are attracted by the harmony and drama brought by the power of this music. But if is one these days when I am trying something new and the system is not playing fine the reaction is always pure rejection - could you please turn the volume down?

You mean your system wasn't "on song?"

 

[garylkoh]

As you say ff to fff is critical in most big orchestra recordings. I found that is one of the most difficult thinks to predict in audio - will a system in a room sound powerful and big, or will it sound congested, seeming too loud? A few Shostakovitch symphonies are excellent tests for this. Some times I try to persuade some non audiophile music lover friends that these pieces (that I really enjoy) are great music. If the system is sounding really good, sometimes they are attracted by the harmony and drama brought by the power of this music. But if is one these days when I am trying something new and the system is not playing fine the reaction is always pure rejection - could you please turn the volume down?

Two of my favourite pieces for testing this are the Prelude to Chants d'Espagne by Isaac Albeniz (Austurias) and Bolero by Maurice Ravel. They are both instantly recognized by non-audiophiles, and the great recordings are absolutely spectacular. I use Austurias from Suite Espanola by FIM and Bolero from Decca conducted by Ansermet.

If the system can stay the course, it is exhilarating. If it doesn't, you end up wondering what all the fuss is about.

 

[JackD201]

Good choices Gary, time to get those LPs cleaned

 

[microstrip]

You mean your system wasn't "on song?"

I wouldn't dare using this term! But I agree that usually when a system is able to transmits this sensation of power the music seems more "in tune".

However some times the system is "on song " at moderate levels and only collapses at fff levels. This collapse is in sound quality and spaciousness - in these conditions the soundstage shrinks. The finale of the Shostakovitch 5th Symphony or Bolero, as suggested by Gary, are good examples. When you expect that to "see" the whole orchestra in full power and dimension, it implodes.

 

[fas42]

Finally, back on air!!

First of all, many thanks to all who came forward and offered encouraging words of support for my efforts here. I certainly do appreciate it ...

My mood during my last posts here were certainly not helped by my Internet connection playing up badly. I was struggling to read threads and post because of a dodgy wired connection at the main telephone socket. So -- glorious symbolism !! -- I bit the the bullet, ripped the wall plate out and hardwired, soldered the phone lines directly to the wires on the other side. A lightning strike a couple of years ago damaged this whole area and it has never been really right since, I've been through two plugs trying to get it to behave itself!

Of course, these ridiculous flimsy connectors used these days make it much worse, and don't mention the three filaments of human hair masquerading as copper wire in the the actual cable, which break as soon as you touch them!!

Anyway, onwards and upwards ...

Frank

 

[Phelonious Ponk]

Try "Sex Kills" from Joni Mitchell's "Travelogue." Massive orchestral dynamics and female vocals all on one track!

Tim

 

[fas42]

I don't believe it! (hmmm, where have I seen that before ... ). Internet is still playing up very badly, will have to investigate further!!

So to try and soldier on, I will throw everything in one message and persevere until I can get it to register on the website

There is a certain point were the signal reproduced,that the noise floor of the recording can easily be heard. Another way I descibe it is that it seems possible to hear everything that the microphone picks up. Theoretically it should be possible to hear the air move through the horns or the action of piano or the levers on a sax. Or the spittle of the vocalists.

At times I have experienced this. Also the dynamic sound of a trumpet that seems to bounce off the ceiling or power of a Bosendorfer resonating off the floor.

Now this level of detail can be fleeting because I can hear these things and still be not satisfied and change something or unplug the power cord of my preamp and then hope that it comes back to this level.

Most will say my experience is impossible,but it is not if the system is operating at such a peak level. The problem is it is such a delicate balance and it takes time to understand what makes the damn thing "tick" and then be satisfied. In this hobby that seems to be the biggest problem,being satisfied.

Roger, you're right at the edge of the "good stuff", no wonder you tuned into what I was saying. This is not relevant to what this thread is about, but if you're interested, would you be prepared to start a thread in the Tweaks subforum, say, where we could explore what you could try doing to get it stabilise at the peak level? Since you are so close I am certain you could make some headway by exploring various ideas ...

