My default audiophile state: dissatisfaction

[astrotoy]

Are you generally dissatisfied with many things in your life, not just your audio system? If so, then I think you may be looking for the solution in the wrong place. A good analyst might cost less than a new preamp or amp. If you are satisfied with your life in general, but your audio system is your main area of dissatifaction, then the suggestions the posters are making may get you what you are looking for. Notice I have deliberately not put any emoticons in my post.

Larry

 

[JackD201]

Interesting point Larry. In my case my music satisfaction (and listening time) goes up, the more stressed out I am from real world concerns.

In any case, I hope diapason doesn't take it the wrong way if I offer up some of my personal free, quick fix solutions. Those that work for me when I've been confronted with the very same concerns.

Use softer focus. A pair of speakers are like a pair of binoculars you can arrange them so they are razor sharp or arrange them so they are a bit more diffuse. When taking portraits with a camera some softening always helps to prettify the subject. Even the most beautiful woman in the world has pores right?

First thing I would do is disconnect one loudspeaker and play just one of them. Listen to a familiar track and go around your speaker in a 180 degree arc while being at listening height level. This is easy to do if you have an office chair somewhere in your house. Otherwise you need to kneel and crawl around like a deranged crab. As you do this make a note at what points off axis the balance between mids and highs is forgiving but not washed out. You will by now have chosen a shallow dip that you like in the crossover region between tweeter and midrange. As an aid, note how much of the inside cabinet you will see. Now duplicate that with the other speaker. If the mid bass is lacking because of this change move the speakers closer together in small increments while adjusting for the same amount of visible "inside cabinetry" until things lock in. As for the low bass if it is lacking don't be afraid to move them closer to the front wall or conversely move them a bit forward as may be needed. Lastly, you can also try adjusting the rake angle of the speakers using the outriggers. to lessen some heat you can slant the speakers backwards a bit more than usual. In the end, you will no longer have laser cut imaging but you should gain ground on spatiality and timbre. Anyway, this is free so you can always go back to the way it was before if you want to. It might look weird at first but if it works, the new look should grow on you.

 

[Orb]

How refreshing to read of someone who just enjoys what they like !

That is the fun of music IMO
Thanks
Orb

 

[PeterA]

It is IMO always good to remember that this hobby is always about dissatisfaction. Because, as soon as you think you have it right, you surprise yourself with a trip to hear "live" music and realize how far you still have to go. This aspect is what attracts me to the hobby...because it allows me to gauge the "reality" factor ( for want of a better descriptor).
Personally, I enjoy the quest....are we getting close to the reproduction of the sound of the reed in the clarinet, the "blat" that I hear live from the trumpet or sax player. Can I decipher which guitar make that I am listening to on the LP? Do I hear the small but important movements of the guitar player's fingers on the fret board....the piano player's use of the foot pedal etc., etc.,
To many, just enjoying the music is enough....and why not. Playing it back over the ipod or the radio in the car is enough....( and I say ABSOLUTELY NOTHING wrong with that). I enjoy the music as much as the next guy over the ipod and radio. BUT, in some ways that's NOT what this hobby is about. NO, it's about trying to fool myself ( and perhaps others) into thinking I have the real musicians in my stereo room ( as implausible as that might seem and is). How close can we get to the"real" in our home environment???
It's a never ending quest...I wouldn't call the quest a recipe for dissatisfaction, instead a quest for as HP so eloquently put it...a quest for the "Absolute Sound".
To some that will be dissatisfying, to others, a pleasurable enterprise that will hopefully add to our enjoyment of recorded music. I know it does for me.

Excellent post, but I don't think the hobby is always about dissatisfaction. Plenty of us are completely satisfied, though I do understand what you are getting at. Our systems don't sound real, but many sound close enough to be extremely satisfying. The quest for better sound can be a big part of this hobby and is what drives many people.

I also don't think there is "an absolute sound". The sound from an orchestra or instrument can vary depending on many, many factors. The same violin will sound different from day to day or in different environments. But those who listen to a lot of live music have a pretty good sense of what a violin sounds like in general.

But isn't it great to completely lose yourself to the music in the comfort of your own house after a long day at work? Or to share your favorite music with others and marvel at how good it actually sounds?

