LPs of new release music

[garylkoh]

Hi Gary, yes I have been following the other thread, I prefer not to get involved in the which is better part of it, but threads like these make this a great forum IMO. It is nice being able to "tap" the technical knowledge of some of the members here like yourself, I am learning a lot. Gary are most or all of the K2HD discs that much better than say what I call a standard redbook cd? The few that I have sure do sound good.

Dan

Ha! Sometimes I regret ever getting involved in a forum. This is the first forum I've participated in, and it's taking up an inordinate amount of my time!! But I'm learning just as much from other members of this forum as well.

Most of the K2HD discs are that much better. The K2HD Cantata Domino, for example, I find is better than the vinyl (but the vinylphiles will probably shoot me for this), but may be my analog system is not up to par.

 

[RBFC]

. The K2HD Cantata Domino, for example, I find is better than the vinyl (but the vinylphiles will probably shoot me for this), but may be my analog system is not up to par.

Gary, have you compared the K2HD version to the SACD? I have the SACD and wonder if it would be worthwhile to get the K2 also.

Lee

 

[garylkoh]

Gary, have you compared the K2HD version to the SACD? I have the SACD and wonder if it would be worthwhile to get the K2 also.

Lee

I have, and I think that the K2HD is better. However, it may be that my SACD player is only the Sony SCD-777.

 

[RBFC]

I have, and I think that the K2HD is better. However, it may be that my SACD player is only the Sony SCD-777.

Figured you'd say that.... $$$

Lee

 

[Mike Lavigne]

I have, and I think that the K2HD is better. However, it may be that my SACD player is only the Sony SCD-777.

i do expect that the problem is your SACD player. you need a Playback Designs or other SOTA SACD player.

i must resist the temptation to assume anything; but my SACD's are superior sounding to any K2 discs. i'd need to specifically hear the Cantante Domino K2 to say that the SACD was superior.

my 3 or 4 Lp pressings of Cantante Domino are a bit noisey. however; there is lots more information in those grooves than any of the digital versions i have. therefore i do consider the Lps clearly superior.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

ok.

it turns out i do have the K2HD version of Cantante Domino (Winston gave me one i forgot about). i also have the SACD and the Lp.

i just played them all, or.....track 11 of both digitals, Julsang. i played the K2HD, then the SACD, and then the K2HD again.

the K2HD is very very nice. big, bold, smooth, soaring. what's not to like?

the SACD has a much lower noise floor; which allows the soloist to actually seem like she is a person and not just a blob of a voice. the ambient clues define the space. there is texture. as the choir comes in there is a much better sense of a group of singers and not just sound. you notice a lack of distortion on the peaks compared to the K2HD.

not really even close, the SACD is easily better than the very enjoyable K2HD. it's only in direct comparison on a SOTA SACD player that the K2HD is lacking. btw; the Playbacks is the best redbook source i've yet heard, so it's not like the K2HD is less than well presented.

then we come to the Lp.

Hahahahahahahaha!!!!!!!!

not even in the same ballpark in any way. it wipes the floor with the digital.

real people singing. space. dynamics. did i say space? from the first note the room is pressurized with ambience. emotional. involving. glorious. tonal color and texture rich and full of detail and depth.

yes; a few pops and clicks. the mirror is slightly dirty but it's complete. the digital very nice but missing the essence in direct comparison.

when you have analog tape (particularly a famously wonderfully recorded analog tape) as a source then digital has zero shot at even competeing.

 

[garylkoh]

Haha! Mike, you have the best analog playback system on the planet - so in your system, I doubt if there would be any digital that would be better, or even match the LP.

I did suspect that my SACD player was not up to par. However, with as few SACDs as I have, I have had no incentive to upgrade. The Vacuum State (Allen Wright) modified Esoteric DV-50 I have is better, but it's also dead.

Did you buy the 4-CD version of In The Court Of The Crimson King? If you did, I'd be curious the difference between the 24/96 digital and the new remastered LP.

 

[RBFC]

Mike,

I agree with your comments. I had two copies of the Proprius LP of Cantate Domino, and they were far superior to the redbook CD and the SACD that I still own. The SACD is better than the CD. The LP, however, did sound more human. It was often hard to contain emotion as Marian Mellnas soloed in Julsang, and to actually feel the room get sucked out of air as the choir inhaled to enter in unison was amazing. I was running a SOTA Star Sapphire with ET2 arm and Lyra Clavis cartridge at the time. I will qualify my comments as my current digital front end is not in the class of the Playback Designs, etc.

