More Consensus That Streaming Is An Inferior Format & Not High End?

[microstrip]

Fransisco, which format sounds best to you when making your subjective comparisons?

In general I preferred tape, although sometimes bass reproduction was better from digital and one or two tapes were noisier than the digital. This was done some time ago, as my tapes and Studer A80's are now packed for moving and the XLF's are gone. BTW, some times the comparison was not carried with streaming, but with HiRez downloads.

Please note I am not the type of audiophile who makes systematic listening comparisons with a note book and a pencil. I listen to both systems and create a listening opinion along time - just my opinion. I use tape for calibrating my ears for a specific sound - for such purpose I only use the standard electronics of the A80, not the Bottlehead more spacious tube tape preamplifier.

But again IMHO what is relevant in streaming debating is comparing streaming with downloads and CD. Comparing apples with apples. Digital is a different beast from analog.

 

[Blackmorec]

I had to edit my comments as this sort of struck me as odd. Why not. Why would a well tuned digital and well tuned vinyl system not produce the exact same sound. It they don't, that says to me, one or the other is inaccurate. I feel if a exact copy of the master were to go to Qobuz and the exact same master went to a vinyl plant, my stereo should product the exact same musical recreation. If not, something is off in one or the other of my sources. If it is a matter of the masters are not the same then the conversation of one media performing better than another becomes very convoluted.

I would be willing to send the albums to someone to compare. If they feel it makes a difference. Of course, are the mastering actually different. It just turns out they are incredibly sonically similar when play to each other. I have no idea. Not unless Gary knows more about the album from mastering to pressing in all formats.

Thing is, whoever listened would need to have a system a lot better than yours, otherwise any system deficiencies will increase any differences in formats by moving both further away from perfection

 

[wil]

I attended our Audio Club meeting last weekend. I won an auction on an album Trio Palabras - Lo Que Dice Mi Cantar. Gary Koh donated the albums and said this was a very good recording.

Today I am listening to some new amps that have about 200 hours on them and are running 24x7. I also have my new Lino Channel D 3.3 phono stage in play. I was very happy with the performance all around. I was admiring how good my vinyl plays now. Its the best it has ever been. New Aidas Durawood cartride analysed by Wally Tools. I'm very happy with it all. Of course I have to see how much better it all plays than my digital, so I find the album on Qobuz and queue up the song I am listening too and do a compare. I could not tell the difference between the two. From bass to treble. From dynamics and quiet. Soundstage. If you blindfolded me, I would not know one from the other. They were basically identical.
For all my adamant beliefs that streaming just can't match my vinyl, that streaming is limited to files on a hard drive, here is an album that breaks my belief system.

So just how wrong are my beliefs that digital and vinyl are different. That one may or may not be better than the other. That streaming no less is inferior to other media. This is a simple test of streamed Qobuz to vinyl. My beliefs failed on this test. Does it really all come down to source material. We did this same test with National Wake - Walk in Africa 1979-81 years back. We did it on a well tuned $300K system in a nice room. Joe Pitman was there. Non of us could tell the vinyl from the stream. That was a Kuzma table/Boulder pre to Brinkman DAC/Aurender.

It makes me wonder if these conversations are based upon totally false opinions as no one knows the source material they are listening too. We know this is true with streamed. What sort of information is on a CD jacket. Does it have the details on what the date of that particular CD is. Was it remastered. Where it was made. And we have almost no understanding of what was done different between the record and the CD, or digital file folder. We might all be going around and around and all be completely ignorant to the truth because we have no way to validate the source.

My experience is that the source material is by far the most important factor in sound quality and musical engagement. After that, the most important factor is one’s mental state. Are you relaxed, rested, focused?

While it’s frustrating that recording quality is all over the place, verging on random and impossible to predict, at least with streaming one can easily reject the bad and find the good without a lot of time or money invested in the search.

 

[PeterA]

In general I preferred tape, although sometimes bass reproduction was better from digital and one or two tapes were noisier than the digital. This was done some time ago, as my tapes and Studer A80's are now packed for moving and the XLF's are gone. BTW, some times the comparison was not carried with streaming, but with HiRez downloads.

Please note I am not the type of audiophile who makes systematic listening comparisons with a note book and a pencil. I listen to both systems and create a listening opinion along time - just my opinion. I use tape for calibrating my ears for a specific sound - for such purpose I only use the standard electronics of the A80, not the Bottlehead more spacious tube tape preamplifier.

