MSB SELECT DAC Video - Factory tour

[asiufy]

THanks for the impressions. Who is the typical customer for such a product? Audiophiles or wealthy individuals?

Audiophiles, mostly. The same folks who got a full stack dCS Vivaldi + cables for almost twice the price of the SELECT, and not nearly the same level of performance.
The word I got from MSB is that they've been very successful in selling the SELECT to analog-only folks who couldn't be bothered, so far, with digital. The SELECT gives them a peace of mind, that they're getting state of the art, and that it'll continue to be so for the next 10 years, with little extra expenditure.

And I'd ask edorr and andromedaudio if they have heard the SELECT DAC, in order to proclaim stuff like "all those high $$ prices for miniscule digital gains" or "The "value" of the $90K DAC is primarily it's excusivity, not its sonic performance." If they did, and found out it's no better than whatever they decided to keep/use, it's their prerrogative to come out to a forum and say so. If they haven't heard it, I'd politely ask them not to pollute this topic with opinion based on nothing at all.

 

[andromedaaudio]

Yes i have heard top digital , the full vivaldi stack , the zanden 2 box digi system , the top $$ audio note dac , kondo dac and some more ,my opinion remains the same , if you cant stand the heat stay out of the kitchen is another saying
I own a meitner dac myself , money is only relative

 

[Ken Newton]

With all respect to this company , all those high $$ prices for miniscule digital gains....High end development is getting really boring , thats why i pretty much stopped posting

I recently posted a comment touching on this issue. http://www.whatsbestforum.com/showt...e-Market-Today&p=345809&viewfull=1#post345809

The reason you see so much engineering effort and production expense applied toward delivering questionable technical improvements, such as lowering distortion and noise by another few dB, or on reducing clock jitter to femtosecond levels (next stop, attoseconds) is simply because those are the only established technical avenues for product improvement. Performance factors such as these are what engineers know to improve on, so, improve on them they do. What else can they do?

However, do any of us believe that the difference between electronic reproduction that sounds live, and that of what we typically hear even from a very serious hifi system is a matter of lowering THD from 0.00001% to absolutely zero? I suspect that most engineers believe that improvements on the established measurement criteria have long since passed the gilding the lily stage. It has largely become more a matter of providing competitive bragging rights for vendors, rather than increased audible benefits for the customer.

As measured performance increase has clearly reached an asymptote versus the effort extended, the cost of achieving that performance is commensurately increasing exponentially. However, a larger issue than obscene product pricing, I think, is that instead of performamce improvement finally revealing audiophile heaven, it may instead be revealing an unsatisfying dead-end of sorts. The dead-end is where components having absolutely perfect technical performance will still leave home music reproduction sounding artificial. Is a convincingly live sounding illusion too much to expect? Perhaps, in fact, it is. And, if it is, what then are we hoping to achieve in spending so much money on our equipment?

 

[edorr]

Audiophiles, mostly. The same folks who got a full stack dCS Vivaldi + cables for almost twice the price of the SELECT, and not nearly the same level of performance.
The word I got from MSB is that they've been very successful in selling the SELECT to analog-only folks who couldn't be bothered, so far, with digital. The SELECT gives them a peace of mind, that they're getting state of the art, and that it'll continue to be so for the next 10 years, with little extra expenditure.

And I'd ask edorr and andromedaudio if they have heard the SELECT DAC, in order to proclaim stuff like "all those high $$ prices for miniscule digital gains" or "The "value" of the $90K DAC is primarily it's excusivity, not its sonic performance." If they did, and found out it's no better than whatever they decided to keep/use, it's their prerrogative to come out to a forum and say so. If they haven't heard it, I'd politely ask them not to pollute this topic with opinion based on nothing at all.