That was simply a great recording that exudes a natural communication of the artists with the listener.

Lee

 

[flez007]

I have that Nathalie Merchant CD. Was that recorded in analog or digital for the LP version?

I am afraid it is Digital Amirm, just niche recorders insist on analog recordings.

 

[JackD201]

Remember Ken Kreisel and Jonas Miller? They attribute the increased sense of space in an LP as opposed to the digital master itself to artifacts in the vinyl playback system they dubbed "groove echo". This phenomenon which one can hear if one listens close to the speaker to the lead in track or between songs. Groove echo is very similar to room tone. Not only does it exaggerate the room tone in the recording but it also somehow aids in locking in the recorded room tone plus groove echo to the actual room tone of the listening environment. It's kind of the LP analog version of dithering except the noise is not directly related to the signal itself in amplitude supposedly making it easier for the listener's brain to filter it out much the same way it isn't all that hard to eventually ignore the sound of air-conditioning.

In music it is a big No-No to put what is essentially a noise layer on despite the fact that reverb and delays are not but for film post production it is an absolute must to add artificial room tone. Without it scenes come across as odd or disconcerting on a subliminal level for the viewer albeit insiders can almost always spot it when it's missing.

 

[MylesBAstor]

Remember Ken Kreisel and Jonas Miller? They attribute the increased sense of space in an LP as opposed to the digital master itself to artifacts in the vinyl playback system they dubbed "groove echo". This phenomenon which one can hear if one listens close to the speaker to the lead in track or between songs. Groove echo is very similar to room tone. Not only does it exaggerate the room tone in the recording but it also somehow aids in locking in the recorded room tone plus groove echo to the actual room tone of the listening environment. It's kind of the LP analog version of dithering except the noise is not directly related to the signal itself in amplitude supposedly making it easier for the listener's brain to filter it out much the same way it isn't all that hard to eventually ignore the sound of air-conditioning.

In music it is a big No-No to put what is essentially a noise layer on despite the fact that reverb and delays are not but for film post production it is an absolute must to add artificial room tone. Without it scenes come across as odd or disconcerting on a subliminal level for the viewer albeit insiders can almost always spot it when it's missing.

Then why does the sense of space vary from LP to LP --even on the same LP. Some LPs sound as dry as the Gobi and others are awash in space?

For that matter, great digital and analog masters do possess that sense of space.

 

[JackD201]

Hi Myles,

I do find that to be true especially of Japanese presses from the 80s Myles. The same can be said to a lesser degree about German pressings from DG around the same period. Dry as bones. If M&K are right, it would suggest the cutter head's size has something to do with it and also perhaps the degree of noise isolation of the entire lathe. Another factor would be more aggressive HF limiting to keep the cutter head's amps cool. Ken disclosed all this in an interview that came out sometime in the early 90s, after M&K had stopped producing LPs. The way I see it, coming from a TV/Movie audio background, their theory makes sense. I'm just speculating though. I've wanted to ask him the same question myself since I first read that.

 

[MylesBAstor]

Hi Myles,

I do find that to be true especially of Japanese presses from the 80s Myles. The same can be said to a lesser degree about German pressings from DG around the same period. Dry as bones. If M&K are right, it would suggest the cutter head's size has something to do with it and also perhaps the degree of noise isolation of the entire lathe. Another factor would be more aggressive HF limiting to keep the cutter head's amps cool. Ken disclosed all this in an interview that came out sometime in the early 90s, after M&K had stopped producing LPs. The way I see it, coming from a TV/Movie audio background, their theory makes sense. I'm just speculating though. I've wanted to ask him the same question myself since I first read that.

Thing is, the spatial qualities are on the analog master tape. It's clear that this sense of space is in large part due to the miking technique and hall/studio. After all, many classical recordings have a great sense of space; not so for say many studio jazz LPs.

And people like Bob Katz also stated that some of the ambience was an effect of compression in the old days. (So why isn't there more ambience today with the increased use of compression? )

Though never really released except as a sampler, MandK did run analog tape backups at their sessions so could easily compare for themselves!

 

[JackD201]

I do heartily agree. Closed miked recordings are always dry when compared to say spaced omnis. They are meant to be as reverb is to be added later in the mix. If one were to look closely at the microphone set up for a drum kit, the overheads are what carry the air and define the kit's stage boundaries. Kreisel did say that the groove echo was additive. It has nothing to do with what was on the master rather what is introduced at cutting and again at playback. I'm again just guessing that they did arrive at their theory/hypothesis from comparing their D2Ds to their back ups. Besides it's been years and good as my memory might be I'm sure I'm at least a little bit off from what I read when it comes to the details. I'm confident I've got the gist of it though.

