Modded SET amps

[bonzo75]

Has anyone ever replaced a copper wire wound transformer with a silver wire wound transformer?

Do silver transformer windings and copper transformer windings have consistent differences in sound?

John Roberts has done these blind tests and silver consistently better.

 

[Ron Resnick]

Thank you.

 

[microstrip]

John Roberts has done these blind tests and silver consistently better.

Can you post a link to these listening tests?

 

[bonzo75]

Can you post a link to these listening tests?

http://db.audioasylum.com/mhtml/m.h...wmessage=&sort=score&sortOrder=DESC&forum=ALL

 

[bonzo75]

Mik changes his Jadis to heavy Platinum transformers.

 

[microstrip]

http://db.audioasylum.com/mhtml/m.h...wmessage=&sort=score&sortOrder=DESC&forum=ALL

Thanks - silver wires are one the few understood cases of sound differences in wires.

 

[accwai]

John Roberts has done these blind tests and silver consistently better.

Any details on how the silver transformer is better in those tests?

I recently had my amps upgraded from Ocellia Quaero SE 300B Signature to Quaero SE 300B Silver Signature. Listened to them through a pair of experimental speakers with 12" PHY-HP driver at the Ocellia headquarters the day after the upgrade was done. It was staggeringly musical. But once they're with production model Ocellia Calliope 21 Twin Silver Signature speakers, the treble seems a little hot. Turning the tweeters down a couple of notches bring things under control. Have about 50 hours of run time on the new output transformers so far. Very happy with the system now. Happy enough I can probably live with it for the rest of my life...

 

[bonzo75]

Any details on how the silver transformer is better in those tests?

I recently had my amps upgraded from Ocellia Quaero SE 300B Signature to Quaero SE 300B Silver Signature. Listened to them through a pair of experimental speakers with 12" PHY-HP driver at the Ocellia headquarters the day after the upgrade was done. It was staggeringly musical. But once they're with production model Ocellia Calliope 21 Twin Silver Signature speakers, the treble seems a little hot. Turning the tweeters down a couple of notches bring things under control. Have about 50 hours of run time on the new output transformers so far. Very happy with the system now. Happy enough I can probably live with it for the rest of my life...

Nope. You can PM Joe though, he will reply.

 

[BobShermanEsq]

Has anyone ever replaced a copper wire wound transformer with a silver wire wound transformer?

Do silver transformer windings and copper transformer windings have consistent differences in sound?

Hi Ron,

Transformers can be a combination of science and black art. Not just wire, copper vs silver but dielectric material, lamination grades and materials, core types can all make a difference.

Regards
Bob

 

[Ron Resnick]

Yes, I understand that. I was curious -- holding all other factors constant -- how copper wire winding sounds versus silver wire winding in otherwise the exact same transformer design.

 

[Sablon Audio]

A brief comparison - http://vinylsavor.blogspot.co.uk/2013/07/silver-vs-copper.html

 

[Audiocrack]

I played with many SETs with a good friend who is an excellent builder. We played with coupling caps, resistors and of course transformers. I remember liking Clarity, Audience, Mundorf and V-Caps. Wax caps were still pretty unobtainable back then. Transformers ranged from locally custom wound around salvaged cores to transformers from Tango, Tamura and Lundahl. At the time I only used real RCA 2a3s or WE 300Bs as these were my only play SETs. While I did get to try a number of current production tubes, I never liked any of them enough to buy them. I never got to go into 211s and 845s. At some point I became a distributor and so play ended as the Lamm SETs and later KR SETs came into our possession. Fun times for sure. I still own one custom amp built from scraps. AN transformers salvaged from AN amps that were submerged in a flood, custom case work, AN circuit, KR 300 B tubes in Parallel. That reminds me that I need to get it fixed as it keeps popping B+ fuses on one tube position.

