My monitor/subwoofer system

A few days ago I experimented a bit more with speaker position. The basic set-up with toe-in is explained in post # 66, but I modified my listening position to be 6 inches out from an equilateral triangle with speakers 8.4 feet apart, with toe-in adjusted as described in post # 86.

I checked what would happen with speakers just a bit closer together. It has been described that the sound can gain fullness, and this is also what I heard in Peter A.'s system when he first got his Magico Q3 and then put them 5 inches closer together from where he had the speakers originally.

In this case I decreased the distance of the speakers from 8.4 to 8.1 feet, and kept the listening seat position the same. Toe-in was adjusted, with front and rear inner edge of speakers again lining up as viewed from the listener (c.f. post # 86).

Interestingly, the tonal balance hardly changed. And neither did the perceived soundstage width. What did occur, however, was a decrease in articulation with speakers closer together, which indirectly also lead to a perceived decrease of richness of timbre. Of course, I decided to stick with the original 8.4 foot distance between speakers (tweeter to tweeter).

Yet this shows once more that it's worthwhile experimenting. Had I had the speakers at an 8.1 foot distance from each other, an increase of the distance to 8.4 foot would have yielded a significant sonic improvement. Of course, each outcome is very much system and room dependent, thus can never be predicted. Each audiophile needs to experiment on their own.
 
Below are a few pictures of my new ASC custom ceiling diffusers.
 
DSC01143_cr.jpg

DSC01137_cr.jpg

DSC01221_cr.jpg

The first reflection points of the speakers' tweeters are in the middle of the left and right middle panels (third row of panels). The slight bending in the last image with full-on view comes from the camera, the structure is straight.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Bodhi
My audiophile friends have routinely commented with favorable remarks on my room for quite a while now, mainly for the spatial depth and 3-D imaging that my system is able to exhibit in it, and for bass pressurization and quality. For the former it helps that the speaker drivers are 7 feet from the front wall. I have liked my room too, but have always had more mixed feelings about it, given how hard it has been to get the acoustics right, a sometimes thoroughly frustrating project that I have worked on for years.

Quite some time ago Peter A. thankfully pointed me to an anomaly, which is that upon hand clapping you can hear a metallic 'zing' echo from the ceiling. Laying a carpet in the listening area, covering the wood floor -- thus preventing bouncing between floor and ceiling --, dramatically improved the situation, but some of that 'zing' echo remained at a faint level. After a while I came to the conclusion that this might be a rather serious problem. Visitors complained from time to time about some remaining 'digititis', and while I am less sensitive to the issue than others, being aware of the issue also made me more bothered by it over time, in particular on some string recordings. Of course, digital itself can be a cause for digititis (and I am under no illusion that my digital is perfect either), mostly manifesting itself as unpleasant high-frequency glare and buzzing. Yet in my experience more often than not other factors, frequently among them unwanted room reflections, were the real main source of digititis in my system/room in the past (that digititis can come from sources other than the digital itself is also proven by the fact that on some (analog!) recordings it can be heard from systems with vinyl set-ups as well). And what could more stereotypically play into the perception of digititis than a metallic 'zing' echo from the ceiling? Of course, during music replay it will not be heard as such as it is upon hand clapping, but this problem of ceiling reflection likely will manifest itself as an HF buzz and 'edge' during music -- the very same thing digital has been accused of.

After mulling for a while over diverse solutions to be both efficient and aesthetically pleasing, I turned to my trusted source on acoustics, ASC (the tube trap company). In extensive and helpful email exchanges I discussed diverse options with Jordan Goulette, project manager for custom jobs, who had worked with me a few years ago on a series of the excellent ASC window plugs for my room. Eventually we arrived at the solution you see in above images. I must say I had a bit of trepidation glueing things to a ceiling, but Jordan convinced me of it, and they do it all the time, with this specific glue, Liquid Nails LN990 Ultra Quick Grip Construction Adhesive, which I also used and which worked like a charm.

The panels feature three so-called 'reflector strips' for diffusion, just like my old Tri-Panels from ASC do, which are shaped somewhat differently. I wanted as little absorption as possible, so I opted for this. On the other hand, the standard 'cinema panels' from ASC, of the same shape as my custom panels, only feature two reflector strips each, thus they have more of a dampening characteristic. I opted for 10 of the custom panels instead of the recommended 8 panels (which would make essentially two 4 x 4 feet surfaces, with one panel being 4 x 1 feet). The reason was that I wanted the flexibility of choosing between two listening seat positions. From time to time I enjoy the more close-up sound that comes with moving my seat 6 inches forward from the standard position (more towards an equilateral triangle tweeter-ear, tweeter-tweeter).