But again IMHO what is relevant in streaming debating is comparing streaming with downloads and CD. Comparing apples with apples. Digital is a different beast from analog.

Yes I agree and I was hoping you would restrict your comments to streaming versus CD.

 

[Lagonda]

Thing is, whoever listened would need to have a system a lot better than yours, otherwise any system deficiencies will increase any differences in formats by moving both further away from perfection

I do also judge peoples opinions on what equipment they have listed in their profile, you should list your gear, so we know on what basis to judge yours !

 

[rando]

We are now somewhat ignorant of the truth because the high-end audio community does not invest in searching it. Using software tools sound engineers can know if digital recordings are the same or different and we could select recordings of equal content for evaluation.
Qobuz sells the same files they stream. Just look at the SACD community - they created a site and shared valuable information about SACD's during many years.

From a more youthful perspective might arise the low worth of setting about to slowly and methodically conduct examinations of streaming content. In time I think your outlook on the correct response by active hobbyist consumers and subscribers will take on a far different complexion.

US Qobuz has stated they add somewhere around 10K albums daily. The other country specific sites with mature catalogs are each a separate entity in this regard. I promise that the amount of resubmitted or altered files is a legal and contractual matter none of the involved parties in any of these countries are likely to share openly*. Fairly significant movement hourly is a safe estimate. Not only is water falling down the mountain. It is being routinely recaptured and replaced with other water that doesn't necessarily fall into the same place.

Ignorance is less the case than a slew of other words that come to mind. As part of this wider topic I'd encourage you to perform only a moments glance at the subject of (music category) videos taken down from YT under (automated) legal threat produced by software tools (bots). Unquestioned instantaneous removal without repercussion to claimant following months of deliberate work on the part of accused proving beyond doubt legal ownership of uploaded content. In a matter of months to years the automated response of a digital finger will finally respond a command to lift. Having comprised the full load of exertion on their part it is no doubt lazy in any movements beyond resting heavily.


*Dylan sermonizing from atop the mount(ain of cash yet to push his head cloudward far enough) to officiate over the stoppage of his drop of nectar.

 

[rando]

I do also judge peoples opinions on what equipment they have listed in their profile, you should list your gear, so we know on what basis to judge yours !

Sir, does that receive a digital signal? Streaming?

 

[Lagonda]

Sir, does that receive a digital signal? Streaming?

As you see, i am ultimately listening trough horns ! And i am a analog guy, no built in streaming !

 

[microstrip]

Yes I agree and I was hoping you would restrict your comments to streaming versus CD.

In fact I did in previous posts about streaming. If you had read my full posts, not just what you quoted, I only referred to tape to make a difference between comparing to vinyl - that I called a "loose standard" and tape, that is at the direct origin of analog sourced streaming files. Sorry if was not clear for you.

Anyway, I think that the tour the force in the streaming debate is the post by Emile (Taiko Audio) confirming that streaming is bit exact in another thread.

 

[Alrainbow]

This thread while has many great points is why I move away from serious listening most times
If I just be hyper critical I’m never happy and to add to it how do I know it’s correct over all. I do very much appreciate a good home system or even a well done setup at shows.
But as I use ear buds , headphones and ciems as well as speakers the truth is very complex. moods to me have profound differences in me loving it or being disappointed
At the gym just using high quality ciems or even Bluetooth gives me chills and emotion just as much as shows or homes. Maybe I’m just too tired of chasing things. I do enjoy reading others journeys but I’m doing my best to just get pleased and not on an ever changing journey.

 

[Kingrex]

This thread while has many great points is why I move away from serious listening most times
If I just be hyper critical I’m never happy and to add to it how do I know it’s correct over all. I do very much appreciate a good home system or even a well done setup at shows.
But as I use ear buds , headphones and ciems as well as speakers the truth is very complex. moods to me have profound differences in me loving it or being disappointed
At the gym just using high quality ciems or even Bluetooth gives me chills and emotion just as much as shows or homes. Maybe I’m just too tired of chasing things. I do enjoy reading others journeys but I’m doing my best to just get pleased and not on an ever changing journey.

