More Consensus That Streaming Is An Inferior Format & Not High End?

[dminches]

For those who prefer the sonic experience of streaming to physical CDs played on transports, how much does one need to invest, and what products must one buy and assemble? Are we talking about Wadax level or Taiko Extreme or something a bit more pedestrian? Do all the cables and power supplies need to be carefully chosen and optimized for a particular system/location context, or can one say spend $30K and buy a list of stuff, put it all together and be set?

I'd like to read from those who advocate for streaming and better understand what is required to create a listening experience that they prefer to other digital alternatives.

Before I answer, what is your definition of "streaming"? Do you mean any playback of files that are either stored locally or played from a service like Qobuz? Those 2 have some similarities and differences.

 

[bryans]

For those who prefer the sonic experience of streaming to physical CDs played on transports, how much does one need to invest, and what products must one buy and assemble? Are we talking about Wadax level or Taiko Extreme or something a bit more pedestrian? Do all the cables and power supplies need to be carefully chosen and optimized for a particular system/location context, or can one say spend $30K and buy a list of stuff, put it all together and be set?

I'd like to read from those who advocate for streaming and better understand what is required to create a listening experience that they prefer to other digital alternatives.

To me it depends on what you have invested in your CD setup.

 

[PeterA]

Before I answer, what is your definition of "streaming"? Do you mean any playback of files that are either stored locally or played from a service like Qobuz? Those 2 have some similarities and differences.

I am asking about music from streaming services like Qobuz. Thank you.

 

[PeterA]

To me it depends on what you have invested in your CD setup.

Perhaps it does, I do not know. I have the impression that those who prefer CD are generalizing and basically saying that playing physical CDs sound better to them than does streaming, while others prefer "streaming" to physical CDs. I guess my question is if there is an inflection point, where is it? Or do the respective advocates feel their view is true regardless.

Perhaps I could ask, given a specific DAC in a system, does a streaming device or transport sound better. We could think of a DAC like my friends' Schitte Less is More DACs or something like a higher MSB or the Wadax DAC. Is there something inherent in the delivery method that is superior or is it a matter of implementation and money spent? I am asking simply because I read so many different opinions. There does not seem to be consensus, or is there?

 

[dminches]

I am asking about music from streaming services like Qobuz. Thank you.

One could get a unit like a Lumin and be very satisfied with it. Those are under $10k. Of course, you would need a DAC.

On top of that there are the common tweaks like audio-level network switches, etc.

For well under $25k you could build a digital streaming setup that would rival a very good CD player (but not the best). Of course, you can't play high resolution files with a CD player so a streaming setup has that advantage.

 

[Gregadd]

I mean Paul suggested that "compression" may be the issue. Given the huge files some services have that must be a major issue for them. I think memory continues to get cheapen. Maybe that issue needs to be discussed as opposed to personal opinion polls.

 

[matthias]

I mean Paul suggested that "compression" may be the issue. Given the huge files some services have that must be a major issue for them. I think memory continues to get cheapen. Maybe that issue needs to be discussed as opposed to personal opinion polls.

I do not think that "compression" can be fixed by a streamer. But PS Audio claim that streamed music via their recently launched streamer is on par to local files.

Matt

 

[rando]

Okay. I think what you describe is not unique to audio streaming; these are general issues of data integrity, and change management for dynamic and real-time systems. I am not knowledgeable in the technology behind streaming audio from streaming services, although I know a little about data processing.

I entered the conversation at a point well beyond directly following the letter narrated to video by Mr. McGowan. To more broadly address that from the outset a separation of streaming from the high end was set in place to be examined. More than most conversations this required a dip into lower level electronics and thought underlying conventional solutions at the consumer level.

Insecure data transmission of non-critical status depicts much in the way of openly conducted activities. Including highly encrypted streaming online from recognized entities.

Perhaps a streaming expert can answer: What claims do services makes about their data? Does streamed audio include metadata about itself sufficient for a streamer or some other computer to validate the received file to the source file -- analogous to a checksum? Do streaming services know the streamer to whom they send data? Do local streamers/computers do data 'correction' or interpolation before handing off their payload to a DAC?

I would expect you have some familiarity how I/O relates to use within tokens, virtual authentication dongles, etc. Unique identifiers assigned to hardware or users statically and dynamically. Typically you encounter very small files performing as many return trips as needed for purposes of authentication. The resulting verification after all this bouncing information back and forth is stored on your device. It has a set expiration period or set of ways it can be invalidated. After which it insists on renewal.

