Magico Q7:" most impressive product in 23 years of TAS reviews" (R. Harley)

-- I would love to hear from Mike Lavigne.

Stereo, wow, nice first original post of this thread, great read. Quite impressive room too.

Cheers,
Bob

* Stereo's your real name?
 
The best live diffusive room in which I listened to speakers (not the speakers in the photo) is this room.
 

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I never was a fan of that room or any of the other rooms there
Over damped and artificial sounding to me.
 
I never was a fan of that room or any of the other rooms there
Over damped and artificial sounding to me.

I'm surprised that if the room is all diffusion how it sounds overdamped
 
Post removed it is for a different thread sorry :b
 
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Fernando, are those your (type of) speakers in that photo?
 
this is not really a diffusive room... You just have non parallel walls.... (which is already an improvement vs a normal square room)
A really diffusive room would use quadratic diffusers, or even more advanced one like the Wing diffusers developed by SMT. Only in this case you can make sure that spectral content of diffused sound is fully coherent with direct sound (which is key for a great sound, see explanation below). To my knowledge, SMT diffusers are the most effective one on the market. I imported them from Sweden, even if I live in Asia.
Also, by definition a room based on diffusion cannot be overdamped!
If your budget is limited, nothing beats a room with some basic absorption panels in the corner and first point of reflection. I had more than 30 realtraps in my previous rooms, they worked well. Great help to limit room resonance, but you need to be careful to use traps which are reflective above a certain frequency or the room will be too dead. Realtraps are a very good value for money. Tube Traps are also very good, but more (too) pricey.

Rooms based on diffusion principles give a much better image. You also get more transparency, and liveness. It is like if the full room disappears, provided that you use good quality diffusers. Nothing beats diffusion, but it needs to be used extensively to be effective, so it shouldn't be the solution of choice if your budget is limited.
For those who are interested to better understanding psychoacoustics and why some rooms are superior to others, I recommend to read "sound reproduction" by Floyd Toole. The Linkwitz 2007 AES Convention paper is also a very interesting read (http://www.linkwitzlab.com/AES'07/AES123-final2.pdf). My room philosophy is based on the precedence principles: when you delay enough reflections and maintain a spectral content coherent with direct sound, the reflections are not heard anymore by the brain: you hear source material with more clarity, and the halo of the reflection gives additional sense of spatiality.
Of course, this is possible only with very good diffusers.
For bass, I have 1 large band fiberglass absorber in the ceiling, which will be tuned based on how much absorption I need. But room nodes are mainly treated with my 27 Helmholtz resonators, at all junctions between ceiling and walls, walls and walls, floor and walls. They absorb on a narrow band, and are fine-tuned based on room measurements.
Before going for a SMT room, I have heard several dedicated rooms (including Mike Lavigne's Rives room and many other Rives room). Choice of room is the most important... even more than choice of speaker. So how come people spend 10 times more in their audiophile tweaks than in the design of their room?
 
this is not really a diffusive room... You just have non parallel walls.... (which is already an improvement vs a normal square room)
A really diffusive room would use quadratic diffusers, or even more advanced one like the Wing diffusers developed by SMT. Only in this case you can make sure that spectral content of diffused sound is fully coherent with direct sound (which is key for a great sound, see explanation below). To my knowledge, SMT diffusers are the most effective one on the market. I imported them from Sweden, even if I live in Asia.
Also, by definition a room based on diffusion cannot be overdamped!
If your budget is limited, nothing beats a room with some basic absorption panels in the corner and first point of reflection. I had more than 30 realtraps in my previous rooms, they worked well. Great help to limit room resonance, but you need to be careful to use traps which are reflective above a certain frequency or the room will be too dead. Realtraps are a very good value for money. Tube Traps are also very good, but more (too) pricey.