I received the ceiling diffusers already on October last year, but I wanted to first get a handle on the sound contribution of the new speaker stands, and experiment more with speaker positions, before finalizing the choice and orienting the diffusers accordingly. Eventually I mounted the diffusers in the last week of 2018/ first week of 2019. The panels follow the path of the speaker sound to the ear.

As for the liveliness of room acoustics, I did not notice any change with 6 of the diffuser panels in place (which already conferred quite a large part of the acoustic improvements described below). Yet mounting all 10 of the panels did result in some noticeable dampening of the room, to a point where it felt uncomfortable (the liveliness of acoustics had already been around a critical tipping point). The solution to that was easy: I removed the large absorbing panel next to the right speaker (it can be seen in post # 2 of the thread), and the acoustics livened up again, beyond what they had been without the ceiling diffusers but with the absorbing panel in place (underneath that same spot were, and are now again exposed, ASC Tri-Panels to diffuse the sound from the right speaker at its first reflection point at the side wall). With the new acoustic configuration the treble appears more open, but the body of the sound remains the same, or possibly has slightly increased (due to better HF behavior).
 
  • Like
Reactions: treitz3
How does it sound? It is a big improvement, significantly beyond what I expected! Due to the removal of first reflections from the ceiling, there is much less distortion, and the system appears to play with less strain, especially on orchestral music, which is really great. My monitors appear to be much less limited in their ability to effortlessly portray orchestral music at a loud level than I thought, and I love it. It changes my listening habits. I have been on a Mahler symphony spree lately (Chicago Symphony/Solti), after the installation of the diffusers. What is more, the sound of massed orchestral violins, which had already been remarkably good, has substantially improved even further! Also, some old Naxos orchestral recordings from the late Eighties, which I had dismissed as cheap early digital (I had loved more recent Naxos recordings), now reveal a timbral resolution and subtlety of string tone that I had not dreamed of ever hearing on them. Truly astonishing, and a most welcome surprise. Choral music is hard to reproduce at home, and especially on loud passages the sound can compress into a hardened-up, strained, unpleasant mess. With the ceiling diffusers in place, loud passages on great choral recordings remain open sounding and are essentially free of strain, remarkable. Operatic voices are reproduced with an effortless sound at a loud level.

The recording of Bach's violin sonatas and partitas by Sigiswald Kuijken on Harmonia Mundi, in an excellent transfer to CD, is one of the best violin recordings I know. Yet some of the high notes were too piercing; with the ceiling diffusers they are very much tamed to a more normal level, and a general HF buzz is very much attenuated. Obvious room resonances in some passages upon loud reproduction of the recording are gone as well. Interesting how the sound is improved also in unexpected, subtle ways: some intricate bowing transients, which in comparison with the overall level of the music are quieter, have lost a synthetic edge which prior to the ceiling diffusers was introduced by overlay of artificial HF emphasis on these rather midrange-y sounds.

The last couple of days I revisited a number of string quartet recordings that I know well. It is amazing how much aggression and 'edge', much of which I had not even been aware of, the ceiling diffusers removed from the sound. More recently I had been delighted about the high resolution digital transfer from analog tape to CD of the 1971 Decca recordings of Beethoven's middle string Quartets by the Quartetto Italiano, very beautiful performances *). Yet there also had been a strange technicolor HF emphasis which I had hardly heard on other string quartet recordings in my system. With the ceiling diffusers that HF emphasis is gone, and the warm, rich sound reminds me more of the experience of these recordings from LP in Peter's system, which I had enjoyed so much a few months ago when we listened to all three quartets op. 59. On Mozart string quartet recordings (1966) from the same series the HF emphasis had been worse; it is still there to some extent but the rendition now sounds much more natural, and thoroughly enjoyable. Do I expect everyone who visits to stop being bothered by 'digititis'? No, but I assume the sensation will be lessened substantially for all. Time will tell.

One thing is clear: even a very expensive top-level new-generation MSB DAC, from a series of DACs that are known for their lack of 'digital' sound, would not have solved the 'digititis' problem in my room in the absence of ceiling diffusers. The problem that I had was mainly acoustic in nature. Now that the ceiling diffusers are in place, could a switch to a different DAC bring even further improvements in HF behavior in my room? That is quite possible.

Certainly, my ceiling is not necessarily typical with its problems. Hand clapping in rooms of my audiophile friends does not reveal similar issues. On the other hand, one friend has commented that his acoustics book points to both floor and ceiling as the first problem areas to address, and he does have ceiling treatment as well. So perhaps in general ceiling diffusers are to be considered an essential acoustic treatment -- where possible in a home living arrangement.

