Most in US won't be able to escape 'fiscal cliff'

Our capitalistic system is based on people 'buying' stuff, whether it is inexpensive consumer goods, cars, from bare bones transportation to high end rides, appliances to fancy, expensive clothing and luxury goods , meals in restaurants,whether haute cuisine or the local joint, using services like landscapers, car services to airports, massages to health club facilities, etc. After the crash, people tightened their belts (I'm not ignoring the people that suffered foreclosures or lost massive amounts of money due to bad investments). Folks who have a lot of money can take advantage of opportunities, but the majority cannot, and the lack of demand creates a vicious cycle. Apple was kicking butt, partly because of the allure of the products, partly because everybody 'needed' a phone or laptop and partly because the products, pricewise, although expensive, were still within reach, compared to a new house or car or kitchen re-do. And, at least until recently, the luxury goods market seemed to be thriving- for those with lot's of money and nowhere better to put it -as we saw in the 'high-end' audio market, some folks may be ekking out an existence, but others seem to be able to buy pretty expensive gear.But, the engine that drives this economy is stalled. And as a result of the forced austerity suffered by the majority these last several years, I suspect most people now think twice about whether they really 'need' the next 'thing' or can defer it for a while.
I think the 'fiscal cliff' is still an abstraction until we see it's impact. Food prices have gone up, gasoline is expensive, and everything else is going to get more expensive as pay and jobs stagnate. The politicians are right about one thing: it is the middle class that is getting clobbered.
I can handle modest tax increases. I can't abide the waste of government. Or a pure welfare state. We need jobs, and a more aggressive approach to cutting health care costs. (Just one stupid example- I quit smoking, for health reasons, almost two years ago- I went to the Mayo Clinic in Rochester, Mn to do it, and they offer a residential, medically supervised program that is virtually unique. My insurance company refused to pay for it, despite the fact that the cost of my continuing to smoke would be far higher to them and to me in the long run).
 
The markets gained 81% in Obama's first term. He's not responsible for that, but he's not responsible for the current downturn either. And uncertainty over the looming fiscal cliff is only partially responsible.

We're not supposed to go over that cliff. It is steep, deep and jagged at the bottom by design, to force Congress to act. We'll see if they can act like anything but petulant children incapable of crafting a compromise to save us from falling back into deep recession. I still have hope. The electorate seems to get what they don't. Maybe they'll look down the road to the next election cycle and decide they might need to have something to show for their time in Washington besides driving straight into a disaster.

Tim
Tim, not trying to be a contrarian here, but the stock market is not a real reflection of real business and economic opportunity and growth.
 
-- ...And the stock markets represent the corruption and greed of corporations of the world. ...Falsely boosting stocks are good for some (many) people, and false speculation (falsification) and misrepresentation is the big game of that bull on Wall Street.
They reflect (stocks) just that; the bubble always 'pouf'.

* By the way, BP plaided guilty today, and with a fine of $4.5 billions.
That is peanuts for all the lives lost, jobs lost, and most importantly the immense damages done to our natural ecosystem (in the waters, in the air, and under ground).

** Another thing; there aren't really 'bad investments', but there are bad companies run by bad people. ...And very bad financial advices by greedy and corrupted financial advisors.
That's why honest and hard working people are losing all their life savings.

I got nothing against billionaires, as long as they make their billions working for the good of human kind.
 
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Good morning, gentlemen. This thread has had all of the recent off topic posts removed. The management team would like to remind you that comments that are personal in nature are not allowed and are a violation of the TOS. http://www.whatsbestforum.com/showthread.php?1207-Terms-Of-Service

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Tom
 
I thought I would like to get this thread going again as long as we can leave personal attacks out of the mix........

How the Fiscal Cliff May Affect Your Taxes

By Kay Bell | Bankrate.com

In a few weeks, tax laws U.S. taxpayers have enjoyed for more than a decade are scheduled to expire. Along with long-standing and historically low tax rates, several popular tax credits and deductions already have or will soon expire.