I totally get it Al. I sat down to listen to my new phono stage, and to see if a new record cleaning process worked. I was agitated at the beginning. I wanted to bounce. After a couple songs I vibrated out of listening. Then I put a TRX workout on the TV with the TV volume muted and the stereo running. I did a half hour workout. After that I sat down and my mood was completely different. I became very absorbed in the music. Since its a new phono stage, I decided to put a set of footers under it and listen. Then I sat in wonderment through 3 album sides. Totally engrossed. That is the best type of listening. When your just there with the music.

 

[PYP]

I attended our Audio Club meeting last weekend. I won an auction on an album Trio Palabras - Lo Que Dice Mi Cantar. Gary Koh donated the albums and said this was a very good recording.

Today I am listening to some new amps that have about 200 hours on them and are running 24x7. I also have my new Lino Channel D 3.3 phono stage in play. I was very happy with the performance all around. I was admiring how good my vinyl plays now. Its the best it has ever been. New Aidas Durawood cartride analysed by Wally Tools. I'm very happy with it all. Of course I have to see how much better it all plays than my digital, so I find the album on Qobuz and queue up the song I am listening too and do a compare. I could not tell the difference between the two. From bass to treble. From dynamics and quiet. Soundstage. If you blindfolded me, I would not know one from the other. They were basically identical.

Thanks for mentioning the album. Very enjoyable. In my own setup, most 24 bit files add more depth which, for me, increases the illusion of being with the musicians.

 

[Kingrex]

Im sitting here listening to it right now. It has sort of grown on me. You know, this thread has helped me realize both my vinyl and digitql are quite good. I have no idea where Paul got the idea Streaming is not high end. I might have to look hard for files that sound really good if I want quality sound. And I am a little tired of so many albums I like falling out of the Qobuz catalog. But there are plenty more that pop up to look through and play.

 

[Gregadd]

I am still waiting for Paul to tell us what streaming does to digital to make it inferior to a demonstrably inferior format (CD). I am not sure, but I think he promised us that. You know since he is an expert, I would expect more than inuendo.
At least he goes a little further than Bob who thinks we should suffer more to enjoy his music. I think his raspy voice and limited guitar playing skill is burden enough.
Oops I think I am getting cranky.

 

[Kingrex]

Aren't we sort of finding that all sources have their challenges. But if you pay attention to details, they are all excellent.
Are some possibly more than different than others and possibly better. Maybe. But if your at a place of questioning is it different or better, then they are all high end.

I think Paul has interesting things to say at times. Usually he has a good point. He slipped this time and didn't think his subject through.

 

[PYP]

Was listening this morning to Biréli Lagrène's Solo Suites album (Qobuz via Roon in 96/24 resolution). As I listened to his first composition, Memories, I thought: Yes, that is exactly what it is. Got completely carried by the music, by this talented musician speaking through his guitar (as he has for more than 50 years).

I wasn't thinking that streaming sucks or that this album had somehow slipped through the conspiracy to limit bandwidth for the sake of capitalism or that I wished my critical listening skills were better so that I could understand how badly streaming sucks. No, I was thinking how fortunate we are to be able to have access to music, in our homes whenever we have the desire (internet and local ISP willing ).

Within Roon, I then read two different short biographies and noticed that the available discography included 34 of his albums to explore (starting in 1983) as well as five collaborations and 27 appearances.

 

[Gregadd]

Was listening this morning to Biréli Lagrène's Solo Suites album (Qobuz via Roon in 96/24 resolution). As I listened to his first composition, Memories, I thought: Yes, that is exactly what it is. Got completely carried by the music, by this talented musician speaking through his guitar (as he has for more than 50 years).

I wasn't thinking that streaming sucks or that this album had somehow slipped through the conspiracy to limit bandwidth for the sake of capitalism or that I wished my critical listening skills were better so that I could understand how badly streaming sucks. No, I was thinking how fortunate we are to be able to have access to music, in our homes whenever we have the desire (internet and local ISP willing ).

Within Roon, I then read two different short biographies and noticed that the available discography included 34 of his albums to explore (starting in 1983) as well as five collaborations and 27 appearances.]emphasis supplied]

Better get started. You've got work to do.