 

[rblnr]

I think there's a bit of 'familiarity breeds contempt' or at least boredom in this. The system (lover, etc), just isn't as exciting as it was early on. So we have thoughts to move on -- a pretty natural response whether long term good or not. I'll be getting the new subs that go with my speakers -- they're better than what I have and for better and worse reasons will likely spark some new enthusiasm for my system.

The OP also has some specific gripes; I'm firmly with Jack (positioning) and room treatment crowd -- you've got a good shot at least somewhat mitigating your issues.

 

[PeterA]

In the Vivid G1 thread, Al M. said:



At the time I glibly responded that I couldn't say the same, but on reflection I'm not sure that I've *ever* been truly happy with a system. Okay, there are fleeting moments of satisfaction but they're always short-lived, and invariably I find myself demented by some aspect: room, speakers, amps, tubes, sound treatments, positioning, sources, channel imbalances, frequency anomalies, general tonality, whatever. Over the years I've cobbled together a pretty good system, not a patch on some others here obviously, but a good system nonetheless. However I hardly ever listen to it, mainly because it seems to cause as much angst as enjoyment these days (having a 3 year-old reduces available time as well, but that's just an excuse). I sometimes wish I'd stuck with my very first, very basic system and never upgraded.

I had some audiophile friends over last week, and to be honest I had tempered their expectation so much that by the time they arrived they were expecting something horrible. In reality they thought the sonics were great, and when I listened to everything through "their" ears, it sounded pretty good to me too. Still, I think I need new speakers...

Is there any hope for me? Will I always be that one upgrade away from nirvana?

I think it depends on what your goals are. Do you understand what it is about the hobby that interests you? If it is about getting better sound, then I disagree with some of the posters who think that you should stop comparing your system to others. If one is truly interested in better sound AND learning how to achieve it, I think much can be learned by hearing many different systems and talking to their owners.

Take your favorite music and hear it on a variety of systems that interest you. Horn/tubes, digital/analog, SS/cones, panels, any combination. Find out if it is possible for a system to really impress you. If you find one, then try to learn what it is about it that you like. Is it the gear, the room, the entire combination? This can help tremendously in one's quest. If after hearing some of your "dream systems" you are still not satisfied by any of them, then there may be something else involved and it may be very difficult to be happy with audio.

It comes down to what your expectations really are. Is it really only about the music? Is it about the quest of trying to capture what you hear live in your own home? Is it about something else? If you don't know, it will be difficult to move forward and ultimately find satisfaction.

LL21, Atmasphere and others who have posted that they are very happy with their systems and enjoy them tremendously seem to be clear about what they want out of the hobby. And they have found it.

 

[thedudeabides]

It is IMO always good to remember that this hobby is always about dissatisfaction.

Thought it was about enjoying the music. Adopting that attitude, IMHO, will result in neurosis (not healthy) and one is abandoning the very thing one is trying to achieve.

 

[Joe Whip]

It seems that some people are never happy in this hobby, regardless of how much they spend or how much time they put into their room. Others, put together and very nice sounding systems and are happy with it and enjoy the music. In this regard, the hobby is just like many others in life's pursuits, whether it is wine, food or women. When I read about the unrest many find in this hobby, I can't help but think about some men I know who have been through several wives, discarding great women because they just had to have something new, which usually means younger. One can't get past basic human nature.

 

[Andre Marc]

It seems that some people are never happy in this hobby, regardless of how much they spend or how much time they put into their room. Others, put together and very nice sounding systems and are happy with it and enjoy the music. In this regard, the hobby is just like many others in life's pursuits, whether it is wine, food or women. When I read about the unrest many find in this hobby, I can't help but think about some men I know who have been through several wives, discarding great women because they just had to have something new, which usually means younger. One can't get past basic human nature.

Unfortunately this hobby is heavily populated with men who have too much money, very little knowledge about music, rarely every attend live performances, and easily succumb to peer pressure.

Something has gone wrong in the hobby. When I was a kid we would sit in a room and listen to records and just be transfixed and really bond over the power of the music and we never once
worried about room acoustics, power cords, grounding, isolation devices...

When a person sits in a solitary state for hours staring at expensive boxes and furniture masquerading as speakers there will be plenty of time for the mind to drift and enter into a realm
of "dissatisfaction", or even what is known as Hedonistic Adaption.. A very first world and luxurious problem to have.