That scenario is being described as a fiscal cliff. And if American taxpayers are nudged over that cliff by Congressional inaction, most of them will face dramatically higher tax bills.

Estimates by tax policy groups and government accountants put the total tax cost at more than $500 billion in 2013.

That averages out to almost $3,500 per household, according to calculations by the Tax Policy Center. Middle-class taxpayers are likely to see an average increase of almost $2,000.

Using Tax Policy Center data and hypothetical taxpayers, Bankrate shows what some tax bills might look like if lawmakers don't soon put up a guardrail at the fiscal cliff's edge.

The single tax filer

Joe is single and has an adjusted gross income of $60,000 a year. As is the case among two-thirds of the tax-paying population, Joe claims the standard deduction.

After subtracting the projected 2013 personal exemption of $3,850 and standard deduction of $6,050 for a single taxpayer, Joe's taxable income comes to $50,100.

If the current tax laws are extended beyond 2012, that would mean $8,900 of Joe's income would be taxed at only 10 percent, and his top tax rate would be 25 percent. This would leave him with a tax liability of $8,465.

If the current rates expire, however, Joe's tax bill would be $863.50 higher.

The reason? There would no longer be a 10 percent rate, making more of Joe's earnings taxed at 15 percent, and his top tax rate would be 28 percent instead of 25 percent.

Married couple filing jointly

Jane and Bill have two kids: 10-year-old Jimmy and 8-year-old Sarah. Both parents work, bringing home a combined adjusted gross income of $175,000. They don't yet own a home, so without mortgage interest to deduct, they're still claiming the standard deduction.

If the current tax laws stay in place, their four personal exemptions totaling $15,400 plus the $12,100 standard deduction will get them to $147,500 in taxable income, resulting in a tax liability of $28,803.

But Jane and Bill wouldn't have to send the Internal Revenue Service that much. Thanks to the $1,000 per-child tax credit, their final tax bill would be $26,803.

If the tax laws expire, however, Jane and Bill's tax bill will go up by $6,304 to $33,107. That takes into account that the child tax credit would return to its pre-tax-cut level of just $500 per kid.

One reason for the increased tax bill is the return of the marriage tax penalty. This is where a couple pays more taxes by filing one joint return than they would if they filed two returns as single taxpayers. Wider tax brackets and a larger standard deduction for married couples now help ease the penalty.

Instead of facing a top tax rate of 28 percent, Jane and Bill would be in the 31 percent tax bracket if the tax cuts expire.

Single parent head of household

Kathryn is a divorced working mom of 7-year-old Jonah. She makes $75,000 a year via her salary and alimony payments.

By filing as head of household, Kathryn's standard deduction of $8,900 and personal exemptions totaling $7,700 for herself and her son get her to $58,400 in taxable income.

Taxes on that amount are currently collected at the 10 percent, 15 percent and 25 percent rates, giving Kathryn a tax bill of $9,125. She knocks $1,000 off that thanks to the child tax credit.

But if the tax cuts expire, Kathryn's tax liability will be $1,435 more -- $9,560 -- in 2013. The bigger bill comes from losing the expired 10 percent and 25 percent tax rates, putting more of her income into the 15 percent and 28 percent tax brackets.

And just like all parents, married or single, Kathryn will only get a $500 child tax credit for her son starting in 2013.

Expiration of capital gains rates

If any of our hypothetical 2013 taxpayers have investments in a taxable brokerage account, their tax bills next year will be higher.

Long-term capital gains and certain dividend payments are taxed at lower rates than the regular, ordinary income rates, which now top out at 35 percent. Most taxpayers pay capital gains taxes at the 15 percent rate. Taxpayers in the 10 percent and 15 percent brackets don't owe any taxes on their gains.

But if today 's lower rates expire, the capital gains rates will go to 20 percent for most investors and 10 percent for those in the 15 percent tax bracket.

And dividends will lose their favorable tax treatment entirely. These payments will return to being taxed as ordinary income, meaning that taxpayers making enough to put them into the highest income tax bracket in 2013 would pay taxes on dividends at the top 39.6 percent income tax rate.