_____________

*) highly recommended, complete recordings of the Quartetto Italiano on 37 CDs for around 100 dollars or less:
https://www.amazon.com/Quartetto-Italiano-Complete-Philips-Recordings/dp/B013L20N4G
(the label "Box set, 7 CD" is an error, it's 37 CDs)
 
Al, thanks for the pics and detailed report on your room build and ASC room treatments. ASC is one of the 3 room acoustic companies I would approach to do the acoustics in my next, dedicated audio room incl: SMT & RPG. Your room is looking very good so far. How far along in the build are you? Or do you have it all done now?

Also I had a couple of random questions. Are you using their new IsoThermal tube traps? And obviously in this case you've installed the roof panels yourself, though can ASC handle the whole process from initial consultation through to installation? Looking forward to reading through the whole build process when i've got more time over the next couple of days. Cheers!
 
Last edited:
Al M


Thanks for the tip on the box set. I have the Decca Beethoven box and the Philips Mozart set and they are wonderful....

Unfortunate use of "digititis" to describe your acoustic phenomena ..........
 
Well done Al!
 
All around nice job, Al (planning, installation and write-up)!

I look forward to hearing your system with this upgrade (perhaps this weekend)....
 
Thanks all for your comments and congrats!
 
  • Like
Reactions: Bodhi
Kingsrule said:
Al M


Thanks for the tip on the box set. I have the Decca Beethoven box and the Philips Mozart set and they are wonderful....
Click to expand...

You're welcome. Yes, these are great performances and recordings!

Unfortunate use of "digititis" to describe your acoustic phenomena ..........
Click to expand...

I have done this very consciously and on purpose. People who have complained about the treble heard from my system in my room have sometimes suggested or, as I sensed it, implied, that my digital may be at fault -- I should have mentioned that more explicitly. Thanks for giving me an opportunity to clarify.

As I alluded to above, too often digital has served as the easy culprit for problems that had their factual roots elsewhere, in electronics, speakers or room. This is not to say that there are no HF or other artifacts in some digital itself, and as I conceded my digital may not be perfect either in that respect. Other digital will be even better than my already very good set-up.
 
Bodhi said:
Al, thanks for the pics and detailed report on your room build and ASC room treatments. ASC is one of the 3 room acoustic companies I would approach to do the acoustics in my next, dedicated audio room incl: SMT & RPG. Your room is looking very good so far. How far along in the build are you? Or do you have it all done now?

Also I had a couple of random questions. Are you using their new IsoThermal tube traps? And obviously in this case you've installed the roof panels yourself, though can ASC handle the whole process from initial consultation through to installation? Looking forward to reading through the whole build process when i've got more time over the next couple of days. Cheers!
Click to expand...

I would suggest my room is mostly done, but perhaps I want to complete the acoustic treatment at some point with the IsoThermal tube traps that you mention, which specifically address deeper bass. My bass is already excellent, but you never know if it could be even better. And placing IsoThermal tube traps in the back corners of the room where, if I understand correctly, they would absorb the 'back wave' of the bass, might give some more acoustic benefits as well. I have regular tube traps on the front wall. -- I am not sure if ASC does home installations, best to ask them directly.
 
  • Like
Reactions: wil and Bodhi
I had the distinct pleasure of listening to Al's updated system yesterday, and there are some remarkable things to talk about. I had not heard Al's new Yggy2, Octave preamp, or ceiling panels, so my comments apply to the whole.

But first, let me address the following he recently wrote:

Several audiophile visitors have commented on the "big sound" in my room. Judging from my experience with other speaker systems, the quite large soundstage from the monitor/sub combo, also including great spatial depth especially on large-scale music, is unlikely to be bettered in this medium sized room by a multi-way floor stander. At the same time, with this speaker set-up, the intimacy and immediacy on small-scale music, which I crave and am not willing to give up, is quite something.

When trying to fill a considerably larger room with sound, the situation would be different -- there you absolutely need a big multi-way floor stander.
Click to expand...

I generally disagree with claims that mini-monitors can do big orchestral properly, and continue to do so. The operating word here is "properly". More on that later.

From the very first CD, it was obvious to me that the system was much more well behaved than ever before, especially in the treble region. Clarity all around went up a few notches, to the point that I felt Al is following the same path as my system in all sorts of ways, and beyond clarity, that included timbral accuracy and articulation as well. Funny enough, this also includes treble quality, as I have recently achieved in my system as well.

Yet once again, the real myth here is that amplifiers can be properly driven directly by DACs - something that Al was practicing for a few years. Then, he switched to a Pass active buffer, and now to the Octave. The improvement all along has been very obvious to me, and the Octave surpasses anything else he's done before. I've always maintained that a great preamp actually improves a system.

Al considers Octave's Andreas Hoffman the Keith Johnson of tubes, because his design goals include speed, and the result is obvious. Al said the preamp goes out to the MHz, just like my Spectral. Well, great, because tubes inherenty have extremely wide bandwidth!

