Master Built-What are Owners Hearing That They Didn't Hear With Other Cables

[DaveyF]

One of these days, we are going to see a company selling good old fashioned light zip cord...at huge prices that will make one's hair stand up. Question is, how much mileage can this company get from a marketing campaign that is just full of 'BS'?? Some might believe that is all that is needed...so long as some a'phile (s) also happens to find the sound of the zip cord as revolutionary....

Hmm this gives me an idea for my next biz adventure, LOL

BTW, I am NOT talking about the Master Built cables here...I'm sure they do make a nice SQ improvement....but I am talking about how gullible so many of our fellow hobbyists can be.

 

[Al M.]

One of these days, we are going to see a company selling good old fashioned light zip cord...at huge prices that will make one's hair stand up. Question is, how much mileage can this company get from a marketing campaign that is just full of 'BS'?? Some might believe that is all that is needed...so long as some a'phile (s) also happens to find the sound of the zip cord as revolutionary....

Hmm this gives me an idea for my next biz adventure, LOL

BTW, I am NOT talking about the Master Built cables here...I'm sure they do make a nice SQ improvement....but I am talking about how gullible so many of our fellow hobbyists can be.

Zip-cord will work best with the Magic Stones on top of it. Now that you can charge some money for...

 

[microstrip]

One of these days, we are going to see a company selling good old fashioned light zip cord...at huge prices that will make one's hair stand up. Question is, how much mileage can this company get from a marketing campaign that is just full of 'BS'?? Some might believe that is all that is needed...so long as some a'phile (s) also happens to find the sound of the zip cord as revolutionary....

Hmm this gives me an idea for my next biz adventure, LOL

BTW, I am NOT talking about the Master Built cables here...I'm sure they do make a nice SQ improvement....but I am talking about how gullible so many of our fellow hobbyists can be.

I do not like paying for expensive cables - it is why 99% of the time I get used cables. I have a large lot of decent inexpensive IC and speaker cables, due to skeptical moments - Mogami, van den Hul, Nain, Supra, CableTalk. But unfortunately the expensive cables I own or have owned systematically sound much better when properly matched.

IMHO your suggested next biz adventure is condemned to failure. Many amateur cable adventures have been tried by others, and failed after a short time. The test of time is our biggest allied in keeping the high-end healthy.

 

[853guy]

We also would understand the results on the distortion cancelling JBL "charge coupled method", the details of what was tested, what were the results and who the participants were. And probably would love to know what was listened blind and what was listened sighted and by customers from around the world in the development of the revolutionary Mark Levinson No53 - just referring to the No 53 Harman brochure.

The more we dig, the more marketing sins we will find in this industry. Please note that I find it normal and common marketing practice - I am no way accusing any manufacturer. Just showing that almost all of them use similar marketing strategies to get the attention of consumers.

Some, scientifically more prudent, but with great hypocrisy, disguise this type of comments as consumer or happy owners opinions in their site letters section ...

Also good points, Micro.

Agreed.

 

[853guy]

That is pretty funny. I would say it is ONE answer to the question, "what is an audiophile?" There are certainly others. I would like to hear these cables just to be able to add something meaningful to the original thread topic. Then again, if I hear the cables in a familiar system, but am not an actual owner, could I still share my impressions in this thread? That might hint at another answer to your question, 853guy.

Hi Peter,

Of course, I jest. (Or do I?)

However, as my current world view holds that data gained via anecdotal/heuristical methodologies is just as worthy of consideration as any gained through objective measurement - especially when dealing with a perceptual phenomenon - I am completely happy to support anyone in rewiring their own system with a full coterie of MB cables at their inconvenience and potential expense and sharing their findings for my pleasure and entertainment.

Like the true trooper his is, Steve has already graciously done so. And in expressing our gratitude, we called into question not only his hearing, but also the ethics of the companies involved in manufacturing and distributing said cables. Because if there's one thing I've learnt from being around the socio-cultural clique known collectively as 'audiophiles', it's that how one spends one's money is the business of everyone else and the only right and proper thing to do is judge without introspection, critique without experience and use data as a weapon.

Oh Lord, have mercy on us all.

 

[thedudeabides]

Totally agree. It is why some folks like me, and I am sure others, don't post about their listening impressions because they don't need / want the hyper critical, uninformed, "data" based comments that the post will generate.

 

[DonH50]

Biasing capacitors to reduce sensitivity to hysteresis and voltage coefficients is well-known and at least IME (maybe not that of others) addresses effects that are orders of magnitude greater than charge traps and other dielectric properties, as well as current flow issues in the conductors, with respect to sources of noise and nonlinearity at audio frequencies. If the capacitors are polar, like electrolytics, or ceramic (high voltage coefficients), then biasing is much more useful than for typical film capacitors, again IME.

