Magnepans vs. Electrostatics. What is the better technology? What do you prefer?

[audioarcher]

At least in my country, where power is not stable nor clean, electrostats' mortality rate is high. Most friends whom I know possessed Quad 63s and Martin Logans have had breakdowns, some fixed, some eternally doomed. That is really the main reason why I still shy away from stats. I must say hearing Quads and MLs, (lately the Summit) they possess a liquidity and presence that I don't hear in my Maggie. They push the proverbial they-are-in-the room bit to the max, imo. And they are fine sounding, with utter lack of grain. The Summits can be pushed hard, and play loud and even fill a medium to big room, and they stay fine, unlike my Maggies, they can sound a bit grainy when played loud, at least my model. One thing about Maggie that I have discovered only lately, when they are driven by powerful amps, like a Hegel H4 which a friend brought over last month, they become another animal. It's like water falling out of Niagara falls. Music comes out with so much ease, and bass punch and power go a few notches more. 600+ watts into 4 ohms is nothing to sneeze about. The Summits sound lovely but until I hear better stories with their behavior vis-a-via our power line quality, I'm putting them on hold.

I'm guessing it has more to do with humidity than power quality. Or maybe a combo of the two? Most electrostats do not do well in a highly humid environment. The Philippines are very humid from what I understand. Roger Sanders of Sanders Sound says his stats can be used in humid climates. You may want to look into them if you want to use electrostats there.

 

[audioarcher]

I prefer stats, but I do like the Maggies a lot.

And if you ask the engineers, most seem to think that stats are better technologically, at least in the midrange. Yet most audiophiles have more reverance for Maggies. And if you look at the reference systems of reviewers, there seem to be more Maggies than electrostats.

Please share your thoughts and preferences.

From the setups I've heard so far I prefer electrostats. I own Innersound Kaya's. I've had them for six years and counting. They keep getting better as I refine my system. That said I have not heard Maggie's or other pure ribbon speakers in ideal conditions yet. I've heard Maggies at dealers a few times and was not that impressed. Would like to hear them in a good room with sufficient power and a top notch source some day. Also heard the Analysis Plus ribbons at RMAF a couple of times. They were pretty good but I'm sure they could sound better under better circumstances.

 

[DonH50]

Maggies are not pure ribbons; nor are the Analysis models best I can tell.

I have always felt ESLs were better within their frequency and dynamic range limits, just felt the overall performance balance of Maggies was better.

I still want to get up and visit Roger to hear his new models, just too afraid since I can't afford to walk out with a pair.

 

[FrantzM]

My initiation into the joys of panels was back in the early 80s with Quads (57 and 63) and Accoustats.

By the 90s a mate who had these strange and wondrous shiny shimmery Apogees had me at the words Caliper and Duetta signature. I realised my world was a ribbon one and not stat.

I've also recently heard the Audio Analysis Orion's and Epsilons (the middle ones in the range) and was immediately reminded of the sound of the Apogees... These were powered by big Ypsilon SET monos and sounded grainless and beautiful as they should with over $160k of electronics if not just a shade on the dark side.

In between I've heard quite a few Martin Logans and the more recent Quads as well as all the current Magnepans.

All of these speakers spoke with some similarity in terms of characteristic panel virtues and typical panel constraint. But for all their foibles the only speaker I would choose out of all of them now to live with long term is the one I now own... Magnepan 20.7s. Not because they are without constraints but because they also have for me the greatest potential. In the latest TAS review the writer said there was no better speaker under $80k. I find this kind of statement in some ways a bit absurd as these are all our just about differences in personal preferences, but at the same time to be completely fair to the Magnepan 20.7 it is a magical achievement in continuos improvement. With panels ultimately they have to be big to offset their Achilles heel... Being full range and energizing a room is a challenge for panels until they get big. The 20.7 is big enough to have very real and very fast bass if implemented properly and it is utterly coherent. If you have an ounce of grain with Maggie's its in the gear you are partnering with them.

