Metrum HEX + Stagleformer based volume Control

[edorr]

So I decided a week ago to try the forthcoming MSB analog DAC and the Aesthetix Pandora against my Perfectwave MKII and keep the winner. I'm on the list for a MSB demo.

Still looking around a bit I came across a brand new all balanced version of the highly aclaimed metrum DAC. This is their "Hex" model. It will ship in the US in a few weeks. It is also a ladder DAC, with some unique design features, using industrial DAC chips.

http://www.nosminidac.nl/Hex_English.html



The only thing missing is a volume control, but considering it is substantially cheaper than the MSB there would be plenty budget left for that. I was thinking I could building a fully balanced passive volume control (hardwired in a single chassis or connected with interconnect in an external box), using four passive bent stagleformers modules.

http://www.bentaudio.com/index2.html.

In fact, this should give me a better volume control than the MSB.

Anyone care to comment on this idea, impressions on build/architecture of the Metrum HEX, and a stagleformer based volume control?

Any (purely speculative) comments on the probability of this being even close to the MSB analog DAC?

 

[opus111]

The Octave I considered a great sound bargain, this design is around 10dB more expensive. My main criticism is the use of 3 toroidal transformers with only an off-the-shelf mains inlet filter. There will be a fairly wide-open window to mains borne noise. The measurements of the Octave sucked rather owning to the industrial DAC being used which Metrum take pains to hide the identity of. However the layout and claimed measurements correspond to TI's DAC8580 which is a 16bit resistor string DAC with low glitch energy, one of the reasons I believe the Octave sounded so good. I consider the considerable higher order distortion from this DAC its weakpoint though - running it in differential mode probably will do little to reduce it. It has also a limitation of being only 16bit resolution (although I recall Metrum claimed otherwise for the Octave, without supporting their claim) so if you want to play any hires material, look elsewhere.

 

[zydeco]

The Octave I considered a great sound bargain, this design is around 10dB more expensive. My main criticism is the use of 3 toroidal transformers with only an off-the-shelf mains inlet filter. There will be a fairly wide-open window to mains borne noise. The measurements of the Octave sucked rather owning to the industrial DAC being used which Metrum take pains to hide the identity of. However the layout and claimed measurements correspond to TI's DAC8580 which is a 16bit resistor string DAC with low glitch energy, one of the reasons I believe the Octave sounded so good. I consider the considerable higher order distortion from this DAC its weakpoint though - running it in differential mode probably will do little to reduce it. It has also a limitation of being only 16bit resolution (although I recall Metrum claimed otherwise for the Octave, without supporting their claim) so if you want to play any hires material, look elsewhere.

I’ve not heard the Hex but share the interest (as well as the agony) of a DAC purchase. My interest evolved to MSB Analog DAC (and Bricasti M1) but now have a nagging doubt that tweaks interest in more cost effective options. This doubt is fuelled, in part by the extreme range of views on each specific DAC – which often seems disproportionate and most often doesn't attempt to explane the cause of issues. Your posts, Opus111, are – in this environment – exceptionally helpful and I’m now thinking that the best that one can do is get a short-list based on a good layout / design. (Here in-store listening and try-before-you buy are both impossible – the best one can do is buy with a 1 or 2 week return period.)

Zydeco

 

[opus111]

...I’m now thinking that the best that one can do is get a short-list based on a good layout / design. (Here in-store listening and try-before-you buy are both impossible – the best one can do is buy with a 1 or 2 week return period.)

Its true that there are fewer and fewer chances to try-before-you-buy nowadays with the growth of online selling and also online reviewing. I think in order to draw up your shortlist the first thing to get clear is the kind of digital material you want to play. My suggestion is to get a DAC which suits the bulk of your music collection rather than try to cover all bases in one unit. The latter I feel will lead to compromises in the SQ. So if you have 98% redbook (like me), seek out a DAC which does justice to that format. Such a DAC will probably not play DSD and also won't necessarily do justice to the hires formats, if it can play them at all. Having only a redbook DAC (at first, pending choice of a hires one) means you can still listen to your hires, just you'll have to down-convert first. I make CD down-converted copies of some of my best hires downloads, others are languishing on a hard disk somewhere, unplayed in years.

The upside of investing in a redbook-only DAC is its not going to be so subject to the upgrade-itis which plagues the newer formats.

<edit> Incidentally I searched for the 'stagleformer' volume control you (edorr) mentioned and it only said 'comming (sic) soon'

 

[Andre Marc]

So I decided a week ago to try the forthcoming MSB analog DAC and the Aesthetix Pandora against my Perfectwave MKII and keep the winner. I'm on the list for a MSB demo.

Still looking around a bit I came across a brand new all balanced version of the highly aclaimed metrum DAC. This is their "Hex" model. It will ship in the US in a few weeks. It is also a ladder DAC, with some unique design features, using industrial DAC chips.

http://www.nosminidac.nl/Hex_English.html

View attachment 5957

The only thing missing is a volume control, but considering it is substantially cheaper than the MSB there would be plenty budget left for that. I was thinking I could building a fully balanced passive volume control (hardwired in a single chassis or connected with interconnect in an external box), using four passive bent stagleformers modules.

http://www.bentaudio.com/index2.html.