One of the reasons you getting the results are that you have far more power than you need -- I've mentioned this before -- so the amps and their power supplies are loafing normally, barely out of first gear. Once a component has to push a bit, then you start having troubles.

This collapse is in sound quality and spaciousness - in these conditions the soundstage shrinks. The finale of the Shostakovitch 5th Symphony or Bolero, as suggested by Gary, are good examples. When you expect that to "see" the whole orchestra in full power and dimension, it implodes.

Excellent example of what the system needs to get past. In spite of the ridicule, that's exactly what the 3" speakers can do if, as you say, the system is on song. The battle, as I just directed to Roger, is to keep it on song! And again, it is not the speakers, because obviously enough if that were the case then you could never get a finale to sound right. It IS in the electronics ...

I completely agree with you that is dynamics that make the sound sound "live". Most systems can play a "general" level excellently. That is why so many manufacturers use female vocals to demo their systems so successfully at audio shows. It is far easier to "sound live" with material like that than it is with full orchestra, a big band, or rock.

Gary, yes, it is the dynamics we're talking about. As also mentioned by Roger, the dynamics are there if the volume is low, but they still remain there as you wind up the volume. The system sound does not collapse at a certain point, provided the system is not actually clipping, you don't have to inwardly clench as the system hits the fff as you put it, because, because, the electronics are not distorting in a crucial way at this point.

Finally, Mark. Yes, the power supplies have been modded, and all the key components have not been changed, because in this case all the changes were additive: extra circuitry and components were brought in "assist" the existing circuitry, shall we say ...

Hopefully I'll get this stupid Internet problem sorted out soon ...

Frank

 

[fas42]

Dear DaveyF: At least I can attest that under some cirmcumstances when you hear your speaker tweeter at 1" the tweeter " disappear ".


In the other side I could say ( I want to think. ) that he knows what he is talking about but IMHO I think that even that he is talking in audio terms that all of us use and know the meaning of those audio terms is way different. I don't think he is literally deaf or crazy, only that he is talking in his own " audio language " that we can't even interpret it.

I don't think he is a " silly person " because ( as I posted ) he is clever enough that mantain people posting here page after page!

Problem with him too is that does not give precise answers even he does not gives answers when we ask, at least not all answers to all questions. That's why I said is: clever enough.

Regards and enjoy the music,
Raul.

I sorry if you feel that I haven't answered questions, Raul. If you want measurements I can't give them to you, because I don't have the equipment to do such. I am also sure that they would tell you nothing, because the typical measurements done are not looking in the right areas.

I'm pleased that at least some times you have got my infamous "disappearing tweeters".

So, if you feel there is still a question to be answered, taking note of the above, please ask!

Frank

 

[fas42]

Try "Sex Kills" from Joni Mitchell's "Travelogue." Massive orchestral dynamics and female vocals all on one track!

Tim

Another biggie: "Running Up That Hill", Kate Bush on CD. Builds up to a huge, dynamic soundscape, it's one to really see how far you've got. Interesting, on LP the dynamics appear to have been cut back quite a bit, the recording engineers decided that the medium couldn't take the full scale of what was recorded? ...

Frank

 

[fas42]

As a speaker designer and manufacture with a foot both in the subjective and objective camp, I totally disagree with Frank's assertion that a HTIB with little plastic speakers can sound "live", but not having heard that particular implementation I have to give him the benefit of the doubt that in his mind, he experiences what he experiences and if he thinks that at the other end of the house, he can imagine a live band playing in the room where his system is...... it defys the laws of physics, but you can't discount psychoacoustics and the illusion in Frank's mind (and I mean no disrespect).

The Internet is behaving itself a little bit better at the moment, so can slip in a couple more

Yes, that's the remarkable thing. Even from the other end of the house it is always obvious when it's on song, and when not. As someone said, if you hear a band outside your window, down the street you can always pick the real thing compared to even a very high quality PA. There must be a key element in the distortion content that the ear is very sensitive to, and which it uses to decide aye or naye.