In addition, a provision in the health care reform law, often referred to as Obamacare, will kick in next year. This new 3.8 percent surtax will apply to capital gains, dividend and interest income of more than $250,000 for married couples filing jointly or $200,000 for other taxpayers.

Payroll tax holiday over

Every person who collects a paycheck knows that taxes reduce take-home pay.

In addition to income taxes, both federal and where applicable state, payments toward Social Security and Medicare, known as FICA taxes, are collected via withholding.

So that workers would have more money to spend and give the economy a boost, Congress enacted a 2 percent cut in the Social Security taxes paid by workers. This so-called payroll tax holiday has been in effect since 2011 but is scheduled to expire Jan. 1, 2013.

That means every worker will pay more taxes in 2013. The increase could be substantial for high-income earners.

Individuals who make up to the Social Security wage base of $113,700 next year will pay $7,049.40 in taxes for the retirement system. That's $2,425 more than this year because the wage base was slightly smaller ($110,100), and workers paid just 4.2 percent of their income toward Social Security instead of the regular 6.2 percent level that returns in 2013.

Other expiring tax breaks

While the possibility of higher tax rates gets most of the attention as taxpayers near the fiscal cliff, many other provisions could cause higher taxes if they are allowed to end Jan. 1, 2013.

In addition to losing half of the current child tax credit, parents would get reduced savings from the child care tax credit.

Students looking for the $2,500 American opportunity education tax credit would find instead its predecessor the Hope credit, which maxes out at $1,800.

Lower paid workers could still claim the earned income tax credit, but eligibility requirements would be tougher and credit amounts lower.

The estate tax would apply to more property left at death, affecting estates worth more than $1 million instead of the current $5.12 million exclusion amount. The tax rate also would rise from the current 35 percent to 55 percent.

Higher-income taxpayers who itemize would again see their overall Schedule A claims reduced by 3 percent. A similar reduction also would apply to personal exemption amounts for wealthier filers.

And legislation to increase the alternative minimum tax income exclusion amount must be approved retroactively for 2012 as well as for 2013, or tens of millions more taxpayers will face higher tax bills because of this parallel tax.
 
What ObamaCare Means for Your Taxes

More good tax news:


What ObamaCare Means for Your Taxes
Bischoff: The sweeping health-care law, upheld today by the Supreme Court, includes changes for next year.

By BILL BISCHOFF

President Obama's Affordable Care Act, which was deemed constitutional Thursday by the Supreme Court, includes some major tax changes that will take effect next year. Here's a refresher course on how sweeping health-care reform will impact individual taxpayers like you.

Medicare Tax

Right now, the Medicare tax on salary and/or self-employment (SE) income is 2.9%. If you're an employee, 1.45% is withheld from your paychecks, and the other 1.45% is paid by your employer. If you're self-employed, you pay the whole 2.9% yourself.

Starting in 2013, an extra 0.9% Medicare tax will be charged on: (1) salary and/or SE income above $200,000 for an unmarried individual, (2) combined salary and/or SE income above $250,000 for a married joint-filing couple, and (3) salary and/or SE income above $125,000 for those who use married filing separate status. For self-employed individuals, the additional 0.9% Medicare tax hit will come in the form of a higher SE bill.

Medicare Tax on Investment Income

Right now, the maximum federal income tax rate on long-term capital gains and dividends is only 15%. Starting in 2013, the maximum rate on long-term gains is scheduled to go up to 20% and the maximum rate on dividends is scheduled to increase to 39.6% as the so-called Bush tax cuts expire.

But that's not all. Also starting in 2013, all or part of the net investment income, including long-term capital gains and dividends, collected by higher-income folks can get socked with an additional 3.8% "Medicare contribution tax." Therefore, the maximum federal rate on long-term gains for 2013 and beyond will actually be 23.8% (versus the current 15%) and the maximum rate on dividends will be a whopping 43.4% (versus the current 15%). Yikes!

