Martin-Logan Owners

roberto

Well-Known Member

Gregadd

WBF Founding Member
Apr 20, 2010
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Thanks Roberto.
Is this not akin to telling me a picture must be pretty because of the camera is great.
 

roberto

Well-Known Member
You are doing the same thing. I do believe that you had enough. Liking digital is your choice. Me? I'm into digital hi-end world since only 2 or three years ago. Since the beginning of digital, my reaction was about yours. My ears was telling me that something was missing and not right. Now are telling me a different history. I can live with both worlds, analogue and digital with excellent results. You can sense the feeling of the musician(s) playing and also there is a non resonant, more precise musical notes and voices.

The electronic engineers on the digital world, design new softwares to handle the digital source, and are many different paths to convert to analogue the digital files. They did their homework and the research continues. Analogue paths are almost non. A needle that resonates with the plastic (vinyl) and goes to a moving coils or moving magnet, where only can get at 1KHz a channel separation not over 35 dB, and where the tracking groves are not read because of the shape of the needle, and also you can not play the LP twice the same day, due to the high temperature, where the groves are melted, a reason why the needle must be made of the most hard material found on Mother Earth, if you use another material, it will be destroyed due to this high temperature...and so on...is what made to me to ended into the digital world. I can play all the music that I want without any quality loss, and the quality sound on these days, is very good.

I am not saying that the digital world is perfect. It has its flaws. I assure you that these flaws are less now. I remember finding myself tapping with my foot when I was listening analogue. Now I am doing the same thing with digital. I just wanted to share my findings with results. As I said before, specs are meaning less, what you should seek is what your ears are telling to you. And my ears now are telling: I like digital now. There are a lot of info that you never though it was there...

Happy listening.
 

Gregadd

WBF Founding Member
Apr 20, 2010
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Metro DC
I will let you have the last word.
 

roberto

Well-Known Member

roberto

Well-Known Member
I misspell your name...and the browser does not let me to correct my typo...Your name is Gregadd, please excuse!
 

Gregadd

WBF Founding Member
Apr 20, 2010
6,953
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Metro DC
My name is Greg. Gregadd is my screen name

Correcting misspelling is my thing.
To edit your post at the bottom you will see the word Report next to it you will see... with an an arrow pointing downward
Click on it and then press edit. When you finish editing your post, press SAVE.
enjoy
 

Gregadd

WBF Founding Member
Apr 20, 2010
6,953
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Metro DC
PS. Those are instructions for a smartphone. On your laptop you should just see the word edit. There is a time limit on the opportunity to edit.
 

roberto

Well-Known Member
Greg, you just made my day. I am not too clever with computers. Thank you so much!

Merry Xmas and Happy New Year 2020!

Happy listening!
 

kach22i

WBF Founding Member
Apr 21, 2010
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Ann Arbor, Michigan
www.kachadoorian.com
......... and also you can not play the LP twice the same day, due to the high temperature, where the groves are melted, a reason why the needle must be made of the most hard material found on Mother Earth, if you use another material, it will be destroyed due to this high temperature...and so on...
Now I feel stupid as I've never read such advice before.

What I have read, and it might be wrong or I might be remembering it wrong:

1. The vinyl actually goes into a liquid state for a micro second from the needle friction and re-hardenes almost instantly as the needle passes through.

2. Vinyl is soft and has a low melting temperature.

3. Needles are hard and resist temperature.

4. Clean your records, or else bits of dust can get fused into the groove walls during the flash melting. This will not just wash out later, not even with a record cleaner, fluid and vacuum.

5. This is why a drapery steam cleaner works so well, it loosens the embed dust not only with liquid but with heat.

6. RE: you can not play the LP twice the same day...................all I can say is oh shat, but that's what vinyl makes you want to do, play the same track more than once. Digital does NOT really do that for me, but to be fair I have not heard Roberto's system.

Anyone reading this please feel free to expand, edit and or correct as required. The numbering system should help.
 

Gregadd

WBF Founding Member
Apr 20, 2010
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Metro DC
It has also been argued that a microline stylus properly aligned tracking at a reasonable vtf on a properly clean record does negligible le damage.
 

roberto

Well-Known Member
Hola Greg and Kach22i,

I learned this long time ago. My LPs are from 70s to end of 90s mostly...and I had to sell my system due to my mom´s illness. Finally she passed, and I do not regret to helped her. Because my background is with classical music, most of my LPs are classical. Of course I have jazz. I do love jazz too.

