Make Hunting a Sport

[NorthStar]

"Is hunting fair?
Despite hunters' common claim of adhering to a “fair chase” code, there is no such thing. With an arsenal of rifles, shotguns, muzzleloaders, handguns, bows and arrows, hunters kill more than 200 million animals yearly – and likely crippling, orphaning, and harassing millions more."
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? https://www.idausa.org/campaign/wild-animals-and-habitats/hunting/

• https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/earth-talks-hunting/
• https://www.peta.org/issues/wildlife/wildlife-factsheets/sport-hunting-cruel-unnecessary/
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"How does deer hunting affect the environment?
Hunting affects the biosphere, which is where the living organisms exist, it affects the biosphere because wildlife is directly related to the biosphere and hunting disrupts natural order. ... It directly affects the natural environment in that it throws off natural predation and population growth of the wildlife."

@ this time of the year, almost every day deers come on my lawn to have a peaceful time, and same with the rabbits; we observe each other...they eat grass I eat cereals in the morning. I'm always outside, so I see many birds species too, and butterflies and dragonflies. Plus much more...bald eagles, geese, ducks, swans, sea lions, killer whales and squirrels. Oh, wood pickers, partridges, faisans, awls, hawks and even blue birds. ...And many many more because I live near a bird sanctuary. I have a pair of binoculars and also a wildlife observation scope.

If a dog is chasing a deer, I chase a dog. If a cat is chasing a baby rabbit I chase a cat. If a cat is chasing a rat or a mouse, I let them be.
If a bird hits my window, I'll provide care till resurrection. I don't know where it's coming from, most likely from a tree or the sky.
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• [video]https://www.facebook.com/241153876217509/videos/448703275462567/[/video]

 

[jazdoc]

From Matthew Scully's "Dominion"

Kindness to animals, as columnist Jeffrey Hart writes, arises from "the imperative duty as rooted in the concept of the fully human. Does it not diminish the human to abuse an animal?" Who wants to see in the mirror the man who tortured an animal?" Most of us know just what he means. And for us that is usually enough -- the mirror test, simple decency, a functioning conscience...

In the case of Smithfield [corporate meat processing], then, and the entire way of life it stands for, the question is simple and blunt: Looking into that mirror, what do you see? Where is the charity in it, where is the humanity? How does it square with the kind of society you wish to live in and the kind of person you hope to be? If you are a religious person, where in that scene is the God who loves these creature and asks us to do the same?

For my part, even if it were demonstrated to me that these poor beasts have no rights at all while I have every right to subject them to such privation and torment, and to delegate that authority to the gentlemen of Smithfield, it is a right I do not want, a power I gladly surrender. That is the whole idea of mercy, after all, that it is entirely discretionary, entirely underserved. "It droppeth as the gentle rain from Heaven." There is no such thing as a right to mercy, not for the animals and not even for us.

 

[PeterA]

Ack
I totally agree with you. When this site was launched there was a thought of starting a subforum on guns and ammunition. This was immediately vetoed by the admin staff for the very reasons that you suggest here

I'm afraid for the sake of the integrity of this forum we declared politics religion and fire arms as topics that will not be discussed here. This was well before Ron joined WBF so I know he wasnt aware of this.


I am just back from a 2 week 15,000 mile trip so I'd like to wish everyone a happy and safe 4th of July and I am respectfully going to close this thread.

I have a rule at my dinner parties. I tell guests that no topic of discussion is off limits. Restricting speech to what is politically correct would lead to boring dinner parties.

Running a public forum is different. I'm curious to see how this discussion will develop and how Steve and the admin team will respond.

 

[FrantzM]

From Matthew Scully's "Dominion"

SPORT
noun
1.
an activity involving physical exertion and skill in which an individual or team competes against another or others for entertainment.


AS usual a complex issue, that of animal rights. When we hunt for nourishment it is easy acceptable... One can even derive some entertainment from the activity of providing nourishment... Hunting or fishing for pleasure is killing for entertainment purposes...I have some difficulties to see it as a "sport". Since we are literally at the top of the food chain, we can grant ourselves right of Life and death over other animals. Let's hope we never become preys in our lifetimes.. then our perspective about "sport" would be quite different.

FWIW I don't hunt or fish.

 

[treitz3]

Here's my thoughts to the actual topic of this thread.

When I have gone deer hunting, I see a plethora of Turkey that's out of season. Sometimes upward of 30 at a time, walking within 15' of me all nonchalant like. Now on the flip side, when I go Turkey hunting, I see a plethora of deer that's out of season. Same thing.....it's like they are planning to aggravate me and I hear them laugh (sarcasm) as they strut on by me knowing full well I can't do anything. Idgit (me).

With that said, I stopped hunting years ago. Now I shoot soup cans in the backyard with my 8 year old son. At least that way, I have a target to shoot at and I can still teach him some safety aspects and how to shoot something.

I can respect all different lines of reasoning when it comes to hunting for sport as I have met many different types of folks from all backgrounds in my travels. I feel that no one is wrong, they just have different viewpoints. Some stronger than others obviously.

Tom

 

[marty]

Really thoughtful, well written OP Ron. (And here we thought you were just another pretty face! )
I was a target shooter in high school (came in 3rd in NY State finals) as I considered it a very Zen sport. Still do. Shooting animals for sport? Not so much....

 

[zztop7]

HUGE rats = deer

Deer are HUGE rats. I used to like deer; then they moved onto my property. The deer have cost me at least $50,000.00 due to damge and preventive measures taken.
LUCKY deer that I do not hunt & butcher.

zz.

 

[treitz3]

I can agree to that zz. They ate my entire garden last year. All I got out of it was hot peppers and rosemary...

Grrr.