In fact, this should give me a better volume control than the MSB.

Anyone care to comment on this idea, impressions on build/architecture of the Metrum HEX, and a stagleformer based volume control?

Any (purely speculative) comments on the probability of this being even close to the MSB analog DAC?

Playing devil's advocate here...is this not just another DAC Flavor of
The Month with no dealer network and internet forum buzz?

 

[edorr]

<edit> Incidentally I searched for the 'stagleformer' volume control you (edorr) mentioned and it only said 'comming (sic) soon'

I hope the guy builds better electronics than websites. The Stagleformer is on the page called "OEM / DIY TAP Modules", but it turns out all the pages on his site have the same URL. You can only get to a specific page through the navigation on the site. Go to his homepage and then to "OEM / DIY TAP Modules" and you'll see a Stagleformer.
as the page on the site you landed on.

 

[edorr]

Playing devil's advocate here...is this not just another DAC Flavor of
The Month with no dealer network and internet forum buzz?

If the flavor of the month tasts excetionally well I don't really care. No dealers network is a bonus, because it saves 40% of the cost of the unit. He does in fact have a distributor in the USA, that charges the same as direct sale, but these guys do not offer 30 day trial it appears.

 

[Andre Marc]

If the flavor of the month tasts excetionally well I don't really care. No dealers network is a bonus, because it saves 40% of the cost of the unit. He does in fact have a distributor in the USA, that charges the same as direct sale, but these guys do not offer 30 day trial it appears.

So one who purchases something like this has to have money burning a whole in their pocket and will base the decision on internet buzz, spec sheets, and hip factor?

The importer is a rinky dink dealer with no importing/distributing experience that I know of. Seen this many times, these relationships with European companies are usually fly by night.

Fo me...No Hear=No Buy.

 

[edorr]

So one who purchases something like this has to have money burning a whole in their pocket and will base the decision on internet buzz, spec sheets, and hip factor?

The importer is a rinky dink dealer with no importing/distributing experience that I know of. Seen this many times, these relationships with European companies are usually fly by night.

Fo me...No Hear=No Buy.

Same here. I never buy without trying at home first. I will only audition this DAC if I can get it in my system with at least 15 day return policy. The standard terms this distributor offers is 15 days + 20% restocking fees, which is a non starter for me. If they can't do better than that I won't audition it.

In my experience almost everyone offers 30 day return on stuff that is sold online without opportunityto hear in a showroom.

 

[Andre Marc]

Same here. I never buy without trying at home first. I will only audition this DAC if I can get it in my system with at least 15 day return policy. The standard terms this distributor offers is 15 days + 20% restocking fees, which is a non starter for me. If they can't do better than that I won't audition it.

In my experience almost everyone offers 30 day return on stuff that is sold online without opportunityto hear in a showroom.

I agree 30 days is fair. The restocking fee in my opinion is a sort of
Passive Aggressive thing.

In the end, there are just so many good DACs out there made by companies with a dealer network and a proven record.

 

[edorr]

I agree 30 days is fair. The restocking fee in my opinion is a sort of
Passive Aggressive thing.

In the end, there are just so many good DACs out there made by companies with a dealer network and a proven record.

Just commercially dumb. If you don't have a physical dealer network you need to offer 30 day return, or you are going to loose a lot of sales. Everyone else does.

 

[edorr]

It has also a limitation of being only 16bit resolution (although I recall Metrum claimed otherwise for the Octave, without supporting their claim) so if you want to play any hires material, look elsewhere.

How would this work with 96/24 material? Chop off 6 bits of information? This would be a dead in the water product. It is a liittle suspicous though that the site only mentions sampling rate specs, not bit depth. Thanks for pointing this out though. I will ask the manufacturer.

 

[opus111]

How would this work with 96/24 material? Chop off 6 bits of information?

No, lose 8 bits of information, though to be fair at least 4 of those 8 will be noise.

This would be a dead in the water product. It is a liittle suspicous though that the site only mentions sampling rate specs, not bit depth. Thanks for pointing this out though. I will ask the manufacturer.

After I pointed out the 16bit limitation of the Octave on DIYA, one of the posters there did exactly that and got the answer that it was indeed 24bits. Which is impossible given 16bit DACs - yet the manufacturer hides which DACs are used by scratching off their markings. I shall be very interested to learn what reply you receive to your question.

 

[zydeco]

I agree 30 days is fair. The restocking fee in my opinion is a sort of
Passive Aggressive thing.

In the end, there are just so many good DACs out there made by companies with a dealer network and a proven record.

You folks have it good in the U.S.A. Here in (Western) Australia the few remaining hi-fi stores don't hold DAC stock. You can order, unheard, a NAD M51 no return. More hi-end brands (e.g., PD, MSB, AMR, Bricasti) have to be sourced from stores / resellers in the Eastern States. So far in my search for a DAC I've been offered: a) a discount on retail with no return, b) 100% payment with 2-week return period and c) 50% payment with 1-week return period.