 

[Atmasphere]

^^ +1

Fascinating thread. I don't disagree with the general consensus that the room may be a factor. However, I saw that your system doesn't use a preamp. Because of the transparency and detail you gain it seems counter intuitive to muck things up with a preamp but what you lose without one may just be what you have been missing. Experience has convinced me that for long term satisfaction the lack of good preamp can make or break a system. I don't really want to debate the question since I know it's controversial but If you haven't done so already it may be one aspect that you may want to investigate.

The preamp does more than just control volume and select inputs! It also controls the effect of the interconnect cable and buffers the volume control from the effects thereof. If you have ever wondered why passive volume controls often have a way of loosing bass impact then you understand how important this buffering can be. A good preamp can knock out nearly all the artifact that cables frequently impose. IME many DACs are not particularly good at this- don't know why as there is no good reason for that I can think of.

 

[Joe Whip]

Unfortunately this hobby is heavily populated with men who have too much money, very little knowledge about music, rarely every attend live performances, and easily succumb to peer pressure.

Something has gone wrong in the hobby. When I was a kid we would sit in a room and listen to records and just be transfixed and really bond over the power of the music and we never once
worried about room acoustics, power cords, grounding, isolation devices...

When a person sits in a solitary state for hours staring at expensive boxes and furniture masquerading as speakers there will be plenty of time for the mind to drift and enter into a realm
of "dissatisfaction", or even what is known as Hedonistic Adaption.. A very first world and luxurious problem to have.

I agree with a lot of what you say Andre. The money spent on cables and power cords is simply astounding to me for example.

 

[Diapason]

Thanks for all the responses, I see the can is open and the worms are everywhere! I want to answer the questions asked as best I can, but I feel I should start here:

Are you generally dissatisfied with many things in your life, not just your audio system? If so, then I think you may be looking for the solution in the wrong place. A good analyst might cost less than a new preamp or amp.

Perhaps I over-egged the pudding with my first post, but we're not at that level of angst! I forget sometimes that I'm new here and that other members can only judge based on the words I type, and that none of you actually know me (I'm a long-time member on a local forum and have met virtually everybody, so they're used to me). To that end, rest assured that I'm well-adjusted, happily married, live a good life that I generally enjoy, I laugh a lot and don't get too stressed for the most part. I'm not even a natural upgraditis sufferer or box-swapper (I've owned 3 cars in my entire life, for example). Hifi-related comments should not be construed as signifying any deeper need, but it's a point well-made, Larry, so thank you for asking!

Right then, despite the impression I may have given to the contrary, I really do believe that my dissatisfaction is caused by a specific set of sonic issues, and that these problems can be solved. However, it seems clear that my current method of upgrading isn't working for me, as my approach seems to take me too far down one path at the expense of others. I always pushed for resolution and clarity, each upgrade had to give me more details, and on the face of it that seems sensible. However, "clarity" for me was always a function of mid and treble openness, and as a result I always ended up prioritising that over everything else. In my 20s I was that guy who was completely seduced by the sound of well-recorded female vocals and small-scale baroque music, and I built a system to maximise that. Some part of me thought that if it did that well, if it conveyed the purity of the human voice and accurate instrumental timbres then everything else would be good too. And to an extent it is, if everything is recorded *just so*.

I'm at work so I don't really have time to go into more detail in terms of what causes me to turn off, but at the most basic level if the recording is even remotely hot it's going to be difficult to enjoy on this system (which is indeed as per my sig, btw). If there's any kind of large-scale complexity that needs a solid underpinning, it's going to sound quite compromised. If the recording is warm (or even distantly-mic'ed) then it'll probably sound good, and I have lots of examples, but there are just too many recordings that I can't enjoy for me to be happy. Rock is very difficult (in the words of one non-audiophile friend: "It sounds tinny") but these days I don't listen to so much of that. I can't decide whether I don't listen because I don't want to or because it sounds bad. Jazz generally sounds good, but even early Miles Davis can be a turn-off because the tonal balance seems so tilted towards upper-mid hardness. Large-scale choral works can sound unnaturally spotlit and thin, as can orchestral music. Classical piano and organ music often lack scale, and I'm not even talking about pedal notes here.