Tom

 

[rockitman]

Too many Deer means more frequent collisions with vehicles. I have been blessed being wacked by a dumb Deer.

 

[Ron Resnick]

. . . Since we are literally at the top of the food chain, we can grant ourselves right of Life and death over other animals. Let's hope we never become preys in our lifetimes.. then our perspective about "sport" would be quite different.

. . .

This lines up with my outer space alien example in the opening post. Difficult though it may be to imagine try to think about your family members being the prey of some deliberate, calculating predator shooting for fun and challenge. If one believes humans should be able to hunt non-human animals for fun and challenge, then what is your analytically principled appeal to aliens who wish to hunt your family members for fun and challenge?



And thank you, Marty!

 

[853guy]

This lines up with my outer space alien example in the opening post. Difficult though it may be to imagine try to think about your family members being the prey of some deliberate, calculating predator shooting for fun and challenge. If one believes humans should be able to hunt non-human animals for fun and challenge, then what is your analytically principled appeal to aliens who wish to hunt your family members for fun and challenge?



And thank you, Marty!

Hi Ron,

I greatly appreciate your post and think you raise some very interesting points.

My problem with the alien argument (1), while not only being an argument from a non-testable hypothesis, is that it fails to adequately define moral equivalency relative to socio-cultural propagation of species.

The "analytically principled" appeal for me in the case where an alien species decided to hunt the human species for “sport”, would be whether the alien species in question considered our species sufficiently socio-culturally evolved beyond the lower two of Maslow’s hierachy of needs (2), to be considered similar in terms of moral equivalency.

As human beings, we not only show higher levels of needs consistently across ethnicities, age and gender, but have two unique attributes that no other non-human species has displayed: A) the development and propagation of complex and sophisticated forms of expression related to the highest level of human need (self-actualisation) manifest in, for instance, philosophy, art and quantum theory; and B) care for non-same species.

A) is of course, fairly obvious, as evidenced by the fact that a few of us are debating this in the first place. Fundamentally, this is a phiolsophical discussion. B) however, is perhaps under-appreciated. As far as I’m aware, most hunting is of animals that do not show consistent behaviours beyond self-preservation and preservation of same species (the issues of self-awareness, sentience and reason appear to be absent in populations of deer, rabbits and boars, for instance).

And yet despite the fact that human beings hunt non-same species for sport, human beings also actively preserve, protect, nurture and develop relationships with non-same species animals in a way no other non-human species on Earth exhibits in a consistent manner (3).

Back to my question for the aliens: Would they consider our complex and sophisticated forms of self-expression as evidenced in our philosophy, art and quantum theory, and care of non-same species animals sufficient for moral equivalency for them not to hunt us? In other words, would they recognise enough similarity between our two species to consider us worthy of not hunting?

Best,

853guy


(1) Given that human and non-human species are part of the same eco-system, an alien species is likely not only to be a threat to human beings, but all life on Earth.

(2) In ascending order: Physiological, Safety, Love/Belonging, Esteem, Self-Actualisation.

(3) With some cultures/religions placing animals into the realm of the sacred as deities and superior to human beings.

 

[Ron Resnick]

853guy, thank you for raising these extremely thoughtful and interesting points!

I agree with your concluding question. Just as humans have decided that non-human animals do not deserve to have direct moral status, I agree with you that aliens likely would conduct a similar analysis.

I think you have answered my alien question very comprehensively. Thank you.

 

[Joe Whip]

I will have to ask them the next time I am abducted!

 

[the sound of Tao]

Thank you Ron for your very thoughtful and up front essay to initiate the thread. Really meaningful and engaging topic and a great bit of writing to boot. Your position on this is reflective of some very refined and essentially good values.

Also the considered varying responses on what could have been a highly emotively charged topic full of noise also says a lot of very good things about the quality of our forum and also for the thread respondents. Great stuff.

Interspecies equity is absolutely just as important as intergenerational equity in our cultural evolution but also ultimately in our capacity for our survival and the ultimate quality of existence. We are as dependent on species diversity for our survival beyond even just seeing and valuing animals as basic resources.

But beyond any of these notions the very idea that we should aim to cause unnecessary suffering or harm for a sport or indeed for any reason could simply just be beyond any justification.

 

[NorthStar]

On the fourth of July many celebrate outside, with barbecues, baseball games and fireworks.
They were playing live music in town today, and making hotdogs and hamburgers.
Every Tuesday @ the pub they have chicken wings.
@ Christmas we have turkeys, hams, tourtieres with pheasants, deer and or moose/beaver.
Deers love to eat our plants, our flowers, our gardens, we (some of us) build high deer fences.
In orchards, birds eat cherries and apples, insects eat fruits, bears love apples. We have organic fruits and pesticide fruits.
We are what we eat? ...Milk, cheese, eggs, ...
In Japan they are big on sushi, and octopus, and whales.
...Crab, trout, lobster, carp, salmon, tuna, ...

If killing a bull in an arena is a sport for entertaining the public, what does that tell us about our civilisation? Romans? Julius? Pilate?

Playing golf is a sport for entertainment; the outside, beautiful designed golf courses around nice greens, trees, fairways, lakes, cascades, rocks, ...
You hit the ball, less possible times to win.

Playing hunting animals is not a sport for entertainment, you hit an animal, a living animal, not a golf ball. This is no game, this is unbalanced human system.

I agree with Ron's short essay.

 

[Recordsguy]

I think that it's very sad that as a so-called [civilized]society we still feel the urge to shoot at something-or someone[animals]moving!!

 

[DaveyF]

I think that it's very sad that as a so-called [civilized]society we still feel the urge to shoot at something-or someone[animals]moving!!

+1000


BTW, what is the continuing point of this thread???