Live vs. Reproduced?

[Phelonious Ponk]

And I'm just trying to get on the same page with you in regards to your explanations of what you see as digital strengths. Some I agree with, some I don't. The recording should try and capture the event (whether it's live or recorded over a period of months in numerous studios with numerous musicians) as faithfully as the technology will allow it to according to the book of mep. And the best we can do is try and reproduce the recording that was made of the event. Davy's original point is well taken with me. And that is to go and hear live musicians playing is to be humbled with what is waiting for us back home.

And I agree with the book of Mep, and the book of Davy, chapter and verse.

Tim

 

[mep]

Microstrip-Tang was a powdered form of orange juice and hardly a substitute for the real thing.

 

[microstrip]

Microstrip-Tang was a powdered form of orange juice and hardly a substitute for the real thing.

Mep,
Thanks - I knew of it, but was joking. May be we could consider that Tang (granular) is like digital and pressed orange juice (fluid) is like analog !

 

[mep]

Mep,
Thanks - I knew of it, but was joking. May be we could consider that Tang (granular) is like digital and pressed orange juice (fluid) is like analog !

I just changed out of my food-fight clothes!

 

[DaveyF]

And I agree with the book of Mep, and the book of Davy, chapter and verse.

Tim

Tim, the book of Davy?
You mean the comic book of Davy...

 

[Phelonious Ponk]

Tim, the book of Davy?
You mean the comic book of Davy...

This is gospel to me, brother...

I started this thread with the observation that the 'live' event that I attended is IMHO the 'Absolute Sound', or reproduced goal if you will of the a'phile, and that IMHO, we are not within striking distance of being able to reproduce that event in our listening rooms!.

Embracing the reality that recording and reproduction don't really even get into the neighborhood of the real thing, understanding that there will always be huge compromises involved has set me free. It has allowed me to choose my compromises, embrace my favorite strengths, and be satisfied. Since then, I have spent my time and money discovering new music and great recordings, and it is much more rewarding.

Tim

 

[fas42]

OTOH, I wander when was the last time that the poster who has this belief attended a symphony?

Silly me, I guess I just feel in the mood at the moment to take it on ...

When I first got into the groove of being able to get good sound my disappointment was sometimes when I did go to the real thing, that it didn't have the impact of a recording! This was puzzling at first, but then the thought occurred that when recording a performance the engineers go to a great deal of effort, positioning the mic's for the best pickup of sound that they know how, for the particular venue and group of instruments; far better positioning then just plonking yourself in any old seat at a concert. Thus, a recording should normally be superior to attending the real thing -- I particularly remember a live piano recital on a concert stage where the instrument sound seemed somewhat toy like. Of course, the same piano and player transported into your lounge would come across dramatically different, which is exactly what you get in a decent recording ....

People here seem to forget that I have said many times that achieving this good sound is not push button easy, I am struggling at the moment to get my current project to behave itself. When it goes off, sounds bad, then it sounds hideous; it is sitting on a knife edge to get it exactly right. Yes, of course, you can just accept compromise, just enjoy the music, etc, etc, but that is not what I'm after. I want to enjoy all music I listen to, and all normal systems just fail to do that ...

Frank

 

[microstrip]

This is gospel to me, brother...
Embracing the reality that recording and reproduction don't really even get into the neighborhood of the real thing, understanding that there will always be huge compromises involved has set me free. It has allowed me to choose my compromises, embrace my favorite strengths, and be satisfied. Since then, I have spent my time and money discovering new music and great recordings, and it is much more rewarding.
Tim

Tim,

The neighborhood of the real thing is a very subjective notion. The denial option can help help people to focus their attention in the musical aspects. Then they become non-audiophiles. But they do not need to become anti-audiophiles...

I went through this phase long ago (both non and anti... ) - just a complete Quad system, speakers included, forgot hifi and started buying music magazines, buying several versions of the same work, just to choose the preferred interpretation, buying many recordings, going into "real music details". It was a good time and I valuate it highly - the best part of my recording collection comes from this phase. But after some time, the neighborhood of the real thing called my attention again.

BTW, Floyd E. Toole also addresses this issue of the neighborhood of the real thing masterly in his book "Sound Reproduction".

 

[Phelonious Ponk]

The neighborhood of the real thing is a very subjective notion. The denial option can help help people to focus their attention in the musical aspects.