My comment is based on MSB's marketing strategy of "packaging" their top of the line DAC in a very exclusive chassis made with their own expensive tooling, and price it the very upper end of the independently wealthy (Asian) market. There is no doubt that they if they packaged the DAC in a boring cheap chassis and priced it at say $30K and sell many times more the volume, they could do so profitably. So I conclude the $90K carries a very high "exclusivity premium". This is a perfectly legitimate and common marketing strategy.

FWIW, I used to own a $30K MSB DAC and ditched it for the PS Audio directstream, which was very close if not equivalent (and post firmware upgrades proably better). Of course, the select is a whole different ballgame.....

 

[andromedaaudio]

I read your link and i absolutely agree , high end audio should invest /explore into analogue tapetechnics to reach a higher level then what it is now .this path seems to be running into a dead end


QUOTE=Ken Newton;350277]I recently posted a comment touching on this issue. http://www.whatsbestforum.com/showt...e-Market-Today&p=345809&viewfull=1#post345809

The reason you see so much engineering effort and production expense applied toward delivering questionable technical improvements, such as lowering distortion and noise by another few dB, or on reducing clock jitter to femtosecond levels (next stop, attoseconds) is simply because those are the only established technical avenues for product improvement. Performance factors such as these are what engineers know to improve on, so, improve on them they do. What else can they do?

However, do any of us believe that the difference between electronic reproduction that sounds live, and that of what we typically hear even from a very serious hifi system is a matter of lowering THD from 0.00001% to absolutely zero? I suspect that most engineers believe that improvements on the established measurement criteria have long since passed the gilding the lily stage. It has largely become more a matter of providing competitive bragging rights for vendors, rather than increased audible benefits for the customer.

As measured performance increase has clearly reached an asymptote versus the effort extended, the cost of achieving that performance is commensurately increasing exponentially. However, a larger issue than obscene product pricing, I think, is that instead of performamce improvement finally revealing audiophile heaven, it may instead be revealing an unsatisfying dead-end of sorts. The dead-end is where components having absolutely perfect technical performance will still leave home music reproduction sounding artificial. Is a convincingly live sounding illusion too much to expect? Perhaps, in fact, it is. And, if it is, what then are we hoping to achieve in spending so much money on our equipment?[/QUOTE]

 

[asiufy]

andromedaudio,

I don't see "dCS" or "Meitner" in the title of this topic. If you think, generally, that expensive DACs don't deliver what they cost, it's your prerrogative. But don't include the one in the title of this thread until you've heard it, please. I don't mind criticism, as long as it's grounded in experience.
For the record, I think $90k is a lot of money. But so is $110k+ for a Vivaldi stack. And besides, "worth it" is relative. I'd rather spend $90k on a SOTA DAC (if only I could do that...) that's arguably the best digital out there than $80k in some amps from a well-known manufacturer that's just a rehash of old designs, and sound mediocre at best...

edorr,

How do you know MSB could deliver the same DAC, with a boring chassis, for $30K?
Besides, I have just spent the last month or so listening to the DirectStream DAC, as we're the brazilian distributors. I'm sorry, but we must have extremely different hearing, as I found the MSB Analog DAC noticeably superior to it in various areas of performance, and I can't imagine anyone preferring it to the MSB Diamond or Signature.
Again, it's your money, your choices. But the DirectStream is a solid $6k DAC that beats many more expensive units. Just none of the MSB, IMHO.

As soon as I know for sure when we're getting a SELECT in the store, I hope some of you can stop by and audition it, so you all won't have to take my word for it


cheers,
alex

 

[CKKeung]

I auditioned the MSB new Diamond Select DAC 3 times : when Larry and his son brought it to Hong Kong during a world tour a few months ago ; at the Hong Kong HiFi Show in August ; yesterday evening in the home of the first Diamond Select owner in Hong Kong.

IMHO it is the best DAC I have ever auditioned, better than even the Trinity DAC.
It has all the virtues of MSB (such as bass quality, resolution, dynamics...) and then some (musicality of Trinity and dCS Vivaldi).
Its design concept and construction (both electronic & chassis) are at least a few years ahead of other flagship DACs in the market.