For our purposes, detection of tampering with delivery of a stream would trigger any number of hard to specify events. To determine between malice or technical issues (or a mouse chewing on your cat8 to eat plant based wire wrapping). The most typical issue, response to poor reception quality, results in first telling the streaming app/program to shift towards using a lower quality of stream. Tackling this complex subject with someone actively involved in mitigating audio concerns through production of high end networking hardware would go far beyond talking points on streaming being granted unanimous reception into the high end.

Suffice to say that something like bit perfect is a rather low bar in terms of performance nowadays. Here it can be interpreted along the line that millions of people use a door every day. If it opens and closes, it works perfectly. It performs a base duty without disallowing passage or blockage. This is right up there with does a needle contact the playing surface of a LP and lift away cleanly when removed. Hard fact of the matter is no matter how fancy of hinges you install or how much decoration is added to a door. When you lock it there is an expectation of it being secure while still allowing for keyed access from either side. That winds will be stilled at the threshold.

 

[andromedaaudio]

But PS Audio claim that streamed music via their recently launched streamer is on par to local files.

Conclusion .....Its a highly biased commercial video , its all marketing

I remember PS audio of those dynamics constraining power conditioners

 

[matthias]

Conclusion .....Its a highly biased commercial video , its all marketing

Yes, see this:

Matt

 

[dminches]

Yes, see this:

Matt

So, basically, streaming isn't high end unless the streamer is made by PS Audio?

 

[matthias]

So, basically, streaming isn't high end unless the streamer is made by PS Audio?

Exactly

 

[andromedaaudio]

Yes, see this:

Matt

Just like i said more shiny mysterie boxes which enhance the sound .
But thats what a lot of audiophiles want , so i see no harm in giving it to them .
First rule of business :
Find out what the customer wants and supply that to the customer ( that is if you want to stay in business )

 

[matthias]

So, basically, streaming isn't high end unless the streamer is made by PS Audio?

I remember a post on the Taiko thread where @romaz added a streamer from a respected manufacturer to his Extreme.
The result:
Sounding worse than direct USB from Extreme to DAC.
Now compare this to Paul's video.

Matt

 

[wil]

and every pressing of every record from every company varies in make up, thickness and material make up. Isnt this why the whole remastered industry began?
Not buying the arguement and cassettes have nothing at all to do with streaming as they are tape and analog

Read the comments on Paul’ YouTube video. I’ve read the first 50 comments or so and many are saying, correctly, in my view, that it comes down to what file is being streamed— not the streaming process itself. The CD file and the streamed file are often not the same, so how are you supposed to compare them? Remasters are often terrible. Remasters are sometimes better.

I don’t see how Paul’s focus on data size compression makes any sense. Is he saying that the files that Qobuz says are red book or higher definition are being delivered to their subscribers in a lower definition file? That sounds like something that would be open to a class action lawsuit.

It would certainly be a good thing if the streaming services could provide the provenance of the files. Then we could have a much better understanding why one file sounds crappy and another sounds great.

But all in all, it’s pretty easy to avoid the bad stuff. Listen for the first 10 seconds. If it’s bad, move on to something that sounds good. It’s a truly marvelous smorgasbord for a music lover. Just avoid the moldy cheese.

 

[Elliot G.]

Read the comments on Paul’ YouTube video. I’ve read the first 50 comments or so and many are saying, correctly, in my view, that it comes down to what file is being streamed— not the streaming process itself. The CD file and the streamed file are often not the same, so how are you supposed to compare them? Remasters are often terrible. Remasters are sometimes better.

I don’t see how Paul’s focus on data size compression makes any sense. Is he saying that the files that Qobuz says are red book or higher definition are being delivered to their subscribers in a lower definition file? That sounds like something that would be open to a class action lawsuit.

It would certainly be a good thing if the streaming services could provide the provenance of the files. Then we could have a much better understanding why one file sounds crappy and another sounds great.

But all in all, it’s pretty easy to avoid the bad stuff. Listen for the first 10 seconds. If it’s bad, move on to something that sounds good. It’s a truly marvelous smorgasbord for a music lover. Just avoid the moldy cheese.

I am sure I can find out exactlyu what Qobuz sends as I am close with them and I will ask.
Like every source the quality is not the same since the recording are all different asweallrealize. Garbage in Garbage out whether its a record, tape, CD orfile.You can see on Roon what you get BTW

 

[Elliot G.]