Of course it is a very subjective notion, but it has nothing to do with denial. Once you get to the point that what your searching for is a realistic presentation of instruments and voices, not some romantic notion of a performance event, it's not all that subjective. Real instruments and voices disperse their information radically differently from what loudspeakers do. The change with room acoustics in radically different ways from loudspeakers, and from each other. No loudspeaker has a chance of reproducing both a piano and a trumpet accurately. That is not subjective. The denial, in my view, is in ignoring this fact and convincing yourself that you hear otherwise.

Anti-audiophile? Hardly. I am a "lover of sound" who has spent many years and many dollars to find what works for me in my listening space. And what I have chosen for the listening space I have now, by the sheer physics, presents greater detail resolution, a deeper view into the recording, than all but a very few high end systems. That, and as natural a tonality as I can get, what I've chosen to pursue. What I've sacrificed is deep bass. Scale? We can argue about that all day as it is largely undefinable, But the scale can be quite large in the only room that matters for my system.

Tim

 

[microstrip]

Of course it is a very subjective notion, but it has nothing to do with denial. Once you get to the point that what your searching for is a realistic presentation of instruments and voices, not some romantic notion of a performance event, it's not all that subjective.

The romantic notion of a performance event is one the reasons most of us find pleasure listening to music ... If I had never been to a live performance I could skip this aspect in my listening. Butt after seeing performers live I find great pleasure in the aspects that connect the music to the live presentation.

BTW, why do you consider that no loudspeaker has a chance of reproducing both a piano and a trumpet accurately?

 

[fas42]

BTW, why do you consider that no loudspeaker has a chance of reproducing both a piano and a trumpet accurately?

And the same again from me. Methinks Tim has given up well short of a reasonable goal if that is truly his stance ...

Frank

 

[Phelonious Ponk]

BTW, why do you consider that no loudspeaker has a chance of reproducing both a piano and a trumpet accurately?

The answer to your question is in the sentences that preceded my statement. The two instruments radiate sound so differently that it is impossible for a single speaker, with a single radiation pattern (that matches neither of those instruments) to do the job. A really good speaker can emulate the tonality, even come pretty close to the dynamics. A few can get the nuance. None can match the way the instruments would disperse sound in your room and so they will always sound like speakers, not like trumpets and pianos. If you think they do, it is perception, not reality, and you can believe that because you haven't spent enough time in small rooms with real instruments. Enjoy it.

Tim

 

[fas42]

None can match the way the instruments would disperse sound in your room and so they will always sound like speakers, not like trumpets and pianos.

So if you were in a soundproof room with a couple of holes cut out the size of large speaker drivers on either side of the end wall of the room, and a real piano and trumpet playing on the other side of the wall, then that would sound like a normal hifi system, it wouldn't sound real?

Frank

 

[microstrip]

The answer to your question is in the sentences that preceded my statement. The two instruments radiate sound so differently that it is impossible for a single speaker, with a single radiation pattern (that matches neither of those instruments) to do the job. A really good speaker can emulate the tonality, even come pretty close to the dynamics. A few can get the nuance. None can match the way the instruments would disperse sound in your room and so they will always sound like speakers, not like trumpets and pianos. If you think they do, it is perception, not reality, and you can believe that because you haven't spent enough time in small rooms with real instruments. Enjoy it.

Tim

I do not want to spend a single minute with a piano or a trumpet in a small room. I always listen to them in medium/large rooms or concert halls at a reasonable distance. The speakers should reproduce the sound wave generated by the instruments at some distance, not emulate them. I pretend to have an hifi system at home, not a PA system. In my view, the idea that a perfect speaker should emulate an instrument in any conditions is a misconception - it should recreate a certain sound field at some positions using a recording. The speaker should have some critical directional patterns of radiation versus frequency to be able do do it in adequate rooms. The room is always part of the sound reproduction, the recording engineers and speaker designers rely on it.

BTW, if you listen to an instrument in one small room, it can sound completely different in another one, as the radiation pattern will be completely different. Or in an open space. But, thanks to perception, one knows how it sounds.

 

[Phelonious Ponk]

So if you were in a soundproof room with a couple of holes cut out the size of large speaker drivers on either side of the end wall of the room, and a real piano and trumpet playing on the other side of the wall, then that would sound like a normal hifi system, it wouldn't sound real?

Frank

Huh?

Tim

 

[Phelonious Ponk]

In my view, the idea that a perfect speaker should emulate an instrument in any conditions is a misconception

We seem to agree, though many here do not, and what they hope for, beyond hope, is to recreate the original performance event in their listening rooms, to make it sound as if those instruments are playing in their homes. I have accepted that there is at least on limitation that cannot be breached (there are many more that have not been breached), that it will always be choices and compromises, and have taken it from there. As I said to Gary not long ago, I try to reproduce the recording, not re-create the performance, because I've decided not to chase phantoms when what's in front of me is so beautiful. If that's anti-audiophile I'm happy to accept the title.