To keep my LPs in good shape, I had the Nitty Gritty LP cleaner but it broke. Then I bought the VPI model 1.5. I also got a cleaning formula that I am going to share it with you: 75% bi-distillate water, 20% Isopropyl alcohol, 4% soft detergent and 1% Agepon wetting agent. This fluid kept my LPs like new.

One of the vinyl physical properties is to recover it's form (shape). The temperature of the tip with the friction of the LP grove, makes it to be at the white color, not red color. White temperature color is higher than red. This temperature is melting the groves, and when the groves get cold again, they get the original shape. If you play twice the song the same day, the melting is more drastic and it will not get the same shape. (Please excuse my bad explanation) So, that's why we have the song wear. If you let the LP 24 hours to rest, and play it only once, the vinyl gets the original shape.

Avoid fingerprints at the groves, and avoid to let the LP out of the sleeve while it is not playing. Keep always the LP into the sleeve.
Treat the LPs like a pet. If you treat them nice, the result is obvious for good. If you do not do that, it is obvious too the problem.
Clean the needle tip with this fluid. Have a camel hair brush, and two drops is enough for the job. Use a magnifying glass to make sure you remove all the needle tip dirt. Sometimes we think it is clean, and that's the reason of miss tracking.
As kach22i said, vinyl melts a very low temperature. The needle comes with a very high temperature, and it is melting the vinyl. The physical properties of the vinyl is to get ALMOST the original shape, but each time that we play de record, we have a wear problem. If you let 24 hours resting, the damage is only less than .5%. If we play the song twice, the damage is 5%. That's a 100 time more damage. So, the advice is, listen the song only once a day, and have several LPs around where you can play another good songs, and let them rest 24 hours to keep them OK.

I do know that perhaps you knew all this, but I think it is good to do a revision...

Happy listening!
 
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kach22i

WBF Founding Member
Apr 21, 2010
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I have to imagine that someone has experimented with a freezer or some other cooling method (liquid nitrogen - yikes) in order to cheat the thermal dynamic proprieties of vinyl and LP playback.

I mean why 24 hours if the heat was only for a micro second and the vinyl has more than mass enough to absorb all the heat energy?

Confess, do you keep your favorite LP in the vegetable crisper of your refrigerator?

......... 75% bi-distillate water, 20% Isopropyl alcohol, 4% soft detergent and 1% Agepon wetting agent. This fluid kept my LPs like new...............

Clean the needle tip with this fluid. Have a camel hair brush, and two drops is enough for the job. Use a magnifying glass to make sure you remove all the needle tip dirt. Sometimes we think it is clean, and that's the reason of miss tracking.
I left a plastic jug of record cleaner that I bought from Audio Advisor years ago on a shelf with my records. I had not played LP's or my stereo for years before we moved four months ago and the gallon jug was empty, a small amount of water damage to the shelf, not a lot though. The jug had been nearly full seven years before that.

So my question is, what kind of container (glass?) should the cleaning fluid be kept in, and how long is it good for?

Also, my Last - Stylus Cleaner brush was left out to dry, and collected more dust than it could possible remove from a needle. How does one allow the brush to air out and yet not collect dust?

You use the camel hair brush dry, no fluids, correct?
 
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roberto

Well-Known Member
You use the camel hair brush dry, no fluids, correct?
I put only two or three drops of my fluid to the tip of the brush, and I do the cleaning tip process.

So my question is, what kind of container (glass?) should the cleaning fluid be kept in, and how long is it good for?
I use the plastic one gallon container that I bought to Nitty Gritty long time ago. I do not see a special plastic or special container. Use the one that you dispose when it is empty with the cleaning fluid for the kitchen or detergent.

I think that the plastic bottle that you have, perhaps the cap was not secured very tight. It is wise to do a thighteen cap to keep the fluid easy. Also, you can get an amber colour glass bottle for better results.

For the brush, clean it at the bathroom sink and use mild detergent. Apply two or three drops to the hair, and with your fingertips massage it for release the dirt. With warm water, clean the hair. It will be as new.

Waiting 24 hours assure you that the LP is cold. If you use it before that time, you will experiment the distortion of an open grove. You can not fix it, until you buy another same LP and replace it.

I really wish that we were closer, so you can come and play with my goods and experiment all what I have done to keep my LPs singing without any annoying surface noises. Of course I get clicks and pops and a dirt needle. Vinyl acts like a magnet for dust.
 