The additional 3.8% Medicare tax will not apply unless your adjusted gross income (AGI) exceeds: (1) $200,000 if you're unmarried, (2) $250,000 if you're a married joint-filer, or (3) $125,000 if you use married filing separate status.

The additional 3.8% Medicare tax will apply to the lesser of your net investment income or the amount of AGI in excess of the applicable threshold. Net investment income includes interest, dividends, royalties, annuities, rents, income from passive business activities, income from trading in financial instruments or commodities, and gains from assets held for investment like stock and other securities. (Gains from assets held for business purposes are not subject to the extra tax.)

For example, a married joint-filing couple with AGI of $265,000 and $60,000 of net investment income would pay the 3.8% tax on $15,000 (the amount of excess AGI). If the same couple has AGI of $350,000, they would pay the 3.8% tax on $60,000 (the entire amount of their net investment income).

$2,500 Cap on Health-Care FSA Contributions

Right now, there's no tax-law limit on contributions to your employer's healthcare flexible spending account (FSA) plan (although many plan impose their own limits). Amounts you contribute to the FSA plan are subtracted from your taxable salary. Then you can use the funds to reimburse yourself tax-free to cover qualified medical expenses. Good deal! Starting in 2013, however, the maximum annual FSA contribution for each employee will be capped at only $2,500.

Higher Threshold for Itemized Medical Expense Deductions

Right now, you can claim an itemized deduction for medical expenses paid for you, your spouse, and your dependents, to the extent the expenses exceed 7.5% of AGI. Starting in 2013, the hurdle is raised to 10% of AGI. However, if either you or your spouse is age 65 or older at yearend, the 10%-of-AGI threshold will not take effect until 2017.
 
Taxes

I thought I would like to get this thread going again as long as we can leave personal attacks out of the mix........

How the Fiscal Cliff May Affect Your Taxes

By Kay Bell | Bankrate.com

In a few weeks, tax laws U.S. taxpayers have enjoyed for more than a decade are scheduled to expire. Along with long-standing and historically low tax rates, several popular tax credits and deductions already have or will soon expire.

That scenario is being described as a fiscal cliff. And if American taxpayers are nudged over that cliff by Congressional inaction, most of them will face dramatically higher tax bills.

Estimates by tax policy groups and government accountants put the total tax cost at more than $500 billion in 2013.

That averages out to almost $3,500 per household, according to calculations by the Tax Policy Center. Middle-class taxpayers are likely to see an average increase of almost $2,000.

Using Tax Policy Center data and hypothetical taxpayers, Bankrate shows what some tax bills might look like if lawmakers don't soon put up a guardrail at the fiscal cliff's edge.

The single tax filer

Joe is single and has an adjusted gross income of $60,000 a year. As is the case among two-thirds of the tax-paying population, Joe claims the standard deduction.

After subtracting the projected 2013 personal exemption of $3,850 and standard deduction of $6,050 for a single taxpayer, Joe's taxable income comes to $50,100.

If the current tax laws are extended beyond 2012, that would mean $8,900 of Joe's income would be taxed at only 10 percent, and his top tax rate would be 25 percent. This would leave him with a tax liability of $8,465.

If the current rates expire, however, Joe's tax bill would be $863.50 higher.

The reason? There would no longer be a 10 percent rate, making more of Joe's earnings taxed at 15 percent, and his top tax rate would be 28 percent instead of 25 percent.

Married couple filing jointly

Jane and Bill have two kids: 10-year-old Jimmy and 8-year-old Sarah. Both parents work, bringing home a combined adjusted gross income of $175,000. They don't yet own a home, so without mortgage interest to deduct, they're still claiming the standard deduction.

If the current tax laws stay in place, their four personal exemptions totaling $15,400 plus the $12,100 standard deduction will get them to $147,500 in taxable income, resulting in a tax liability of $28,803.

But Jane and Bill wouldn't have to send the Internal Revenue Service that much. Thanks to the $1,000 per-child tax credit, their final tax bill would be $26,803.

If the tax laws expire, however, Jane and Bill's tax bill will go up by $6,304 to $33,107. That takes into account that the child tax credit would return to its pre-tax-cut level of just $500 per kid.