You can't give Maggie's too much quality nor too much love and they'll always give you it all back. I understand why some prefer Quads, that others never forget their Apogees and why some people find truth in their Soundlabs and MLs... and for some of us Magnepan is the most real panel of all. There is no one best panel as long as there is such diversity in what people value in sound but one thing is for sure... if you love panels its hard to listen to anything much else.

Very interesting post, I have heard the 20.7 too briefly to form a good opinion but must say that Magnepan have spoiled in a strange ways. I will like a given speaker and have to mentally cpmpare with what they offer and regularly at amuch cheaper price. e,g 3.7 which will make put to shame several speakers costing up to 15~20 times its price ..

Will think very hard and audition the 20.7 soon.. Will report here...

 

[audioarcher]

Maggies are not pure ribbons; nor are the Analysis models best I can tell.

I have always felt ESLs were better within their frequency and dynamic range limits, just felt the overall performance balance of Maggies was better.

I still want to get up and visit Roger to hear his new models, just too afraid since I can't afford to walk out with a pair.

I knew the Maggies were not pure ribbons. I should have worded my post better. As for visiting Roger, that could be costly.

 

[microstrip]

IMHO it is not easy to have a definitive opinion or write a review of an electrostatic speaker - most of the time we are just indirectly reporting on the system driving them. I have owned both Quad models, Audiostatic and several Soundlabs. All of them were chameleon like, completely changing the type of sound. A clear example was using the ESL63 with the Cello Duet, Futherman's or the Audio Research VT150's - we could say it was a different speaker.

Box speakers or Magneplanar's have more personality.

 

[the sound of Tao]

Hi Bonzo,

The Audio Analysis models that I heard last year were definitely in the middle of the range, didn't get a chance to hear their full range models, I had the Orion mixed up with the Omega. When I heard them I figured I was hearing the amps as much as I was hearing the speaker which is a trait of full range ribbons I reckon, the amp pairing seems critical.

With Maggie's I really like the current .7 series in general but as good as the 3.7s are its the 20.7s that get across the line into properly satisfying and realistic full range territory without the need for a sub (I've tried them with the Wilson Benesch Torus sub) but putting the Stillpoint Ultra 5s under everything in the system has optimised the bass to the point where it is visceral and fast throughout the range.

On amps for Maggies - the Magtech is at it's best here on the 20.7s especially since putting Shunyata Anacondas with Cyclops in. Roger's regulated power supply (much like as in the Krell of old) seems to give them what seems like limitless and fluid power. Never heard of any Spectral pairing with panels and am unsure how that would sound. I would love to hear the momentum Dags tho for sure and also I'd reckon the CJ GAT Art combo would be a great option to have here as well.

 

[Big Dog RJ]

Yes sir, that's where I'm heading. It will be one of the cj art amps with my Quads.
I do understand very clearly about the dynamic aspects of ribbons vs stats. As I mentioned before, I owned and lived with both (the Apogee Diva was the best by far). Agreed the mg20 series is fantastic but to get them going you need huge monoblocks, and that is one road I will not go down ever again, mainly due to life learning experiences....

Having said that, listening for endless hours, you can truly enjoy a proper scale of dynamics, an accurate depth of soundstage, and a glorious midrange that I've not heard on any other panel type to date, and all of this is possible with just 60 watts of cj power.

So there you have it!

Hey Bonzo, looks like the AA chaps are located close to where I live, I'll just arrange for a demo and drop in this weekend for what it's worth. I might actually learn something!
Cheers to all, and keep enjoying your panels, RJ

 

[jadis]

I'm guessing it has more to do with humidity than power quality. Or maybe a combo of the two? Most electrostats do not do well in a highly humid environment. The Philippines are very humid from what I understand. Roger Sanders of Sanders Sound says his stats can be used in humid climates. You may want to look into them if you want to use electrostats there.

Could be humidity too. I've heard corrosion issues the Quads and it could be humidity. Interesting fact about the Sanders.