It normally irritates me intensely when off song at this distance, so I either shut it down or start fiddling with the bits ...

Frank

 

[fas42]

What we disagree on are a) The importance of the stages involved; you seem to think that recordings and transducers are not at all important, are completely at the will of the electronics. I not only disagree, I think that's upside down. b) The way clean electronics are achieved; you seem to believe that if you tweak (and these are not even substantive changes) a poor system it can transcend its own design. I think clean, accurate electronics are, while not something that is necessarily very expensive, a result of excellent design, and that soldering a mains cable directly to the wall will affect nothing but your psychology.
..
The magic, as you yourself have said, is always illusive. The results are always unmeasurable. The methodologies always fall well short of even questionable. It is always psychology. Always has been, from the first meaningless, unmeasurable tweak. You are one of the most aggrieved victims of the syndrome I have ever met, Frank, and while you have my sympathy, with a bit of guilt I also thank you. This is a discussion board, and you've given us much to discuss. Your rantings from the dark corner of the room have resulted in a lot of real, substantive discussion that I have enjoyed very much and have learned much from. They may have even caused a few of the more normal tweakers to rethink. Keep up the good work.

Tim

PS: in the spirit of "a picture is worth a thousand words," I'd like to introduce my new avatar, a Mac Mini in platform shoes. Let's call him "Pee Wee" for Pee Wee Herman's Big Shoe Dance, shall we?

Thanks for the kind words, Tim. And to respond ...

a) The recordings are not at the mercy of the system, merely that the system allows the distortion components intrinsic to the recording to fade into the background, in the way you can enjoy a talented musical busker in the midst of a noisy street. Yes, in this case the "distortion" is really noise in the usually understood sense, but the ear/brain seems to be clever enough to treat recording distortion as noise in a similar vein. The main criterion is that the system is clean enough to let the low level information, the "micro detail" to come through, buried as it is in the noise and distortion. The mind will do the smart stuff, automatically, of separating the two ...

b) Tweaking CAN transcend a poor design: my efforts with the Philips were an experiment, to see what was possible. Interestingly, the standards of the plastic HT efforts in the shops has dropped quite a bit in 8 years or so, I got a shock at how flimsy and rubbishy the normal Sony, Yamaha stuff was at the moment when I looked just recently.

Finally, unfortunately, yes, the illusion is illusive -- just ask Roger. Not because you can't get it, but because you have to get so many things right. If you're happy to compromise, and say you're not bothered about trying for it, that's fine. But that doesn't invalidate the possibility of its existence ...

Cheers,
Frank

 

[RogerD]

Roger, you're right at the edge of the "good stuff", no wonder you tuned into what I was saying. This is not relevant to what this thread is about, but if you're interested, would you be prepared to start a thread in the Tweaks subforum, say, where we could explore what you could try doing to get it stabilise at the peak level? Since you are so close I am certain you could make some headway by exploring various ideas ...

One of the reasons you getting the results are that you have far more power than you need -- I've mentioned this before -- so the amps and their power supplies are loafing normally, barely out of first gear. Once a component has to push a bit, then you start having troubles.


Excellent example of what the system needs to get past. In spite of the ridicule, that's exactly what the 3" speakers can do if, as you say, the system is on song. The battle, as I just directed to Roger, is to keep it on song! And again, it is not the speakers, because obviously enough if that were the case then you could never get a finale to sound right. It IS in the electronics ...


Gary, yes, it is the dynamics we're talking about. As also mentioned by Roger, the dynamics are there if the volume is low, but they still remain there as you wind up the volume. The system sound does not collapse at a certain point, provided the system is not actually clipping, you don't have to inwardly clench as the system hits the fff as you put it, because, because, the electronics are not distorting in a crucial way at this point.

Finally, Mark. Yes, the power supplies have been modded, and all the key components have not been changed, because in this case all the changes were additive: extra circuitry and components were brought in "assist" the existing circuitry, shall we say ...