From what I have read, it appears that the MB cables act as a filter and provide some isolation from source to load (on top of all the other claims), which may explain why they sound different. But, that is purely speculation, of course.

Edit: Just saw the post above, started to delete mine, then figured the heck with it. Hopefully not too many will take it as "hyper critical, uninformed, "data" based comments".

 

[Al M.]

Totally agree. It is why some folks like me, and I am sure others, don't post about their listening impressions because they don't need / want the hyper critical, uninformed, "data" based comments that the post will generate.

Never had any problem with that. But then I don't deal with $ 80 K cables. But, whatever floats your boat.

 

[Steve Williams]

I don't deal with $ 80 K cables

either do I, or is that a number you just picked out of your hat ?

 

[Al M.]

either do I, or is that a number you just picked out of your hat ?

I thought we had discussed the extreme prices, and that a full loom was something like that. If that is wrong I apologize, Steve. So what's the real number?

 

[ack]

Biasing capacitors to reduce sensitivity to hysteresis and voltage coefficients is well-known and at least IME (maybe not that of others) addresses effects that are orders of magnitude greater than charge traps and other dielectric properties, as well as current flow issues in the conductors, with respect to sources of noise and nonlinearity at audio frequencies. If the capacitors are polar, like electrolytics, or ceramic (high voltage coefficients), then biasing is much more useful than for typical film capacitors, again IME.

From what I have read, it appears that the MB cables act as a filter and provide some isolation from source to load (on top of all the other claims), which may explain why they sound different. But, that is purely speculation, of course.

Edit: Just saw the post above, started to delete mine, then figured the heck with it. Hopefully not too many will take it as "hyper critical, uninformed, "data" based comments".

In Steve's system thread, he posted the following information:

I discussed this with Leif and he states that the Master Built engineers voice the cable for 3 things 1. Low reactance 2. Low capacitance 3. they must be neutral. IOW signal coming out is identical to that going in

Does #2 tell you anything about inductance?

 

[amirm]

As far as I remember I found it in an old reference book about dielectrics, in a section addressing noise. Under some conditions the formation of free radicals and chain fragments due to breaking of bonds could create localized charged sites that affected the performance of the dielectric. I think I posted a link in WBF, I will look for it. If really interested on the subject google for the Maxwell–Wagner effect - I found about it at that time, enjoyed reading but already forgot it, it is not my area of interest!

Maxwell-Wagner effect deals with permittivity differences in two dielectrics causing charge storage. It has nothing to do with free radical theory proposed here when the cable is new, or broken in.

Free radicals as MB's web site talks about is a property of the insulation -- new or aged. The process of making some insulation material relies on free radicals to chemically bond two different material. It is talked about in the context of wires on its impact on fire rating and long term reliability of the insulator. There is no text that talks about it impacting anything related to audio getting transferred inside the conductor. The reliability factor may indeed be a consideration when you send such cables to space and such. In that regard it is important to not take merit in one domain and apply it to another (i.e. audio).

Bottom line: there is no data remotely connecting free radicals to burn-in or audio fidelity. Or heck, any other signal fidelity. If you have such a reference, I like to read it.

 

[amirm]

amirm...

Save your money my friend

Will you be at AXPONA and showing this cable there? I was hoping to hear it at CES but you were using a different brand.

 

[Steve Williams]

You'd be the last person I'd let in the front door

 

[amirm]

Hi Amir,

The car industry is one of the most heavily regulated in the world, and the agencies responsible for said regulation are numerous and state-funded. Are cars and audio cables equivalent in terms of the federal regulations apropos their performance?

If not, it's a little redundant to except the same levels of disclosure wouldn't you say?

853guy

Hi there. In this regard (making statements about performance in advertising or forums), yes, they are both treated the same and consumer protection is provided by the Federal Trade Commision (FTC) against false advertising. See section 5 of FTC Act: https://www.federalreserve.gov/boarddocs/supmanual/cch/ftca.pdf

"Section 5(a) of the Federal Trade Commission Act
(FTC Act) (15 USC §45) prohibits “unfair or
deceptive acts or practices in or affecting
commerce.” This prohibition applies to all persons
engaged in commerce, including banks."

[...]

Deceptive Practices
An act or practice is deceptive where
• a representation, omission, or practice misleads
or is likely to mislead the consumer;

• a consumer’s interpretation of the representation,
omission, or practice is considered reasonable
under the circumstances; and

• the misleading representation, omission, or practice
is material."