Any specific reason, Jack, that you never got into 211 or 300b amps? Maybe an issue of (not enough) power? To my ears the set 300b/211 amps have something magical, in particular the midrange. Luckily nowadays there are some out there with a very good low end as well.

 

[JackD201]

Any specific reason, Jack, that you never got into 211 or 300b amps? Maybe an issue of (not enough) power? To my ears the set 300b/211 amps have something magical, in particular the midrange. Luckily nowadays there are some out there with a very good low end as well.

I guess I just never got the chance with the bigger tubes AC. I like 211s a lot too, 845s normally not as much. Most 845 amps I'd heard at that time were slow and bloated.

Those were lean years budget wise too so that was the main reason why.

 

[Audiocrack]

I guess I just never got the chance with the bigger tubes AC. I like 211s a lot too, 845s normally not as much. Most 845 amps I'd heard at that time were slow and bloated.

Those were lean years budget wise too so that was the main reason why.

Ah, those good old days with low budgets and a lot of fun ....

I guess we see eye to eye as regards the quality of (good) 211 amps ... playing with one at the moment and I really love what it is doing.

 

[JackD201]

I spent a few hours two nights ago listening to a friend's Air Tight 3211 monos. I must say, VERY beguiling.

 

[microstrip]

I guess I just never got the chance with the bigger tubes AC. I like 211s a lot too, 845s normally not as much. Most 845 amps I'd heard at that time were slow and bloated.

Those were lean years budget wise too so that was the main reason why.

A good friend owns these 845 amps and they do not sound slow and boated ... Unfortunately last weekend I could see them, but they were not connected to his system.

 

[Audiocrack]

I spent a few hours two nights ago listening to a friend's Air Tight 3211 monos. I must say, VERY beguiling.

Those are push pull 211 amps, right?

 

[accwai]

A brief comparison - http://vinylsavor.blogspot.co.uk/2013/07/silver-vs-copper.html

Yup, that VinylSavor article intrigued me enough that when Ocellia announced the silver output transformer option for their amp, I decided I'll take it someday. Rereading the article now, I think it's pretty spot on:

[...] Transparent yes, but it retains all the tone colours of a design and in some cases even enhances them. Totally smooth and enjoyable sound.

Tone colors on my amp was no slouch before the swap, but greatly enhanced with the new transformer. And not just enhanced treble either, it's pretty much across the audio range from top to bottom. And timing of the amp is undisturbed. The combo makes it so easy to make sense of the music being played. Thus the impression of "staggeringly musical" the first time I heard them after the upgrade.

 

[JackD201]

Those are push pull 211 amps, right?

Given the power rating they must be. They sounded as liquid as Air Tight's true 211 SETs however. It seems the top designers these days are able to bias and time their PP circuits much better than 15 years ago.

Micro, back then the only 845s to be auditioned around here were of lower pedigree. I came to the impression that 211s must be better because the 211s from the same manufacturers were markedly better for pretty much the same price. Incomplete data I know but that is all I had to go on.

 

[microstrip]

Given the power rating they must be. They sounded as liquid as Air Tight's true 211 SETs however. It seems the top designers these days are able to bias and time their PP circuits much better than 15 years ago.

Micro, back then the only 845s to be auditioned around here were of lower pedigree. I came to the impression that 211s must be better because the 211s from the same manufacturers were markedly better for pretty much the same price. Incomplete data I know but that is all I had to go on.

Nice to see that you seem to have a positive opinion on the old Air Tight 211 SETs. A pair was offered locally for sale some years ago at a very nice price and I immediately discarded it after seeing the measurements and also the very negative comments of Stereophile on those graphs - I am prepared to ignore measurements but those really seemed too bad!

I think that the important aspect is that more than tube or topology what matters most is design and implementation. In my case I never listened to a 211 tube amplifier of the rank of the Marantz T1, so I can not comment on relative performance at all. In the end we must let our ears be the judges with an open mind.

So it seems we have one more amplifier for Ron's list : the Air Tight 3211 monos!