 

[bonzo75]

Yes sir, that's where I'm heading. It will be one of the cj art amps with my Quads.
I do understand very clearly about the dynamic aspects of ribbons vs stats. As I mentioned before, I owned and lived with both (the Apogee Diva was the best by far). Agreed the mg20 series is fantastic but to get them going you need huge monoblocks, and that is one road I will not go down ever again, mainly due to life learning experiences....

Having said that, listening for endless hours, you can truly enjoy a proper scale of dynamics, an accurate depth of soundstage, and a glorious midrange that I've not heard on any other panel type to date, and all of this is possible with just 60 watts of cj power.

So there you have it!

Hey Bonzo, looks like the AA chaps are located close to where I live, I'll just arrange for a demo and drop in this weekend for what it's worth. I might actually learn something!
Cheers to all, and keep enjoying your panels, RJ

In one of your previous posts you mentioned you studied in Chicago. Was that at Uchicago?

When you are there, ask them if they have done any mods. Like I said, the UK and US distributor mod the crossovers to better the bass.

 

[microstrip]

(...) Roger Sanders of Sanders Sound says his stats can be used in humid climates. You may want to look into them if you want to use electrostats there.

Roger West makes similar claims for his current membrane technology. Quoted from the SoundLab site:

Are Our Speakers Affected by Humidity?

Because of the non-hygroscopic nature of the materials used in our speakers, humidity has no measurable effect on speaker performance. We have had speakers in the Far-East for years that are still performing well.

 

[Big Dog RJ]

In one of your previous posts you mentioned you studied in Chicago. Was that at Uchicago?

When you are there, ask them if they have done any mods. Like I said, the UK and US distributor mod the crossovers to better the bass.

Hey mate, yes good old Naperville high end audio club at the time, no more in existence. lived on campus, Lewis Uni at Romeoville, completed my undergrad in 98. Great little campus started by the delesalle bros somewhere in the jurassic era! Why do you ask?

Don't know if the Australian distributor will mod the crossovers, why mod the crossovers in the first place? Aren't they good enough as per the original from the AA chaps?
RJ

 

[bonzo75]

Hey mate, yes good old Naperville high end audio club at the time, no more in existence. lived on campus, Lewis Uni at Romeoville, completed my undergrad in 98. Great little campus started by the delesalle bros somewhere in the jurassic era! Why do you ask?

Don't know if the Australian distributor will mod the crossovers, why mod the crossovers in the first place? Aren't they good enough as per the original from the AA chaps?
RJ

Well no connection then, I was at U of C on the other side of town. As for the crossovers, no idea. Both distributors I think feel it necessary to mod the crossovers for a leap in bass. Was just telling you that so then when you listen, while you will get most of the tonality, if there is any hole in bass, it can be changed by modding the crossover. I don't know how they sound without it, but should be good.

 

[Big Dog RJ]

Could be humidity too. I've heard corrosion issues the Quads and it could be humidity. Interesting fact about the Sanders.

Yes that's absolutely right. Back in my native home country when I had Quads and maggies, they really didn't last too long due to very high humidity levels. In colombo we're looking at around 85 to 90% humidity, that's almost water gentleman! You can literally sweat buckets...
Then again no veener coated dynamic type lasted either. The only speakers that I owned and did last for quite awhile were infinity ren90, and the mg3.5 mainly due to solid frames and not veneers. However, the ribbon elements gave way sooner than expected.

The veneers would just peel off like a snake shedding its skin. I remember one of my pairs of paradigms studio 100's went warp, the outer covers /sides looked like goggle-eyed goldfish at one point, not a pretty site!

The newer ribbons and othet stats are much stronger but I sincerely don't think any speakers can survive our tropical weather for the long term. There are bound to be problems within a few years even though designers will claim that their speakers are impervious to tropics. They don't realize just how tropical it is. ..
RJ

 

[DonH50]

Note for ESLs high humidity can cause not only corrosion issues but also arcing due to the reduced "air" resistance and high voltages involved. Arcing (sparks) can break down insulation, making it easier to arc again, a death spiral... Arcing also puts a severe load on the power supply.