However I must admit that it is :
(1) Extremely expensive.
(2) I can't afford it now and in future.

 

[asiufy]

Thanks, CKKeung! My perception as well... Very far ahead of the rest, but unfortunately, very far also from most folks

Since the production units are shipping, I'm curious to hear it again, as what I listened to was a pre-production model.

 

[Al M.]

Audiophiles, mostly. The same folks who got a full stack dCS Vivaldi + cables for almost twice the price of the SELECT, and not nearly the same level of performance.
The word I got from MSB is that they've been very successful in selling the SELECT to analog-only folks who couldn't be bothered, so far, with digital. The SELECT gives them a peace of mind, that they're getting state of the art, and that it'll continue to be so for the next 10 years, with little extra expenditure.

Alex,

how do you think the DAC's performance on Redbook 16/44 CD measures up to top level vinyl in your opinion, and what have you heard from others? CD is the one digital medium that interests me because that's where all the music is. Not that I could ever afford the DAC, I am just curious what the CD medium is really capable of when its inherent resolution is maximally retrieved at the current state of the art.

 

[asiufy]

Alex,

how do you think the DAC's performance on Redbook 16/44 CD measures up to top level vinyl in your opinion, and what have you heard from others? CD is the one digital medium that interests me because that's where all the music is. Not that I could ever afford the DAC, I am just curious what the CD medium is really capable of when its inherent resolution is maximally retrieved at the current state of the art.

Al M.,

I love vinyl, have a sizeable collection, and I always thought certain records would never, ever sound OK, or even listenable, in CD format. Ramones, for instance. Or Kansas. Or Van der Graaf Generator. Just to mention some bands I like, and that I had LPs as the go-to format.

So, once the SELECT DAC landed in my hands, the first couple of albums I queued up were exactly those, that I have on CD (ripped on my server). And what do you know, but they're not only listentable, but they rocked too! Ramones were punchy, drums sounded like drums not just cardboard. The Kansas stuff, generally very compressed and shrill, was amazingly spacious and detailed. And that's just a bunch of old 70s rock recordings.

We do have a Kronos turntable in the store, with an Ortofon A95 cartridge, that I'm in love with. And I tell you, it was neck and neck between a Led Zep II original 1969 pressing and the recent 24/96 remaster going through the SELECT DAC!

One thing that's interesting is that Vince Gabo from MSB always demonstrates with plain old 16/44 from his laptop, using JRiver, with nothing fancy. And Harry Connick sounded spooky real though it, I tell you

Vinyl, even in less than SOTA setups, always had the "palpability" thing down perfectly, the image of the instruments/voices fully delineated and *real*. That level of realism is obtainable with good Redbook, or more commonly, with good hi-res/DSD. But with the SELECT, nearly everything going through it had that level of realism! I tell you, it was extremely addictive, and I put my server through its paces playing all those tracks that I had long neglected in digital format

If you can, see if you can come to an audition of the SELECT in your area. But be prepared to be spoiled forever!

 

[Mike Lavigne]

I auditioned the MSB new Diamond Select DAC 3 times : when Larry and his son brought it to Hong Kong during a world tour a few months ago ; at the Hong Kong HiFi Show in August ; yesterday evening in the home of the first Diamond Select owner in Hong Kong.

IMHO it is the best DAC I have ever auditioned, better than even the Trinity DAC.
It has all the virtues of MSB (such as bass quality, resolution, dynamics...) and then some (musicality of Trinity and dCS Vivaldi).
Its design concept and construction (both electronic & chassis) are at least a few years ahead of other flagship DACs in the market.

thanks for the feedback. in any of your three demos of the Select DAC was there a Trinity dac involved for direct comparison? if so; any details on how the system was set up?

However I must admit that it is :
(1) Extremely expensive.
(2) I can't afford it now and in future.

me too; big $$$$'s.