As you can see, these provisions would apply to all manner of advertising for goods to consumers, be it cars or audio products.

Importantly in this context, FTC put out guidelines that stipulated that bloggers (including forum posts) that receive any consideration (including loan of equipment, discounts, etc) must include clear disclosure of such in their write-up. Not doing so violates the above act. Please see: https://www.ftc.gov/tips-advice/bus...tcs-endorsement-guides-what-people-are-asking

"Do the Endorsement Guides apply to social media?
Yes. Truth in advertising is important in all media, whether they have been around for decades (like, television and magazines) or are relatively new (like, blogs and social media).

[...]

Isn’t it common knowledge that bloggers are paid to tout products or that if you click a link on a blogger’s site to buy a product, the blogger will get a commission?
No. Some bloggers who mention products in their posts have no connection to the marketers of those products – they don’t receive anything for their reviews or get a commission. They simply recommend those products to their readers because they believe in them. Moreover, the financial arrangements between some bloggers and advertisers may be apparent to industry insiders, but not to everyone else who reads a particular blog. Under the law, an act or practice is deceptive if it misleads “a significant minority” of consumers. Even if some readers are aware of these deals, many readers aren’t. That’s why disclosure is important.

Are you monitoring bloggers?
Generally not, but if concerns about possible violations of the FTC Act come to our attention, we’ll evaluate them case by case. If law enforcement becomes necessary, our focus usually will be on advertisers or their ad agencies and public relations firms. Action against an individual endorser, however, might be appropriate in certain circumstances."

The entire document is must-read for any forum owner as the liability for them is higher than individual posters.

Regardless of the law, the ethics of this would require one to always be front and center about any potential bias. That standard better be higher than what the law requires. It is what I try to practice as much as I can. Here is a random example I just searched for:

There is no vertical attenuation of bass in M2 of course so if this loudspeaker clearly can do that without showing a lot of colorations off-axis, that would be a significant innovation.

P.S. My company deals with fair amount of Harman/JBL products. So please read the above with assumption of bias .

Anyway, probably more than you were asking for . But there it is.

 

[microstrip]

Maxwell-Wagner effect deals with permittivity differences in two dielectrics causing charge storage. It has nothing to do with free radical theory proposed here when the cable is new, or broken in.

Free radicals as MB's web site talks about is a property of the insulation -- new or aged. The process of making some insulation material relies on free radicals to chemically bond two different material. It is talked about in the context of wires on its impact on fire rating and long term reliability of the insulator. There is no text that talks about it impacting anything related to audio getting transferred inside the conductor. The reliability factor may indeed be a consideration when you send such cables to space and such. In that regard it is important to not take merit in one domain and apply it to another (i.e. audio).

Bottom line: there is no data remotely connecting free radicals to burn-in or audio fidelity. Or heck, any other signal fidelity. If you have such a reference, I like to read it.

Surely - no one doing serious research on cables directly addresses high-end or audio cables. They address reliability, aging and cable performance, including noise. And as such they refer to free radicals and charge traps - see Don previous post. If you want to read more just see this example (the time span of the data included in the article is 24, 48 and 96 hours). And yes, I know that if someone does not want to see, nothing can force him to see.

Still waiting for your answers considering Harman products ...

 

[mountainjoe]

Biasing capacitors to reduce sensitivity to hysteresis and voltage coefficients is well-known and at least IME (maybe not that of others) addresses effects that are orders of magnitude greater than charge traps and other dielectric properties, as well as current flow issues in the conductors, with respect to sources of noise and nonlinearity at audio frequencies. If the capacitors are polar, like electrolytics, or ceramic (high voltage coefficients), then biasing is much more useful than for typical film capacitors, again IME.

This is correct - especially wrt electrolytic capacitors - they need some bias in order to achieve the rated performance (i.e. the capacitance will drop when the bias is low or zero - this has the secondary effect of increasing ESR). That said, whoever refers to this as "class A" bias is taking liberties with the term as it is applied to active circuits and generally refers to current, not voltage. So as stated by several folks here, many manufacturers take liberties wrt to their marketing - that is simply part of the high end audio game imo.

 

[amirm]

Surely - no one doing serious research on cables directly addresses high-end or audio cables. They address reliability, aging and cable performance, including noise. And as such they refer to free radicals and charge traps - see Don previous post. If you want to read more just see this example (the time span of the data included in the article is 24, 48 and 96 hours). And yes, I know that if someone does not want to see, nothing can force him to see.