I am sure I can find out exactlyu what Qobuz sends as I am close with them and I will ask.
Like every source the quality is not the same since the recording are all different asweallrealize. Garbage in Garbage out whether its a record, tape, CD orfile.You can see on Roon what you get BTW

I just spoke to Qobuz through my friend David Solomon. Qobuz compressesNOTHING. ALl the music they get is from the labels and or rights holders and they do nothing to it at all. Thatis not to say that these files are all perfect and that none could have had some issues bneforesending them but only they do NOTHING. If they get reports of issues with the files they will go in and remover, replace, fix whatever is required on the service.
I say again that with Roon you can see the product and what it is.
I am not speaking of what Mr. McGowen says but only what I have gotten directly from Qobuz and my own experience with files that I have made or received.

 

[Amir]

Properly setup Good audio systems show us more contrast between formats (plz check Audionote UK peter article about comparison by contrast), when you compare stream vs CD then the first important thing is how those two formats (stream vs CD) are different in your system.
If you hear less than 10% difference between two formats (stream vs CD) then your system is not so transparent and your test is not valid.
if you hear more than 30% difference then your judgment will be more close to truth.

I think in a transparent system the CEC TL0 3.0 CD transport easily beats all streamers .

Good file/stream playback systems like wadax are not cheap and finally we do not get better sound than CD at the same price level.

 

[andromedaaudio]

I think the whole issue is not necessarily the format but its how it is being recorded
Its the recording quality of all formats which determines the outcome , the tape record or CD is just a medium
In a rough estimate i think i can say 2/3 rd of what i bought be it tape records or CDs is just not well recorded
2/3 to a 1/4 is very good recorded and that goes for all formats .
Just because its tape and costs 300 euro per reel doesnt mean it automatically sounds good

 

[Audire]

IMO it 5akws some $

For those who prefer the sonic experience of streaming to physical CDs played on transports, how much does one need to invest, and what products must one buy and assemble? Are we talking about Wadax level or Taiko Extreme or something a bit more pedestrian? Do all the cables and power supplies need to be carefully chosen and optimized for a particular system/location context, or can one say spend $30K and buy a list of stuff, put it all together and be set?

I'd like to read from those who advocate for streaming and better understand what is required to create a listening experience that they prefer to other digital alternatives.

IMO. it takes some $ to have a serious CD playback system that gets near vInyl.

I had a Luxman D08-u (and many others before) and the playback was good, but it wasn’t vinyl. However, when we switched to the EMM TX2 Transport things drastically improved. I’d say it’s at 90% of our vinyl with the EMM Pre and DA2V2 DAC. It’s really very good.

However, I heard the Vitus MP-201 Mk II and it is 98% or so of our vinyl on most comparisons with a Vitus Signature Line Stage. And depending on the DAC (so far we enjoy the Ideon Absolute E + Time the best, but we haven’t heard the Lampi Horizon yet) it may be equal to our Vinyl, or even exceed it. I won’t know until everything is hooked up for a while. But my initial impression is it will be right there with our vinyl. And we are getting the MP Line Stage, not the Signature, so we’re expecting another level improvement there as well.

Our streaming is exceptional. We use the Aurender N30SA, which IMO a year ago sounded better than Taiko Extreme to us. However, Taiko has made several improvements since then so I may be of a different opinion after hearing it again.

Overall though I enjoy our CDs more than streaming Qobuz (192 kHz/24 bit) or Tidal (384 kHz/24 bit) or even playing back ripped CDs (which I also like more than Tidal or Qobuz). I hear more depth and detail. And something about Tidal / Qobuz streaming just seems a little lacking, not sure what. It shouldn't be this way but CDs just sound more real the majority of the time. While I’ve come to enjoy the sound of Tidal more than Qobuz (but hate their rap emphasis, but Tidal playback is normally superior on what I enjoy listening to, female vocals, jazz, soft rock) on most songs (not all) I still enjoy the CD playback better at this point. I’m sure some of it is nostalgia …

By the time I add our Line Stage, DAC, and Transport together I’m 160-180k (Depending on the DAC we choose). Of course the Line Stage and DAC is used with streaming as well. A good Transport like the Vitus MP or the Kalista Dream Play X only runs 40-70k. Out of these two we enjoy the Vitus the most.