The compressors of old were typically optical compressors. Very different from the compressors used commonly today which have a pumping sound as opposed to a soft hashy overlay of compressors of old. These weren't very quiet devices and the hash was pretty much a part of their noise floor. So this also fits the admittedly bare theoretical framework.

What is curious to me is that the M&Ks I own like Fatha and For Duke are very quiet even with my ear to the speakers.

 

[amirm]

I am afraid it is Digital Amirm, just niche recorders insist on analog recordings.

I just did a quick search and at least some versions claim to have come from analog source: http://www.mofi.com/store/pc/viewPrd.asp?idproduct=87

"Remastered from the original analog tapes, Mobile Fidelity’s collectable version of Tigerlily mines every last nuance and delicate tone from this intimate gem..."

 

[Mike Lavigne]

Thing is, the spatial qualities are on the analog master tape. It's clear that this sense of space is in large part due to the miking technique and hall/studio. After all, many classical recordings have a great sense of space; not so for say many studio jazz LPs.

And people like Bob Katz also stated that some of the ambience was an effect of compression in the old days. (So why isn't there more ambience today with the increased use of compression? )

Though never really released except as a sampler, MandK did run analog tape backups at their sessions so could easily compare for themselves!

i'm a big fan of the M&K DTD Lps. i've used 'For Duke' as a reference disc for system setup for years.

a year ago Steve McCormick, who was an engineer on many of the M&K sessions, visited my room and we spoke at length about it as i was very interested. he sure felt strongly that those pressings were true to the sessions and very accurate to the real ambience.

this is not to say that the Lp mastering process never adds something; but every mastering process has the potential to add something. to me the added sense of space from Lps is primarily due to the much more benign affect to the fundamental analog signal that Lp mastering has compared to the math of digital mastering. i would add that the considerable variablity of cartridges, arms, tt's and phono stages allows the potential for considerable swings in the playback performance. some of these do add bloom and stage size. but they don't add ambient information where there wasn't. that's from the grooves.

it's easy when you compare a master dub to an Lp pressing to tell what is true and what is added. and most times the Lp simply has a bit less of the same stuff as the master tape.

added note; Steve said he was trying to find those backup tapes from those M&K sessions, he thought he knew where he could find them. he said that the tapes were even better than the DTD pressings when they sampled them back in the day.

 

[Steve williams]

Is this the same M&K that made those fantastic speakers and subs back in the 80's?

if so for inexpensive speakers, I thought they were terrific. I gather they are no longer in business?

 

[MylesBAstor]

I just did a quick search and at least some versions claim to have come from analog source: http://www.mofi.com/store/pc/viewPrd.asp?idproduct=87

"Remastered from the original analog tapes, Mobile Fidelity’s collectable version of Tigerlily mines every last nuance and delicate tone from this intimate gem..."

Problem is this Amir. A record may very well been mastered from an analog/tape source and still be digital. Take MFSL's Rickie Lee Jones' Pirates reissue. Pirates was originally recorded digitally (if I remember correctly on the early 3M 48 kHz [as opposed to 44 kHz] machine) and mixed down to 30 ips Dolby B tape. Given the fact that tape will "warm" things up, the original digital Pirates recording must have been unlistenable. That's in contrast to RLJ's first LP that was all analog with the original UK pressing of RLJ being vastly superior to the US.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

Problem is this Amir. A record may very well been mastered from an analog/tape source and still be digital. Take MFSL's Rickie Lee Jones' Pirates reissue. Pirates was originally recorded digitally (if I remember correctly on the early 3M 48 kHz [as opposed to 44 kHz] machine) and mixed down to 30 ips Dolby B tape. Given the fact that tape will "warm" things up, the original digital Pirates recording must have been unlistenable. That's in contrast to RLJ's first LP that was all analog with the original UK pressing of RLJ being vastly superior to the US.

same with Jennifer Warnes 'Famous Blue Raincoat'. it was recorded digitally and mixed to analog tape. the Lps say 'mixed from original master tape'. however it was not originally recorded in tape. the original Lp is better than the CD, but not dramatically so. even the much ballyhood 45 RPM 2-disc box set is not that much better than the CD.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

Is this the same M&K that made those fantastic speakers and subs back in the 80's?

if so for inexpensive speakers, I thought they were terrific. I gather they are no longer in business?

the same. it was originally a brick and mortar audio store, then they made the subs and speakers and then recorded both from that same building and later on location.