More Consensus That Streaming Is An Inferior Format & Not High End?

[godofwealth]

As someone who’s spent his entire professional life in the computer industry, I can tell you one thing for sure: the future is stranger than you can imagine! When I started programming computers in the late 1970s, I was using punched cards and writing code in Fortran (for young Turks out there, Fortran is one of the first high level languages, which stands for “formula translation“ and still highly used in high end scientific computation). Now, I lead a team of high powered computer scientists in one of the world’s largest software companies in the San Francisco Bay Area, some with Ivy league math PhDs, overseeing some of the largest data deployments in the world running on data centers all over the world. Let’s just say almost anything you do on the web in terms of shopping goes through our data centers. Hundreds of petabytes of data every day sloshes through our servers and we look for trends in this gigantic pool of e-commerce. Kind of like finding needles in the world‘s largest haystack!

And yet things are changing so fast in my world — the web is about to undergo a massive transformation with deep generative models enabled by AI technology running at unimaginable scales. Here in San Francisco, Open AI’s transformative chatGPT is an example of how high powered AI technology will change our world forever. In the not too distant future, you’ll be “chatting” with your music server, let’s call it “chatRoon“ that will contain within it a massive deep generative model of the entire world’s music and synthesize any music you want depending on your mood. You could “whistle“ a tune to it, and it will riff on that melody the entire evening, generating endless novel variants. Say bye bye to your old fashioned music collections stored on, hard drives, SSDs and other quaint 2023 technology. There’s no need for such old fashioned storage devices. It will recall or synthesize any music you desire. The interface to such a system will look nothing like Roon. It will be quite bizarre to our current mindset, but one the next generation will find entirely natural. They’ll wonder at how quaint our world was with ”albums” and ”tracks“.

 

[godofwealth]

As an example, I’m listening right now to this wonderful album by Jimmy Giuffre, perfect late night jazz with a glass of wonderful Napa/Sonoma red wine at my side. Powered by generative AI technology, we now know how to take all of Jimmy’s albums and endlessly riff on his melodies. We can converse with “chatRoon” asking it to ”imagine” if Giuffre had recorded an album with John Coltrane or Duke Ellington, what it might have sounded like? The truly scary thing is we know how to do this. It will take a few years for the technology to be rolled out to everyone. I imagine musicians might not be too thrilled.

 

[matthias]

I have owned the CEC TL 3.0 transport for several years now, and can comment. I also have the Lampizator server and Pacific DAC (I realize Taiko Extreme and Lampi Horizon offer higher performance at a substantial price increase).

Comparing physical media playback vs streaming is an issue beaten to death and I doubt any arguments made by one camp will convince folks on the other. I keep my physical media (over 5000 CDs collected over 35+ years) because using the TL0 transport into the Pacific, they sound extremely good, but more importantly they offer me peace of mind that my playlist will not disappear.

Streaming requires juggling a completely different set of parameters from disc playback. To my engineering brain, neither one is simple, but disc playback is a simpler problem. Streaming requires optimizing a huge set of parameters, most of which you have no control over. Streaming will get better over time. It’s like CD players were in the 1980s. We are at the Model T stage.

CD playback has been refined over four decades. It’s a more mature system. Even more important to me is that it’s a frozen standard. CDs are defined by the Sony/Philips Redbook standard, like vinyl is defined by the RIAA standard. Streaming by its nature is infinitely flexible. There’s already dozens of variations of bitrate and depth and time will only increase that choice. That makes designing a streaming solution much more challenging. Roon also does data mining of users. I assume they’ll have advertisements at some point. Netflix has gone down that path. Everyone who offers an online service eventually discovers ads are a great way to generate more revenue. Roon would be crazy not to exploit its platform for ads. Even paid services like Amazon Prime serve ads. Amazon made over 30 billion dollars from ads. I don’t have to worry about ads with CD playback!

As with everyone else, I enjoy streaming Qobuz via Roon and it’s hard to beat the convenience of streaming. But Qobuz and Roon might disappear tomorrow. My CDs have been with me 35+ years and that gives me assurance that my lifetime of music will not disappear into the ether. I hope Qobuz and Roon survive. Time will tell.

I completely understand your POV.
The quoted passage was my answer to an incorrect calculation (IMHO) in another post.

Matt

 

[Gregadd]

"Comparing physical media playback vs streaming is an issue beaten to death"[text omitted] godofwealth
Apparently not, because here we are. Does this mean we are beating the proverbial dead horse?
The problem with the comparison is that digital marches on while CD is a time capsule.

 

[hopkins]

"Comparing physical media playback vs streaming is an issue beaten to death"[text omitted] godofwealth
Apparently not, because here we are. Does this mean we are beating the proverbial dead horse?
The problem with the comparison is that digital marches on while CD is a time capsule.