One reason for the increased tax bill is the return of the marriage tax penalty. This is where a couple pays more taxes by filing one joint return than they would if they filed two returns as single taxpayers. Wider tax brackets and a larger standard deduction for married couples now help ease the penalty.

Instead of facing a top tax rate of 28 percent, Jane and Bill would be in the 31 percent tax bracket if the tax cuts expire.

Single parent head of household

Kathryn is a divorced working mom of 7-year-old Jonah. She makes $75,000 a year via her salary and alimony payments.

By filing as head of household, Kathryn's standard deduction of $8,900 and personal exemptions totaling $7,700 for herself and her son get her to $58,400 in taxable income.

Taxes on that amount are currently collected at the 10 percent, 15 percent and 25 percent rates, giving Kathryn a tax bill of $9,125. She knocks $1,000 off that thanks to the child tax credit.

But if the tax cuts expire, Kathryn's tax liability will be $1,435 more -- $9,560 -- in 2013. The bigger bill comes from losing the expired 10 percent and 25 percent tax rates, putting more of her income into the 15 percent and 28 percent tax brackets.

And just like all parents, married or single, Kathryn will only get a $500 child tax credit for her son starting in 2013.

Expiration of capital gains rates

If any of our hypothetical 2013 taxpayers have investments in a taxable brokerage account, their tax bills next year will be higher.

Long-term capital gains and certain dividend payments are taxed at lower rates than the regular, ordinary income rates, which now top out at 35 percent. Most taxpayers pay capital gains taxes at the 15 percent rate. Taxpayers in the 10 percent and 15 percent brackets don't owe any taxes on their gains.

But if today 's lower rates expire, the capital gains rates will go to 20 percent for most investors and 10 percent for those in the 15 percent tax bracket.

And dividends will lose their favorable tax treatment entirely. These payments will return to being taxed as ordinary income, meaning that taxpayers making enough to put them into the highest income tax bracket in 2013 would pay taxes on dividends at the top 39.6 percent income tax rate.

In addition, a provision in the health care reform law, often referred to as Obamacare, will kick in next year. This new 3.8 percent surtax will apply to capital gains, dividend and interest income of more than $250,000 for married couples filing jointly or $200,000 for other taxpayers.

Payroll tax holiday over

Every person who collects a paycheck knows that taxes reduce take-home pay.

In addition to income taxes, both federal and where applicable state, payments toward Social Security and Medicare, known as FICA taxes, are collected via withholding.

So that workers would have more money to spend and give the economy a boost, Congress enacted a 2 percent cut in the Social Security taxes paid by workers. This so-called payroll tax holiday has been in effect since 2011 but is scheduled to expire Jan. 1, 2013.

That means every worker will pay more taxes in 2013. The increase could be substantial for high-income earners.

Individuals who make up to the Social Security wage base of $113,700 next year will pay $7,049.40 in taxes for the retirement system. That's $2,425 more than this year because the wage base was slightly smaller ($110,100), and workers paid just 4.2 percent of their income toward Social Security instead of the regular 6.2 percent level that returns in 2013.

Other expiring tax breaks

While the possibility of higher tax rates gets most of the attention as taxpayers near the fiscal cliff, many other provisions could cause higher taxes if they are allowed to end Jan. 1, 2013.

In addition to losing half of the current child tax credit, parents would get reduced savings from the child care tax credit.

Students looking for the $2,500 American opportunity education tax credit would find instead its predecessor the Hope credit, which maxes out at $1,800.

Lower paid workers could still claim the earned income tax credit, but eligibility requirements would be tougher and credit amounts lower.

The estate tax would apply to more property left at death, affecting estates worth more than $1 million instead of the current $5.12 million exclusion amount. The tax rate also would rise from the current 35 percent to 55 percent.

Higher-income taxpayers who itemize would again see their overall Schedule A claims reduced by 3 percent. A similar reduction also would apply to personal exemption amounts for wealthier filers.