For me, it seems to be a question of tonal balance, with upper-mid exaggerated at the expense of upper bass. I'll try to confirm this with room measurements in due course, but no matter what they say this is what I hear. The final kicker: I'm a pretty good organist, and have spent a lot of time playing, accompanying and listening to organ and choral forces. Trying not to compare my system to the live experience would be an exercise in futility, but I never expect to recreate that at home. I just need something that does it better, and that can provide a more even-handed approach across the board. I'd lose some resolution and clarity for that now.

Final thoughts: I'm still a music lover, please take my word for that! I'm a musician myself, I hear a lot of music in the course of my life, a lot of it live, and I consider music to be the greatest of mankind's inventions. It raises goosebumps and bring tears to my eyes, irrespective of the playback medium. I haven't fallen out of love with music, far from it.

Final final thought: I've heard lots of systems I like (and lots that I haven't) but the recurring theme is that systems I like have a certain broad brush "sweep" to them, systems I increasingly don't like are of the forensic sort. I used to favour "warts an' all" but I'm starting to think that I no longer want that. However, I don't want to go too far the other way in my search for gorgeousness of sound.

That's quite an epistle, thanks for reading if you've made it this far! I'll try to deal with more specifics if I get a chance later, but I'm really enjoying all the comments and views expressed here.

 

[Andre Marc]

I agree with a lot of what you say Andre. The money spent on cables and power cords is simply astounding to me for example.

Cables happen to be the area where there is the most gouging, pseudo science, and marketing aimed at the gullibles.

Mind you, I am NOT a cable skeptic.

 

[Atmasphere]

Thanks for all the responses, I see the can is open and the worms are everywhere!

Yes- its always risky to open a can of worms as it always seems that it takes a whole lot bigger can to get them all back inside

 

[JackD201]

Do try my suggestions Diapason. Speaker placement is severely underrated as a means to manipulate tonal balance.

 

[GaryProtein]

The preamp does more than just control volume and select inputs! It also controls the effect of the interconnect cable and buffers the volume control from the effects thereof. If you have ever wondered why passive volume controls often have a way of loosing bass impact then you understand how important this buffering can be. A good preamp can knock out nearly all the artifact that cables frequently impose. IME many DACs are not particularly good at this- don't know why as there is no good reason for that I can think of.

Please explain this to me. The preamp "knows" what are cable artifacts and what is program material? How does it know what is an artifact and what is the music you want to hear? How does it remove artifacts that occur before and after itself in the signal path? How does it know what are artifacts from good cables you supposedly want and artifacts from bad cables you don't?

Sounds like voodoo.

 

[Andre Marc]

Please explain this to me. The preamp "knows" what are cable artifacts and what is program material? How does it know what is an artifact and what is the music you want to hear? How does it remove artifacts that occur before and after itself in the signal path? How does it know what are artifacts from good cables you supposedly want and artifacts from bad cables you don't?

Sounds like voodoo.

That is funny..because the first word that came to my mind was voodoo...vulcan mind meld? (RIP Spock).

IMO, I repeat, IMO< the preamp is the single most limiting factor to transparency in a high end end system.

 

[Al M.]

I think there's a bit of 'familiarity breeds contempt' or at least boredom in this. The system (lover, etc), just isn't as exciting as it was early on.

Seriously? I am never bored by my system, because it brings me so close to the music, and music is what I enjoy and that never bores me. I want better but not because I am bored with what I have.

By the way, even my upgrades will go only so far. I am currently upgrading my acoustics, I want better power conditioning, a better DAC (while my current one is already great), a good audio rack, and I'll probably leave it at that. I have had my amp/speaker combo for 24 years, with substantial upgrades to the amp, and I don't see myself changing that for another 24 years and probably beyond (if I live by then). The speakers will get some re-foaming, as they have in the past, just to keep them running.

Of course, if you're in the upgrade business because you're bored, that explains some of the unhealthy audiophilitis that I observe.

Unfortunately this hobby is heavily populated with men who have too much money, very little knowledge about music, rarely every attend live performances, and easily succumb to peer pressure.

Sadly, it seems that way.

 

[Al M.]

Do try my suggestions Diapason. Speaker placement is severely underrated as a means to manipulate tonal balance.

Yes, even just the degree of toe-in can change tonal balance.

 

[Al M.]

I also don't think there is "an absolute sound". The sound from an orchestra or instrument can vary depending on many, many factors. The same violin will sound different from day to day or in different environments. But those who listen to a lot of live music have a pretty good sense of what a violin sounds like in general.

I agree.