If digital were really marching on it would make the difference between CD/local files/streaming irrelevant from a sound quality perspective

 

[Amir]

the Wadax server is 65000.
You have taken your opinion on the transport , made a bet which didnt happen and then quoted your opinion as a fact.
I have no issue with your opinion but when you dont have the gear and have not done this you REALLY do not know you are assuming .

Roy Gregory Review :

Wadax Reference Server and Akasa Optical Interface – Part 2 - Gy8

What comes out… (once you add the Reference Power Supply)

gy8.eu

Wadax Reference DAC and twin external power supplies – $157,000 USD

Wadax Reference Server – $64,900 USD

Wadax Reference Power supply – $49,000 USD

Wadax Akasa Reference Optical Interfaces and connection – $19,240 USD

Wadax Akasa Reference DC leads – $19,800 USD (1m) ea.
You’ll need two DC cables for the Ref DAC and another for the Ref Power Supply (Standard DC leads are also available, at $1,200 ea.)

 

[Gregadd]

If digital were really marching on it would make the difference between CD/local files/streaming irrelevant from a sound quality perspective

IMO the difference is dramatic. Streaming s vastly superior to CD. The only reason to beat this dead horse is an intellectual exercise. What the CD would sound like if CD contained todays digital format and took adavantage of current dacs? But why bother? I suppose if you have a massive CD collection it might be worthwhile. At the moment streaming is so inexpensive. Remember when CD was $17-18 a pop?
YMMV

 

[Gregadd]

19 pages????? And that is part 2. Come on Roy can't anybody get to the point anymore?

 

[Amir]

please read Roy Gregory Review , It is very informative for most of us.

Roy Gregory wrote :
page 8 :
if file replay or streaming sounded better than optical disc, that said a lot more about your disc player than it did about file replay.

page10 :
Many of the higher-resolution PCM files I have sampled are musically disappointing. Many are musically eclipsed by the lower resolution, downloadable alternatives. Nearly all of them are bettered by optical disc versions of the same recording.

Page 11:
The problem facing streamed music is that so much of its error is concentrated in the time domain, meaning that musical pattern and expression are the first things that are eroded. As the level of noise increases – and any signal that isn’t exactly where and when it should be is just noise – it quickly masks the music that remains. It’s why so many streamers sound flat, sterile and bleached, as harmonically bereft as they are bereft of human agency.

page 12 :
We simply have no control over or knowledge of either the original location of the file we are listening to or the route by which it reached our network. There is also no guarantee that listening to the same material twice, even in quick succession, you will be listening to the same data, drawn from the same storage location and arriving by the same route. It makes drawing firm conclusions regarding musical quality something of a lottery. It also makes for a far more impressionistic review process – something that seems to have passed both hi-res dogma and our more deterministic digital brethren by.

page 13:
But what about the specifics of the Reference Streamer’s performance? In use it quickly becomes clear that the practical variables are all too audible. Listen to a chosen track, swap out to a different piece and then return to the original and you’ll generally encounter a significant difference in sound quality, most notably dynamic range, transparency and presence. At its best, streamed music can get awfully close to the sound of locally stored files. But at the other end of the spectrum (and played via an identical replay chain) the results are a pale imitation of the robust, dynamic and explosive sound of streaming at its best. For casual listening, this is much less of a problem, but when it comes to critical musical appreciation, all too often streaming can disappoint – at least when compared to physical or permanently stored media.

 

[Kal Rubinson]

please read Roy Gregory Review , It is very informative for most of us.

Roy Gregory wrote :
page 8 :
if file replay or streaming sounded better than optical disc, that said a lot more about your disc player than it did about file replay.

page10 :
Many of the higher-resolution PCM files I have sampled are musically disappointing. Many are musically eclipsed by the lower resolution, downloadable alternatives. Nearly all of them are bettered by optical disc versions of the same recording.

Page 11:
The problem facing streamed music is that so much of its error is concentrated in the time domain, meaning that musical pattern and expression are the first things that are eroded. As the level of noise increases – and any signal that isn’t exactly where and when it should be is just noise – it quickly masks the music that remains. It’s why so many streamers sound flat, sterile and bleached, as harmonically bereft as they are bereft of human agency.

page 12 :
We simply have no control over or knowledge of either the original location of the file we are listening to or the route by which it reached our network. There is also no guarantee that listening to the same material twice, even in quick succession, you will be listening to the same data, drawn from the same storage location and arriving by the same route. It makes drawing firm conclusions regarding musical quality something of a lottery. It also makes for a far more impressionistic review process – something that seems to have passed both hi-res dogma and our more deterministic digital brethren by.

page 13:
But what about the specifics of the Reference Streamer’s performance? In use it quickly becomes clear that the practical variables are all too audible. Listen to a chosen track, swap out to a different piece and then return to the original and you’ll generally encounter a significant difference in sound quality, most notably dynamic range, transparency and presence. At its best, streamed music can get awfully close to the sound of locally stored files. But at the other end of the spectrum (and played via an identical replay chain) the results are a pale imitation of the robust, dynamic and explosive sound of streaming at its best. For casual listening, this is much less of a problem, but when it comes to critical musical appreciation, all too often streaming can disappoint – at least when compared to physical or permanently stored media.E

Reminds me why I could never enjoy reading him.............