And legislation to increase the alternative minimum tax income exclusion amount must be approved retroactively for 2012 as well as for 2013, or tens of millions more taxpayers will face higher tax bills because of this parallel tax.


Thank you for this list of payments due. With all respect; The US are indebted as only the greeks are - have you recently read how much tax they will have to shoulder (once they got out of their tax diddling habits ;-)
I am afraid, your prospects look rather good and better in these comparisons!
Just thought, some context might be useful - I got the impression, that WBF is very US based in information.
 
Guess that depends on your POV.

I look at it as reigning the robber barons in.

Oh and impeding business is hogwash. Fact is that the country was in a depression and God himself probably couldn't have done a better job.

Look at the top seven CEOs who hate Obama and their company's profits doubled during Obama's first four year term.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/...b&src=sp&comm_ref=false#sb=3943885,b=facebook

Funny i was told it was god himself who was in charge and your correct everything doubled under Obama ....

:)
 
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-- ...And the stock markets represent the corruption and greed of corporations of the world. ...Falsely boosting stocks are good for some (many) people, and false speculation (falsification) and misrepresentation is the big game of that bull on Wall Street.
They reflect (stocks) just that; the bubble always 'pouf'.

* By the way, BP plaided guilty today, and with a fine of $4.5 billions.
That is peanuts for all the lives lost, jobs lost, and most importantly the immense damages done to our natural ecosystem (in the waters, in the air, and under ground).

** Another thing; there aren't really 'bad investments', but there are bad companies run by bad people. ...And very bad financial advices by greedy and corrupted financial advisors.
That's why honest and hard working people are losing all their life savings.

I got nothing against billionaires, as long as they make their billions working for the good of human kind.

Look deeper into the BP coup de etah , the real criminals are right in front of you , follow the money , look to Petrobras ..
 
Thank you for this list of payments due. With all respect; The US are indebted as only the greeks are - have you recently read how much tax they will have to shoulder (once they got out of their tax diddling habits ;-)
I am afraid, your prospects look rather good and better in these comparisons!
Just thought, some context might be useful - I got the impression, that WBF is very US based in information.

We are nowhere near the position of Greece , the situation is not even close, our president's golfing expenses exceeds Greece's GDP ....

:)
 
The Rich Will Pay More Taxes Next Year No Matter What

By Tami Luhby | CNNMoney.com

The rich will pay more in taxes next year regardless of the outcome of the fiscal cliff. That's because two new taxes enacted to fund President Obama's health care reform are kicking in come January.
The new levies will help foot the bill for the program to expand health care coverage for the uninsured, which involves government subsidies for lower- and middle-income Americans.
The vast majority of taxpayers will escape unscathed, however. Fewer than 2% will be subject to the new taxes, said Roberton Williams, a senior fellow at the Tax Policy Center.
Here's what's coming:
Medicare payroll tax: Single taxpayers earning more than $200,000 and couples making more than $250,000 will have to pay an additional 0.9% payroll tax on the amount they earn above those thresholds.
Unlike traditional payroll taxes, however, this tax will be based on household income, not individual earnings. So couples may find themselves subject to it even if they each make less than $250,000.
That could lead to a surprise at tax time since employers withhold payroll taxes only on their own workers.
For instance, if a husband and wife each earn $175,000, they will owe the additional tax, but their employers likely will not have withheld it. So they will owe $900.
Investment income tax: Wealthier taxpayers with investment income could be subject to an additional 3.8% levy. Investment income includes interest, dividends and capital gains, among other things.
The formula is somewhat complicated. Only those with modified adjusted gross incomes above a threshold of $200,000, or $250,000 if married, need be concerned.
But filers don't always owe tax on all their investment income. It's just on the investment income that exceeds the threshold.
For example, if a married couple has income of $300,000, of which $275,000 is from wages and $25,000 is from investments, they would owe the tax on all the investment income, or $950 in taxes.
But if the same couple had $125,000 in investment income, they would owe tax only on $50,000, or $1,900 in taxes, because that's the amount that exceeds the threshold.
Deduction for medical expenses: Also, it will become harder to deduct medical expenses, though this deduction is more common among middle class taxpayers.
Until now, taxpayers could deduct medical expenses that exceeded 7.5% of their adjusted gross income. This level is rising to 10% next year.
One-third of the people who took this deduction had income in the $50,000 to $100,000 range in 2010, according to a CNNMoney analysis of Internal Revenue Service data. Only a tiny fraction of the rich took advantage of this deduction because their high incomes made it hard to reach the threshold.
 