Hopefully I'll get this stupid Internet problem sorted out soon ...

Frank

Frank,

No my system is there. I was mostly talking about past experience. The monoblocks are incredibly clean with the star earth installed, they make my VAC 140's sound like a 3 star amplifier compared to a 5 star. Everybody has a reference recording and mine is the Martin Gould Copland Rodeo SACD, my system reproduces that recording with about 99 pct clarity and non-congestion. One of the hardest things to convey is the Composers intention for his composition. In Copland's masterpiece that emotion and musical brilliance comes through in spades. The same with Grofe's Grand Canyon Suite. Just a stunning recording. I really appreciate you bringing all these subjects up. It has been enlightening and fun to talk about our experiences.

I was thinking about how to describe what actually takes place when the earth ground begins to settle in and a butterfly is a good analogy. Because the sound is closed in at first and then very slowly it begins to open up. The midrange is always rock solid though like chiseled granite only in the latter stages does the bloom and micro detail appear, as the system opens fully it blooms with great beauty and accuracy. The highs sparkle and float,the bass definition and power explode. It is very exciting to witness such a metamorphisis.

Time to retire it's late.

Thanks again.

Just to clarify the time frame for the settling in of the earth star ground circuit. It is about 24 hours of playing time to bring it to the mid 90 pct level. It can continue to morph up to 100 hours I beleive.

 

[fas42]

Sorry I misunderstand, but very pleased that it's humming nicely for you! Unfortunately, I gave myself a hard task trying to get my littl'un to do the same all the time, but in the long term it will be worth it for the learning I'm getting from the exercise.

This is also an excuse to announce, hallelujah, I found my Internet problem! Turned out to a silly little passive splitter box separating modem and ordinary phone, basically just a capacitor network I would guess. Looks perfectly OK on the outside, but slotting a new one in fixed the problem. Just goes to show, never take anything, no matter how simple, for granted!!

Frank

 

[Phelonious Ponk]

Thanks for the kind words, Tim. And to respond ...

a) The recordings are not at the mercy of the system, merely that the system allows the distortion components intrinsic to the recording to fade into the background, in the way you can enjoy a talented musical busker in the midst of a noisy street. Yes, in this case the "distortion" is really noise in the usually understood sense, but the ear/brain seems to be clever enough to treat recording distortion as noise in a similar vein. The main criterion is that the system is clean enough to let the low level information, the "micro detail" to come through, buried as it is in the noise and distortion. The mind will do the smart stuff, automatically, of separating the two ...

b) Tweaking CAN transcend a poor design: my efforts with the Philips were an experiment, to see what was possible. Interestingly, the standards of the plastic HT efforts in the shops has dropped quite a bit in 8 years or so, I got a shock at how flimsy and rubbishy the normal Sony, Yamaha stuff was at the moment when I looked just recently.

Finally, unfortunately, yes, the illusion is illusive -- just ask Roger. Not because you can't get it, but because you have to get so many things right. If you're happy to compromise, and say you're not bothered about trying for it, that's fine. But that doesn't invalidate the possibility of its existence ...

Cheers,
Frank

a) Ear/brain is close. Mind/brain is more like it. When I use my headphone system the level of "micro detail" (actually, just "detail" is sufficient) coming through is stunning, but I can still hear bad recordings. Back in the day, when I would spend time in studios listening back to tracks I'd just recorded, on high-end monitor systems in carefully designed rooms, I could sometimes hear myself shift the pick between my fingers (micro enough?) but I could still hear flaws in the recordings. That was actually the idea. Your tweaks are the psychological trigger that allow your mind to believe what it must to tell your brain to perceive the unlikely to impossible. Mind/brain. The tweaks could be anything you would buy. None that you've described are substantial.

b) A Yugo will not become a Mini no matter how carefully you re-align the front end, and you and I will have to agree to disagree.

(pssst...the illusion is illusive because it is an illusion. It depends on your frame mind, not the state of your electronics. You, my friend, are what is on or off song.)

Tim