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roberto

Well-Known Member
The picture above is part of my LPs collection. at that pic, I think I have circa 3K LPs...having some, I can wait those 24 hours without braking the shape or form of the LPs groves. Believe, this is a good advise...
Happy listening!
 

paolo

Active Member
Nov 7, 2016
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I find the best way to ensure optimum LP quality is to clean and play the record but once, committing the performance to memory, where it remains unscathed. There, I can hit mental replay countless times.

Once played, I donate my vinyl to charity. Yes, I have gone through many thousands of vinyl disks, but I feel good, nevertheless, knowing that I have not done more damage.
 

roberto

Well-Known Member
Hola Paolo,

With much respect, your skills are from out of this world. I can't picture myself listening my system mentally.

OTOH, this is the why I am entering into the digital world. No matters how many times you play any song, the quality remains the same. On these days, I am really enjoying my digital sound. I am very happy with it. I have finesse at the musical instruments with great harmonic texture. The size of them are right too. The stage is wide and also great sense of depth. I don't have any harsh sound at all, the voices are free of sore throats and cold. The strings are silky and the winds instruments are very good too. The cymbals are projected in the air with no zippppp sound. Percussion instruments are very dynamics with great sense of what the musician(s) are doing. At the piano, it is very easy to understand what the left hand is doing vs the right hand. The ambience is very good too.

I have to tell you that I do not have any CD player. I have computer music, and my music is save into external hard drives. I have some ripped CDs, but must of my music is in DSD format. The sampling frequency starts at 2.8M at 24 bits. So, I really do like what I am hearing now.

Happy listening!
 

paolo

Active Member
Nov 7, 2016
66
26
35
Roberto,
I cannot claim to have a completely accurate recollection of my LP's but for the most part, the music is in my head. Having said that, it is not a completely satisfactory situation because all too often, I am left with many "ear worms" which can go round and round, heard only by me.

Fortunately, I can usually ameliorate this unpleasant situation, with at least 15 minutes of meditation, often listening to the music of Georg Deuter. But still, it is an ongoing issue.

I must confess, that I sometimes wonder if my efforts to preserve vinyl are ill-conceived and ultimately counter-productive. The most upsetting thing is, I have no way of knowing what happens to the vinyl I give away. I prefer not to think about it, but nevertheless, I sometimes do. I'm left with a rather existential question of "what is the best course of action?"

I have a wonderful turntable and love analog reproduction, but now I ask myself if, perhaps, digital might be a preferable path?
 
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roberto

Well-Known Member
Well, all I can say is: sound is a matter of liking. What I do like, not necessary must be your liking. In a general way of speaking, digital to my ears, have come to a point that my ears do not suffer as they did before with digital sound. My ears got fatigue in only 30 minutes of listening. On these days, I can listen digital sound all the time that I like without any ear fatigue. This is telling me too, that digital had changed for good or my ears are bad. The good thing is that recently I went for a general health check, and the Dr. said that my ears are from a man of 45 years old. My right ear did not measure as good as the left ear. The truth is, I do not care this. I do know how a piano sounds, or a guitar. A cymbal or maracas. A trumpet or a tube. An oboe or clarinet. A violin or a cello. So this is what I am trying to obtain in my system. To have the voices and the instruments to have the harmonic texture that I listen when are live.

Being a musician, I did took care well my ears. I never exposed them to a high level. If I was going to a place with heavy strong sounds, I always carry ear's protector, even at a concert halls.

My immediate memory is not too good. It last only 15 to 20 seconds...then I can't recall the other component well. I have an idea, but I can get confused. To do comparisons, what I do is to listen several times, with the same program material, the device that I am testing, I have a notebook with me, and I write what I like and what I do not at certain points of the music, then I do the change. Having the notes on hand, I have a better understanding the comparison.

Many audiophiles do their comparisons A-B-X. Usually what I do is I listen A, then I listen B. Then I listen B again, and back to A. My brain likes to have a week or 15 days the device in my system, then I do the change. This offers me a better way to find if my liking is toward any of what I am testing.

If you find yourself tapping the floor with your foot, this means that you are OK. Beware when this does not happens.

Happy listening!
 

Gregadd

WBF Founding Member
Apr 20, 2010
6,953
154
280
Metro DC
Palo what is the word I am looking for? Are you being sarcastic or fecetious?
Roberto there is no "digital spund" All sound is analog. Therefore it osmosis le to produce something superior by converting it to digital and back to analog.
I reluctantly accept your preference for the digital medium.
I am reminded of Romeo employing the sun to rise and destroy the envious moon.
 

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