Tim

 

[Ron Party]

When you can say that that piano sounds just like it did in a real space, then you are not obeying the laws of a two speaker system anymore...there are no natural events in a piano that produce its sound from two point sources spaced 8 to 10 feet apart.

Tom, couldn't we substitute any instrument for piano in this statement and the statement would remain true? Perhaps we might need to substitute an amplified instrument in your statement for there to be any possibility that two point sources could pull it off.

The illusion can be pretty good but why not just accept that it is an illusion, and accept the shortcomings of the "stereo" illusion. Anyway, most all the work is being done in your brain.

In many ways it's a dated format, deficient from it's inception roughly 70 or so years ago. Have you read Lexicon's white paper?

Additionally, I will say again that I doubt one in a hundred on this forum heard a live, unamplified, jazz event last year...do any even exist anywhere?

Count me in as one.

 

[fas42]

By the way Frank, whats your answer to your question?

Huh?

Okay, take it a step at a time ...

Step 1: Piano and trumpet being played in a reasonably sized, acoustically decent room. You are seated 20 feet away, listening to them. I think most people would agree that you should experience the sound of a real piano and trumpet ...

Step 2: Super fast workmen erect a superbly soundproof room around you of the size of a normal living room, so the wall in front of you is about 10 feet away, hence 10 feet away from the performers. As last step they cut, for argument's sake, two round 18" holes in this wall, say 10 feet apart.

Step 3: Voila! You now have two holes in a wall separating you from real music playing, these holes are pretending to be stereo speakers.

So to rephrase the question, does what you hear now sound like:

1) Real instruments, diminished in volume somewhat but still sounding totally as they normally do. You couldn't convince someone in the room with you that the sound coming through the holes wasn't from the real thing

2) Typical hi fi system, something sounding like piano and trumpet, but not all convincing, because your ears are upset with the sound only able to get to you through the two holes

3) Something else again

My answer is 1), who thinks 2) or 3)?

Frank

 

[Phelonious Ponk]

Okay, take it a step at a time ...

Step 1: Piano and trumpet being played in a reasonably sized, acoustically decent room. You are seated 20 feet away, listening to them. I think most people would agree that you should experience the sound of a real piano and trumpet ...

Step 2: Super fast workmen erect a superbly soundproof room around you of the size of a normal living room, so the wall in front of you is about 10 feet away, hence 10 feet away from the performers. As last step they cut, for argument's sake, two round 18" holes in this wall, say 10 feet apart.

Step 3: Voila! You now have two holes in a wall separating you from real music playing, these holes are pretending to be stereo speakers.

So to rephrase the question, does what you hear now sound like:

1) Real instruments, diminished in volume somewhat but still sounding totally as they normally do. You couldn't convince someone in the room with you that the sound coming through the holes wasn't from the real thing

2) Typical hi fi system, something sounding like piano and trumpet, but not all convincing, because your ears are upset with the sound only able to get to you through the two holes

3) Something else again

My answer is 1), who thinks 2) or 3)?

Frank

Frank, have you ever had a musician in your house, playing the cello or guitar or piano right there in the room with you? Now, if the musician is in another room, and you are in an anechoic chamber, listening to the playing through 18" holes in the wall, will the instruments sound "totally as they normally do?" Of course not. They will still be recognizable as cello, guitar, piano, but they certainly will not sound "totally as they normally do," because they cannot disperse into the room around you as they normally do. You're not even in the room they are dispersing into. And in that scenario, as imperfect as it is, you have more "transparent" speakers than you can ever hope to find in audiophilia. Thank you for illustrating my point.

Tim

 

[R Johnson]

I have the good fortune to hear the Chicago Symphony 30 or more times per year, plus opera, piano recitals, etc. I've heard several very good high end systems but they do fall a good ways short of reproducing the live CSO experience.

I should note that a good Blu-ray opera recording with a nice front projection AV system is a better total experience than live in the opera house. The improved visuals outweigh any audio deficiency.

Fortunately for my wallet, I am quite satisfied with a pleasing, reasonable facsimile at home. But I do enjoy reading about your quests for What's Best.

Last year I attended a musical recital at a piano teacher's studio - a space perhaps 20'x30'x18' high. A Steinway D concert grand and a Steinway C. Also violin, vocalists, etc. This was an evening where "blown away" is not an exaggeration.