Air conditioning and/or dehumidifiers should help? We used to hit humidity like that in the late summer in MO (USA) and I had a few ESLs snap, buzz, and generally proclaim their unhappiness at such an environment...

 

[zztop7]

Get It In Writing

Roger West makes similar claims for his current membrane technology. Quoted from the SoundLab site:

Are Our Speakers Affected by Humidity?

Because of the non-hygroscopic nature of the materials used in our speakers, humidity has no measurable effect on speaker performance. We have had speakers in the Far-East for years that are still performing well.

Get It In Writing from your local distributor. This SoundLab quote is typical of what almost ALL manufacturers do [Soundlabs might be great - not picking on them].
"humidity has no measurable effect on speaker performance" - OK, but what about speaker longevity with arcing, etc.?
"We have had speakers in the Far-East for years that are still performing well" - OK, but under what conditions? heavy air conditioning with additional de-humidification?

Again, Get It In Writing from your local distributor - on all equipment under adverse conditions. If they do not want to give it to you in writing in detail to your satisfaction??? - your $$$ & the devil is in the details [contracts, contracts, contracts].
zz.

 

[bonzo75]

Hi guys, what do you think about this - The Sanders speakers have a very narrow sweet spot. Do you think the sweet spot will widen in Multichannel?

 

[bonzo75]

Hey mate, yes good old Naperville high end audio club at the time, no more in existence. lived on campus, Lewis Uni at Romeoville, completed my undergrad in 98. Great little campus started by the delesalle bros somewhere in the jurassic era! Why do you ask?

Don't know if the Australian distributor will mod the crossovers, why mod the crossovers in the first place? Aren't they good enough as per the original from the AA chaps?
RJ

This is the only guy I know who has owned both Soundlabs and Analysis. Read his post 7 in the link. Post 6 is also relevant that he no longer needs subs with the Analysis after the mods

http://www.audionervosa.com/index.ph...0;sa=showPosts

 

[bonzo75]

This is from Enjoy the music review

"The Omegas had needed about 100 hours of playing time to reach 90 percent of their full sonic capability, and perhaps another 50 hours for complete break-in. The Amphitryons were a different story. Through about the first 250 hours, I sometimes found myself wondering if the bass panels might be defective; there seemed to be less, not more bass weight than I had heard from the Omegas. But finally, after what I estimate was about 400+ hours, the big guys opened up, and I knew I had made the right call. Now my room morphed instantly into a well-fleshed-out semblance of the opera house, concert hall, chamber venue, rock arena or intimate club captured on the recordings. Fine as the Omegas had been, in this listening room the Amphitryons created even more multidimensional magic. Here at last is the greatest two-channel music-listening experience I have ever had. And not just spatially — this is also the most tonally dead-accurate musical reproduction I have ever experienced.

Don't think that large-scale music and big performing spaces are the whole story. Smaller-scaled, more intimate music is rendered flawlessly as well. I was surprised time and again by how the Amphitryons captured the subtlety of small, quiet performance, whether vocal or instrumental. I recall thinking once that these speakers should be called something like "Mimeticas" — playing on the Greek term mimesis: representation of reality.

So, the perfect speaker? After years of reviewer conditioning, I know to say "No — no equipment is perfect." But there is a part of me that wants to scream "hell yes!" Of course they are not literally perfect, but they come closer to it than any speakers this guy has ever encountered — even those six-figure audio fantasies that populate our hobby these days. So, to paraphrase something I said a few months ago, I'm keeping the Amphitryons, and I expect to be listening to them for years to come. The loudspeaker that can make me change my mind has not, I think, been invented yet."

http://www.enjoythemusic.com/superioraudio/equipment/1006/midmonth/analysis_audio_amphitryon.htm

 

[audioarcher]

Hi guys, what do you think about this - The Sanders speakers have a very narrow sweet spot. Do you think the sweet spot will widen in Multichannel?

No. The highs roll off quickly if the speakers are not pointed directly at you. Adding more channels does not change that. They are not a good choice for a multiple chair home theater/music systems. If you want to hear everything with as much clarity as possible in the sweet spot they are an excellent choice.