I'm sure this picture is on the wall of the mens room at the White house....
182677328604845301_ciuN5SEu_b.jpg


It was put there by Bill, and nobody want to remove it...
You'd think!

I have the feeling that America really need to act soon. Sadly the time is to not be nice...

One thing that Clinton pulled of, apart from other things of course.. is that he reversed the dept vs GDP, actually paying of debt while in office!
Bring the man back!!

In Norway we have always had tax rate that would make most other nations cringe!
Let me tell you , the total tax rate in Norway is something like effective 70% ++ !!!
I think the actual number of how much money passes through the government system is like 76-78% (That is actual cash flow).
(the number is ca 32 to 55% if you look at tax, you have to pay, but that isn't how our system works... in a way)
But because of the system first want you to pay, then you get back money (once a year) , you usually end up paying in the neighborhood of 28 to 38% effective.

A former class mate (from school) is one of the dudes running this system and he is as close to Einstein as I have ever seen.
You need serious brain power to do this kind of thing. And Norway has been out of debt for decades! But it did take 30 years of real hard work and planning! It did not come easily!

Now it really is time for America to change their act! We do not want to see you fall like Greece!! We really don't!!!

Mvh
 
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Pretty colors. And yes, austerity may seem like an answer to the debt, but it is a critical blow to a weak economy. What we should not have done was spent like drunken sailors on wars of choice/nationbuilding/entitlement expansions when the economy was relatively strong, under Bush (or at least we should have spent the freakin' money here). Now we're in a real pickle -- we're just barely out of the worst world economy since the 1930s; NOW is when we should be spending like drunken sailors (but only on things that put money directly into our domestic economy). But we have a huge debt to point to like Chicken Little's sky, and one of our political parties has forgotten how to run on anything else.

I gotcher deficit spending, and the results, right here...

Worst part of it is our politicians are not this stupid, nor this unaware of economics. They are, however, this manipulative and self-serving.

Tim
 

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I see the Clinton Myth still flies , as well as , no better than current smoke and mirrors in chief ......:)

Bushy's tax plan is to expire as planned , amongst a multitude of bad acting ,finger pointing and responsibilty meandering as representatives from all 57 states try to figure out how to introduce a national Vat.

:)
 
I guess you are counting organized territories. These have representatives?
 
I'm sure this picture is on the wall of the mens room at the White house....
182677328604845301_ciuN5SEu_b.jpg


It was put there by Bill, and nobody want to remove it...
You'd think!

I have the feeling that America really need to act soon. Sadly the time is to not be nice...

One thing that Clinton pulled of, apart from other things of course.. is that he reversed the dept vs GDP, actually paying of debt while in office!
Bring the man back!!

In Norway we have always had tax rate that would make most other nations cringe!
Let me tell you , the total tax rate in Norway is something like effective 70% ++ !!!
I think the actual number of how much money passes through the government system is like 76-78% (That is actual cash flow).
(the number is ca 32 to 55% if you look at tax, you have to pay, but that isn't how our system works... in a way)
But because of the system first want you to pay, then you get back money (once a year) , you usually end up paying in the neighborhood of 28 to 38% effective.

A former class mate (from school) is one of the dudes running this system and he is as close to Einstein as I have ever seen.
You need serious brain power to do this kind of thing. And Norway has been out of debt for decades! But it did take 30 years of real hard work and planning! It did not come easily!

Now it really is time for America to change their act! We do not want to see you fall like Greece!! We really don't!!!

Mvh

Not quite my friend. Clinton would have never done such a thing had it not been for a republican controlled congress. Bring back Gingrich and company.
 

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