 

[Amir]

Reminds me why I could never enjoy reading him.............

)

I do not read stereophile/TAS/6moon/... and between Reviewers I only send email to Roy and we have some conversation about Audio. I think Roy is more on Audiophile side and less on Industry side.
I think Roy is also an expert audiophile.

 

[Amir]

Roy Gregory:
Despite those who feel that streamed music is the answer to the world, the universe and everything, it simply ain’t so.


If Roy prefer high quality file (24bit/88khz playing on Wadax) to most 16/44.1 CD transports then we should care about two things:
First - real high quality high rez files are rare and most high rez files are not better than 16bit/44.1khz
Second - wadax server is very expensive and most other streamers are not as good as Wadax

Finally I pay for CD and Vinyl and do not sell my Collection

 

[andromedaaudio]

I just type in choir gent cathedral or organ cathedral bruege and i get as much versions as i want .
Or great spanish guitar music .
Nothing wrong with you tube steaming you do have to search for good recordings like with all mediums .

 

[rando]

I just type in choir gent cathedral or organ cathedral bruege and i get as much versions as i want .
Or great spanish guitar music .
Nothing wrong with you tube steaming you do have to search for good recordings like with all mediums .

There are some very low resolution videos you can absolutely tell someone who understood audio capture was involved in.

Sometimes the current build of YT processing does better than others with uploads, new or old. Sometimes the magic is a little too real or disappears. Same as a minor system change even if it comes at the level of acres filled with servers.

 

[andromedaaudio]

In absolute terms i dont think its worse then CD .
At least on you tube i can switch in a second without cost and search for a better version.
I have a about 60 % of my CD s that i never play because the recording is crap.
Same goes for most of the tapes i bought.
But if the tape recording is top notch tape has the edge

 

[MarkusBarkus]

...after a couple of years of occasional streaming, and many digital purchases from Qobuz and Native DSD, I recently visited the local music shop to pick up a few CDs to add to my collection. It was very pleasant. The shop is huge and funky. I forgot how much I missed browsing around there.

Three take-aways/reminders:
1) My Luxman SACD player sounds awesome, if the recording has the goods.
2) Ripping used CDs, purchased for about 5 bucks each can be a double-win: I get the physical media alternative back-up and the files!
3) Digital files and streaming, while super-convenient, are missing a cool aspect of the hobby experience: browsing among other humans.

BTW: we are really lucky around here, as records and CDs are plentiful. And shops have made it fun to visit: live music, drinks, goofy nic-nacs. Not everyone's cup of fur, but it pulls in people from all walks of life.

 

[Gregadd]

Roy Gregory:
Despite those who feel that streamed music is the answer to the world, the universe and everything, it simply ain’t so.


I[text omitted]

Finally I pay for CD and Vinyl and do not sell my Collection

Is not that I strawman? No one said. Remember the op is an attack on streaming and no9t cd..
By all means do not sell your vinyl or your CD. Enjoy.

 

[Al M.]

IMO the difference is dramatic. Streaming s vastly superior to CD. The only reason to beat this dead horse is an intellectual exercise. What the CD would sound like if CD contained todays digital format and took adavantage of current dacs? But why bother? I suppose if you have a massive CD collection it might be worthwhile. At the moment streaming is so inexpensive. Remember when CD was $17-18 a pop?
YMMV

Your point about streaming being vastly superior to CD doesn't become any more true the more, and each time more aggressively, you repeat it. Others obviously have different experiences regarding the issue.

please read Roy Gregory Review , It is very informative for most of us.

Roy Gregory wrote :

Page 11:
As the level of noise increases – and any signal that isn’t exactly where and when it should be is just noise – it quickly masks the music that remains. It’s why so many streamers sound flat, sterile and bleached, as harmonically bereft as they are bereft of human agency.

(Emphasis added.)

Perfectly formulated by Roy Gregory. He knows what he is talking about. I would add that the term "plasticky" comes to mind when I think about typical streaming sound.

But not all streaming. It *can* be done right, but that is hard to do and/or expensive.

Yet the idea that any halfway decent streaming (even if it is "hi-res") beats any CD through physical CD transport is just silly. A good CD transport is very hard to beat, *especially* when coupled with a great reclocking system between transport and DAC, in order to reduce jitter.

 

[bryans]

I think Roy is also an expert audiophile.

Can you please explain what an expert audiophile is?

 

[andromedaaudio]

Can you please explain what an expert audiophile is?

Lol

An expert audiophile / reviewer is someone who likes the same sound as you do.