Rooms based on diffusion principles give a much better image. You also get more transparency, and liveness. It is like if the full room disappears, provided that you use good quality diffusers. Nothing beats diffusion, but it needs to be used extensively to be effective, so it shouldn't be the solution of choice if your budget is limited.
For those who are interested to better understanding psychoacoustics and why some rooms are superior to others, I recommend to read "sound reproduction" by Floyd Toole. The Linkwitz 2007 AES Convention paper is also a very interesting read (http://www.linkwitzlab.com/AES'07/AES123-final2.pdf). My room philosophy is based on the precedence principles: when you delay enough reflections and maintain a spectral content coherent with direct sound, the reflections are not heard anymore by the brain: you hear source material with more clarity, and the halo of the reflection gives additional sense of spatiality.
Of course, this is possible only with very good diffusers.
For bass, I have 1 large band fiberglass absorber in the ceiling, which will be tuned based on how much absorption I need. But room nodes are mainly treated with my 27 Helmholtz resonators, at all junctions between ceiling and walls, walls and walls, floor and walls. They absorb on a narrow band, and are fine-tuned based on room measurements.
Before going for a SMT room, I have heard several dedicated rooms (including Mike Lavigne's Rives room and many other Rives room). Choice of room is the most important... even more than choice of speaker. So how come people spend 10 times more in their audiophile tweaks than in the design of their room?

---- Best post so far today, thank you stereo.

I agree 100% with what you just said.
 
stereo

You're from France right. When did you have the occasion to hear MikeL's room

Not sure what made you believe I am from Netherlands or France. I live in Taiwan and travel to US and Europe every month for my job. I visited Mike in Seattle 5 years ago, just before ordering the MM3. Mike is a true gentleman and a true audiophile. His room was nice... but not as nice as 2 other SMT rooms I heard since. I heard from him that his room has improved since my visit, as he removed absorption material and added more diffusion.
 
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because right now I am in France. Tomorrow in Amsterdam. Wednesday in Taipei, Thursday in Shanghai, Friday in US....
As I said, I travel a lot for my job. Feel free to PM me if you want to know more (as administrator)
 
If anything, the computer simulated room in the first post is a fairly DEAD room because the walls reflect some sound, but due to the effect of the louvers, also absorb a great amount of sound.

The fact that it looks very ornate doesn't make it better.

The room I posted of Goodwins (correctly identified by ack) is a live room with very good diffusion and very good dimensional proportions.


I'm curious to know exactly WHAT the Helmholtz resonators do for the sound in the room and exactly HOW they affect the sound.

What are the dimensions of the Helmholtz resonators you are using.
 
If anything, the computer simulated room in the first post is a fairly DEAD room because the walls reflect some sound, but due to the effect of the louvers, also absorb a great amount of sound.

The fact that it looks very ornate doesn't make it better.

The room I posted of Goodwins (correctly identified by ack) is a live room with very good diffusion and very good dimensional proportions.


I'm curious to know HOW the Helmholtz resonators do anything for the sound.

- what you describe as a louvers is a diffuser. It reflect more than 80% of sound, but diffused.
- the design has nothing to do about being ornate or not. It is optimized for efficiency. The wings diffusion pattern is superior to a classic quadratic diffuser.
- Goodwins room doesn't have any diffusion. Zero. It avoids parallel walls, that's it. It doesn't mean it cannot be a great sounding room. Unfortunately with room design, part is science, part is luck.
- I don't want to derail this thread.... but the the whole topic of Golden ratio for rooms dimension would justify a long explanation on why it is of little help on room design... as a start, the Golden ratios are calculated for a sound source positioned in a CORNER of a room. Do you put your speakers in the corner?
-Helmholtz resonators address room resonance on a narrow frequency band: see it like an absorber, which a narrow frequency response that you can tune. That means if you tune them on room nodes, you can selectively flatten the frequency response of the room. Only problem is you need quite a lot of them to work well. But they have the advantage to go much lower in frequency than soft absorbers like fiberglass.

You should read the book from Toole, and everything will be clearer to you. I did read a lot of books on acoustics, this is the best by far.
 

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