Zydeco

 

[edorr]

You folks have it good in the U.S.A. Here in (Western) Australia the few remaining hi-fi stores don't hold DAC stock. You can order, unheard, a NAD M51 no return. More hi-end brands (e.g., PD, MSB, AMR, Bricasti) have to be sourced from stores / resellers in the Eastern States. So far in my search for a DAC I've been offered: a) a discount on retail with no return, b) 100% payment with 2-week return period and c) 50% payment with 1-week return period.

Zydeco

In my opinion buying depreciated gear used to audition is always preferable over buying new, especially in your neck of the woods, but even in the US if you get good dealer discount and 30 day return. I've bought and owned some stuff for less then a week and resold with minimal or no loss (ADA Mach IV, Pass Labs XP-10 and others).

The economics are simple. If I buy a brand new MSB analog DAC for say $10K and use it for 2 years, I can resell it for $6K (if that). Total cost of ownersip $2000/year. Let say a used 2 year old Platinum DAC with powerbase and femto clock shows up (MSRP $20K) for $10. If you buy that and use it for 3 years, you can probably resell for at least $8,000 in two years time, so total cost of ownership is half and you have a better DAC. Unfortunately, some stuff just does not show up used (e.g. used MSB platinum DACs with Femto clocks), and some digital stuff may be a true innovation or a stepchange on the price performance curve (e.g. the Oppo Universal players), in which case these economics don't apply. In this case you bite the bullet and buy new.

 

[Andre Marc]

You folks have it good in the U.S.A. Here in (Western) Australia the few remaining hi-fi stores don't hold DAC stock. You can order, unheard, a NAD M51 no return. More hi-end brands (e.g., PD, MSB, AMR, Bricasti) have to be sourced from stores / resellers in the Eastern States. So far in my search for a DAC I've been offered: a) a discount on retail with no return, b) 100% payment with 2-week return period and c) 50% payment with 1-week return period.

Zydeco

I hear you. We are definitely spoiled. We have the power of mass consumption on our side.

Most Americans do not even realize that they pay half the cost of fuel the the rest of the world does.

I remember even when CDs were at their peak, friends in Europe would complain the prices were double.

And availability of product is another issue. We have everything and anything at our finger tips.

We certainly take certain things for granted.

 

[Andre Marc]

In my opinion buying depreciated gear used to audition is always preferable over buying new, especially in your neck of the woods, but even in the US if you get good dealer discount and 30 day return. I've bought and owned some stuff for less then a week and resold with minimal or no loss (ADA Mach IV, Pass Labs XP-10 and others).

The economics are simple. If I buy a brand new MSB analog DAC for say $10K and use it for 2 years, I can resell it for $6K (if that). Total cost of ownersip $2000/year. Let say a used 2 year old Platinum DAC with powerbase and femto clock shows up (MSRP $20K) for $10. If you buy that and use it for 3 years, you can probably resell for at least $8,000 in two years time, so total cost of ownership is half and you have a better DAC. Unfortunately, some stuff just does not show up used (e.g. used MSB platinum DACs with Femto clocks), and some digital stuff may be a true innovation or a stepchange on the price performance curve (e.g. the Oppo Universal players), in which case these economics don't apply. In this case you bite the bullet and buy new.

Man, you must be dizzy from being on that Equipment MerryGoRound.

 

[edorr]

Man, you must be dizzy from being on that Equipment MerryGoRound.

I am Fedex's best friend. I have moved so much gear through my system over the last few years it is embarrassing. After unpacking 1900 lbs worth of crates in June I'm done with speakers though. A better DAC is my last frontier, although as digital technology progresses I can see some simplification of my sources systems down the pike.

 

[Andre Marc]

I am Fedex's best friend. I have moved so much gear through my system over the last few years it is embarrassing. After unpacking 1900 lbs worth of crates in June I'm done with speakers though. A better DAC is my last frontier, although as digital technology progresses I can see some simplification of my sources systems down the pike.

I hear ya big time. I've been off the merry go round for 4 years now. There comes a time when it is about
change for change's sake, and not anything else. I look the cost of a Shunyata power cord or similar "upgrade" and I see a 100 new albums I could buy instead.

 

[edorr]

I hear ya big time. I've been off the merry go round for 4 years now. There comes a time when it is about
change for change's sake, and not anything else. I look the cost of a Shunyata power cord or similar "upgrade" and I see a 100 new albums I could buy instead.

I listen to the same 100 albums 90% of the time, some I "discovered" 25 years ago. I now discover 1 new artists that truly makes a mark ever three years, and then some of my heros that are still alive release an album every now and then. So to me, buying 100 albums give me a lower return on investement than upgrading a cable that enhances sound quality of those 100 albums I already own and actually listen to.

So this is how I justify spending obscene amounts of money on electronics.....