 

[CKKeung]

thanks for the feedback. in any of your three demos of the Select DAC was there a Trinity dac involved for direct comparison? if so; any details on how the system was set up?
me too; big $$$$'s.

Auisfy's description is spot on!
Select has that kind of musicality/"analogness"/palpability found in Trinity!

There is at the present moment only 1 Select delivered to pre-paid owners in Hong Kong. Serious backorder.
Trinity has a diff HK dealer and it's near-impossible to do a direct comparison between Trinity & Select. It is too sensitive! Many audiophiles have big ego.

Anyway I have been a MSB follower and user for many years, have many MSB friends and several Trinity friends so I think I have enough audition experience to make such a comment, despite the auditions were with diff systems.
Please go to your MSB local dealer to have a listen. I am sure that you won't be disappointed.

 

[CKKeung]

Any details on how the system was set up?

My first 2 auditions of Select : it was paired with Omicron amps & Rosso Fiorentino speakers which were carried by the MSB HK dealer.
My third audition of Select : it was paired with Kondo M1000mk2 preamp+211poweramp and Crystal Cable's Absolute Arabesque speaker.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

Auisfy's description is spot on!
Select has that kind of musicality/"analogness"/palpability found in Trinity!

There is at the present moment only 1 Select delivered to pre-paid owners in Hong Kong. Serious backorder.
Trinity has a diff HK dealer and it's near-impossible to do a direct comparison between Trinity & Select. It is too sensitive! Many audiophiles have big ego.

Anyway I have been a MSB follower and user for many years, have many MSB friends and several Trinity friends so I think I have enough audition experience to make such a comment, despite the auditions were with diff systems.
Please go to your MSB local dealer to have a listen. I am sure that you won't be disappointed.

honestly; I do expect that the MSB Select Dac with the 33 femto clock will surpass the Trinity dac. but at $110k it certainly should. my ego will not be bruised if a report of a direct comparison results in feedback in favor of the Select Dac. none-the-less I am curious to get feedback when/if that actually happens as I am curious how much difference there is and in what ways. and at the top of the digital heap you need a head to head to identify real differences. there is not clear enough differences to be able to project those type differences reliably from one system to another system. too many variables.

in things digital the 'best' is a fleeting concept. we must accept that as inevitable.

I'm likely more 'defensive' regarding alleged MSB Select Dac comparisons to top level vinyl than I am about the Trinity dac comparison. and waay more skeptical about that likelihood. which is why I'm curious about how close the Select and Trinity are. I know how the Trinity and my vinyl compare. they don't.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

My first 2 auditions of Select : it was paired with Omicron amps & Rosso Fiorentino speakers which were carried by the MSB HK dealer.
My third audition of Select : it was paired with Kondo M1000mk2 preamp+211poweramp and Crystal Cable's Absolute Arabesque speaker.

thank you for the information. sounds like some enjoyable sessions.

 

[CKKeung]

honestly; I do expect that the MSB Select Dac with the 33 femto clock will surpass the Trinity dac. but at $110k it certainly should. my ego will not be bruised if a report of a direct comparison results in feedback in favor of the Select Dac. none-the-less I am curious to get feedback when/if that actually happens as I am curious how much difference there is and in what ways. and at the top of the digital heap you need a head to head to identify real differences. there is not clear enough differences to be able to project those type differences reliably from one system to another system. too many variables.
in things digital the 'best' is a fleeting concept. we must accept that as inevitable.
I'm likely more 'defensive' regarding alleged MSB Select Dac comparisons to top level vinyl than I am about the Trinity dac comparison. and waay more skeptical about that likelihood. which is why I'm curious about how close the Select and Trinity are. I know how the Trinity and my vinyl compare. they don't.

Hi Mike,

Are you in USA or Europe?
In Hong Kong there are <10 pre-ordered Select totally and only one Select has been delivered.
I don't expect all or most of the remaining HK owners can get theirs in the next 2-3 months (because of the Xmas & New Year holidays).