 

[Blackmorec]

Just some more thoughts, this time about the whole network. Essentially the network is part of my hi-fi system built to take internet feed out of the wall and play it as a highly rewarding piece of music of as high a calibre as possible. As possible. That’s my hobby. Listening to digital music and gradually improving its replay quality. So what role does the network play in that? In a word huge. And that huge is a massive variable…..it can range from enormously positive to fairly negative, depending on how its set up and managed. Even a bad network will sound OK in the ‘not very pleased’ sense , so to follow this advice, you need to really want better quality music. The problem with a network is that it was never designed to work with music and especially not high-end music. Move data around easily, fast, reliably and as cheaply as possible was basically the goals the industry very successfully pursued. If the network had been built for audio, it would be far more refined for a very simple reason….the Physical Layer of the network has a massive overriding affect on the final sound of the music it is converted into. But whoever tested ‘final sound’ when developing networks? Of course no one. So it’s down to audiophiles who value music quality to manage their own networks’ physical layer in order to get the best sound. And I can promise that a fully optimized network is a pretty gorgeous thing to listen to. Every time I sit down and start a listening session I have the same reaction. The music is in my face, holy smoke too much? Hell no, the parts resolve, interact and fit together beautifully, revealing all the different elements of the music for my brain to reconstruct as a detailed, hugely spatial, hugely meaningful piece of music that wraps itself all around and throughout my conscious with no judging or evaluation going on. Just the music, everywhere. .

As I get the music stream closer to the target spec for the physical layer, with very little noise, jitter, vibration and perfect voltage polarity swings and other voltage waveforms, it communicates a much clearer picture of the music, with increased resolution such that mildly different related sounds don‘t combine and cause the music to lose meaning or sound not quite right by obscuring certain detail. When the network is super clean and refined, so is the music it produces. Chrystal clear, beautifully spatial, 4 dimensional music with a massive time component that translates to extremely funky pace, rhythm and timing.

 

[Thuan]

+1

So true, and very well said. Thank you.

 

[Kingrex]

Just some more thoughts, this time about the whole network. Essentially the network is part of my hi-fi system built to take internet feed out of the wall and play it as a highly rewarding piece of music of as high a calibre as possible. As possible. That’s my hobby. Listening to digital music and gradually improving its replay quality. So what role does the network play in that? In a word huge. And that huge is a massive variable…..it can range from enormously positive to fairly negative, depending on how its set up and managed. Even a bad network will sound OK in the ‘not very pleased’ sense , so to follow this advice, you need to really want better quality music. The problem with a network is that it was never designed to work with music and especially not high-end music. Move data around easily, fast, reliably and as cheaply as possible was basically the goals the industry very successfully pursued. If the network had been built for audio, it would be far more refined for a very simple reason….the Physical Layer of the network has a massive overriding affect on the final sound of the music it is converted into. But whoever tested ‘final sound’ when developing networks? Of course no one. So it’s down to audiophiles who value music quality to manage their own networks’ physical layer in order to get the best sound. And I can promise that a fully optimized network is a pretty gorgeous thing to listen to. Every time I sit down and start a listening session I have the same reaction. The music is in my face, holy smoke too much? Hell no, the parts resolve, interact and fit together beautifully, revealing all the different elements of the music for my brain to reconstruct as a detailed, hugely spatial, hugely meaningful piece of music that wraps itself all around and throughout my conscious with no judging or evaluation going on. Just the music, everywhere. .

As I get the music stream closer to the target spec for the physical layer, with very little noise, jitter, vibration and perfect voltage polarity swings and other voltage waveforms, it communicates a much clearer picture of the music, with increased resolution such that mildly different related sounds don‘t combine and cause the music to lose meaning or sound not quite right by obscuring certain detail. When the network is super clean and refined, so is the music it produces. Chrystal clear, beautifully spatial, 4 dimensional music with a massive time component that translates to extremely funky pace, rhythm and timing.

Do you have your modem and router on a stand? In short, are you utilizing vibration dampening? Do you mass load them? Do you find they want to be on a firm stand or floating. What about the ethernet cable. Do you do anything outside keeping it well away from any other cables.

My modem router and switch are in the basement. About at 15 foot ethernet from the switch to the server. They are feed very good power. Dedicated LPS to each and all those feed from a wall mount Torus transformer. But they have next to no attention to how they are mounted. The router is on a concrete wall. The modem sits on top of the data box. The switch is stuffed in the data box. I do use some compressed fiber insulation between the devices and what they sit on. So I am doing a little floating isolation. That's about it.