Did you read the introduction section right past that abstract?

As you see it says exactly what I said in my post. That the issue of free radicals and such are of concern in aging of the insulation where it matters (e.g. high voltage lines). They use electricity in this paper for accelerated aging, again as I mentioned.

Importantly there is no mention of Maxwell-Wagner that you said is in play here.

Al asked a good question which was relevance of free radicals to audio performance. You gave him a random answer which has nothing to do with the topic at hand. Here is the company quote again:

"b) Dielectric absorption of the high frequency component of the music signal by the insulation material creates a non-linear response. Since most elements have “free radical” electrons in their atomic makeup, the musical signal will be affected when the electrons collide with the dielectric’s “free radical” electrons. This distortion creates a “fog” over the music that masks realism. MB’s solution is to use dielectric materials that do not alter the electrical signal. Our proprietary formulation consists of vacuum-formed Teflon, which is as close to perfection as possible in reducing dielectric distortion. Our Teflon coating is applied with a proprietary method that does not result in free radical Teflon electrons placed in the signal path."

We care about music here, not how high-voltage cable insulation can degrade. Do you have any relevant research to parts I have highlighted???

 

[853guy]

Hi there. In this regard (making statements about performance in advertising or forums), yes, they are both treated the same and consumer protection is provided by the Federal Trade Commision (FTC) against false advertising. See section 5 of FTC Act: https://www.federalreserve.gov/boarddocs/supmanual/cch/ftca.pdf

"Section 5(a) of the Federal Trade Commission Act
(FTC Act) (15 USC §45) prohibits “unfair or
deceptive acts or practices in or affecting
commerce.” This prohibition applies to all persons
engaged in commerce, including banks."

[...]

Deceptive Practices
An act or practice is deceptive where
• a representation, omission, or practice misleads
or is likely to mislead the consumer;

• a consumer’s interpretation of the representation,
omission, or practice is considered reasonable
under the circumstances; and

• the misleading representation, omission, or practice
is material."

As you can see, these provisions would apply to all manner of advertising for goods to consumers, be it cars or audio products.

Importantly in this context, FTC put out guidelines that stipulated that bloggers (including forum posts) that receive any consideration (including loan of equipment, discounts, etc) must include clear disclosure of such in their write-up. Not doing so violates the above act. Please see: https://www.ftc.gov/tips-advice/bus...tcs-endorsement-guides-what-people-are-asking

"Do the Endorsement Guides apply to social media?
Yes. Truth in advertising is important in all media, whether they have been around for decades (like, television and magazines) or are relatively new (like, blogs and social media).

[...]

Isn’t it common knowledge that bloggers are paid to tout products or that if you click a link on a blogger’s site to buy a product, the blogger will get a commission?
No. Some bloggers who mention products in their posts have no connection to the marketers of those products – they don’t receive anything for their reviews or get a commission. They simply recommend those products to their readers because they believe in them. Moreover, the financial arrangements between some bloggers and advertisers may be apparent to industry insiders, but not to everyone else who reads a particular blog. Under the law, an act or practice is deceptive if it misleads “a significant minority” of consumers. Even if some readers are aware of these deals, many readers aren’t. That’s why disclosure is important.

Are you monitoring bloggers?
Generally not, but if concerns about possible violations of the FTC Act come to our attention, we’ll evaluate them case by case. If law enforcement becomes necessary, our focus usually will be on advertisers or their ad agencies and public relations firms. Action against an individual endorser, however, might be appropriate in certain circumstances."

The entire document is must-read for any forum owner as the liability for them is higher than individual posters.

Hi Amir,

So the question is, what action will you be taking against MB aside from posting in this thread. Any?

Regardless of the law, the ethics of this would require one to always be front and center about any potential bias. That standard better be higher than what the law requires. It is what I try to practice as much as I can. Here is a random example I just searched for:

There is no vertical attenuation of bass in M2 of course so if this loudspeaker clearly can do that without showing a lot of colorations off-axis, that would be a significant innovation.

P.S. My company deals with fair amount of Harman/JBL products. So please read the above with assumption of bias

.

But of course. I'd imagine a quick Google search of your past dealings on internet forums reveals nothing less than consistently stellar ethical conduct on your behalf, Amir. And I'm sure based solely on your assurance above, no one need do so.

 

[Steve Williams]

But of course. I'd imagine a quick Google search of your past dealings on internet forums reveals nothing less than consistently stellar ethical conduct on your behalf, Amir. And I'm sure based solely on your assurance above, no one need do so.

+1