I am also very curious about a direct comparison of Select & Trinity. I will try to arrange such a private party in HK but the success chance is slim.

For Select vs LP, I think this is apple vs orange but my personal view is that LP is invincible.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

Hi Mike,

Are you in USA or Europe?
In Hong Kong there are <10 pre-ordered Select totally and only one Select has been delivered.
I don't expect all or most of the remaining HK owners can get theirs in the next 2-3 months (because of the Xmas & New Year holidays).

I am also very curious about a direct comparison of Select & Trinity. I will try to arrange such a private party in HK but the success chance is slim.

For Select vs LP, I think this is apple vs orange but my personal view is that LP is invincible.

CK,

thank you very much. I am in the Seattle area, USA. I know that there will be an MSB Select dac in the San Diego area soon, but that is too far away for me to visit there at this time. but hopefully at some point i'll get the chance to hear one. I am curious about it on a few levels. and maybe if it really grabbed me I would try to rationalize it for myself.

good luck on putting together that direct MSB Select-Trinity comparison; I hope it happens.

and yes; my vinyl has no need to concern itself with digital getting very close I think. OTOH great digital has brought me much real musical pleasure recently and does not need to equal vinyl.

 

[asiufy]

thank you very much. I am in the Seattle area, USA. I know that there will be an MSB Select dac in the San Diego area soon, but that is too far away for me to visit there at this time. but hopefully at some point i'll get the chance to hear one. I am curious about it on a few levels. and maybe if it really grabbed me I would try to rationalize it for myself.

Mike,

Not only it'll be in the SD area, but it'll be available with familiar components (darTZeel + Evolution MM3) Perhaps that'll convince you to stop by? hehehe We open on weekends!

cheers,
alex

 

[Mike Lavigne]

Mike,

Not only it'll be in the SD area, but it'll be available with familiar components (darTZeel + Evolution MM3) Perhaps that'll convince you to stop by? hehehe We open on weekends!

cheers,
alex

thanks Alex, you never know....it may work out one way of another.

 

[Al M.]

Al M.,

I love vinyl, have a sizeable collection, and I always thought certain records would never, ever sound OK, or even listenable, in CD format. Ramones, for instance. Or Kansas. Or Van der Graaf Generator. Just to mention some bands I like, and that I had LPs as the go-to format.

So, once the SELECT DAC landed in my hands, the first couple of albums I queued up were exactly those, that I have on CD (ripped on my server). And what do you know, but they're not only listentable, but they rocked too! Ramones were punchy, drums sounded like drums not just cardboard. The Kansas stuff, generally very compressed and shrill, was amazingly spacious and detailed. And that's just a bunch of old 70s rock recordings.

We do have a Kronos turntable in the store, with an Ortofon A95 cartridge, that I'm in love with. And I tell you, it was neck and neck between a Led Zep II original 1969 pressing and the recent 24/96 remaster going through the SELECT DAC!

One thing that's interesting is that Vince Gabo from MSB always demonstrates with plain old 16/44 from his laptop, using JRiver, with nothing fancy. And Harry Connick sounded spooky real though it, I tell you

Vinyl, even in less than SOTA setups, always had the "palpability" thing down perfectly, the image of the instruments/voices fully delineated and *real*. That level of realism is obtainable with good Redbook, or more commonly, with good hi-res/DSD. But with the SELECT, nearly everything going through it had that level of realism! I tell you, it was extremely addictive, and I put my server through its paces playing all those tracks that I had long neglected in digital format

If you can, see if you can come to an audition of the SELECT in your area. But be prepared to be spoiled forever!

Alex,

thanks a lot for this encouraging report about the potential of 16/44 Redbook CD. It's great to hear that Vince Gabo from MSB always demonstrates with plain old 16/44. He obviously understands where most of the music is (CD and to a lesser extent vinyl top the list, obviously), and that being an audiophile should be for music lovers, not for music lovers having become sound junkies that choose format over music.