Any sort of harshness we heard in previous auditions, was almost gone. This system even managed to resolve all details of Mahler's 2nd's finale, and I heard the same distortions I hear in mine - no system I've heard so far can properly render this piece. Where all monitors fall short, however, is in the size of portrayal of the orchestra. There is LOT to be gained by using larger speakers even in smaller spaces. Frankly, our fearless leader Steve's room is not much bigger than Al's, give or take, yet his Wilsons work really great. I can see Al moving up the speaker ladder in the years to come.

I really enjoyed the very high resolution of detail and timbre, the articulation, the well-behaved treble, the string tone (just really beautiful), and even the sibilance artifacts that I hear in my system as well on the same tracks. Really, really well behaved digital here! Great job!

This is a MAJOR step forward, and a really great system to listen to. I would still advise a lower chair, and a more comfortable one! Looking forward to spending more time with this system!
 
Thanks, Ack, for your visit, that was fun!

I am glad you enjoyed the system so much, and that you feel as strongly about its advances since your last visit as I do! I agree, in many ways our two systems follow the same path. The quality of the treble is now indeed so much better than before. In my estimation, the ceiling diffusers and the new Octave HP 700 preamp both contribute to that equally. For clarity and separation of instruments, the preamp was the major step forward.

I also learned something new yesterday, that is just how LOUD those monitors can play! I never listen to that CD of the Proteus 7 ensemble (2 trumpets, 2 trombones, tuba, miscellaneous) that loud (usually I don't go above 95 dBa), but I registered peaks of 99 dBA yesterday, which is around almost 105 dB. I couldn't believe how clean the sound was, with great dynamics and brass timbre that stayed full-bodied and did not become shrill. It seemed that the monitors just shrugged it off. My ears did not, they felt it afterwards, which is why I preferred to listen again at lower levels after this 10 minute episode. But boy, that was something.

By the way, the distortions on the choir in the Mahler 2 finale are on the recording. I will bring the Solti recording next time, and then you will hear how clean the choir will sound on your system.

ack said:
I really enjoyed the very high resolution of detail and timbre, the articulation, the well-behaved treble, the string tone (just really beautiful), and even the sibilance artifacts that I hear in my system as well on the same tracks. Really, really well behaved digital here! Great job!
Click to expand...

As I said before, probably very few have heard what the Yggdrasil DAC really can do, when fed properly (over very high-quality AES/EBU cable and, in this case, from great CD transport) and playing in a system of the high level of resolution that I have now with the Octave preamp in place. It's spectacular.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Jim Smith
Ack, as for speakers and soundstage size, I stand by my comment.

Steve's room is 15 feet wide, mine is mainly just 12 feet wide (with an extension to 13.5 feet wide at the small window bay). This difference is everything, even though my room is longer (yet his is also higher). There is no way that I could fit such large speakers like his Wilsons in my room, with sufficient image specificity to go with. Steve also purposely had his entire room built from scratch, with all the acoustic goodies that come with it; you cannot assume that you can position such a speaker in any room just 15 feet wide.

A smaller multi-way floor stander that would actually fit into my room is unlikely to portray the size of orchestra better -- in this particular room. And yes, my first priority is this intimacy on small-scale music that the monitors are so very good at, and I will not give it up under any circumstances. So I do think it to be unlikely that I will ever want to try something different than a monitor/sub system (not that I don't regularly hear larger speakers elsewhere), certainly not in this room.

To be convinced otherwise I would have to have an extensive audition of a high-quality multi-way floor stander in my own room, which is not easily going to happen. It would not just have to do both small scale and large scale in terms of quality at least at the same level as what I have now, but also present small scale in this room in the intimate way I prefer.

My ideal would be (at least) two different sized rooms, a large one -- certainly at least for orchestral -- and a medium-sized one like mine for portrayal of more intimacy, with two different systems featuring very different speakers. No single system in any single room can do it all perfectly well, and every system and set-up has inherent compromises. I feel very comfortable with the compromises that I have chosen, according to my own personal preferences, listening priorities and room situation.
 
  • Like
Reactions: the sound of Tao and bonzo75
You must log in or register to reply here.

Similar threads

DaveC
Introducing VolkSilver Cables by ZenWave Audio
Replies
6
Views
717
Zenwave Audio Cables
audiophilac1
A
Lee
Took some photos of the system today…
Replies
13
Views
731
General Audio Forum
Lee
Lee
C
SVS SB17 17" Subwoofer vs Rel 32 or JL 13"
Replies
14
Views
817
General Audio Forum
Paul172
Paul172
Mobiusman
My new Ultra 7/ 2 Shockwave System
Replies
8
Views
586
Von Schweikert Audio Speaker Forum
Mobiusman
Mobiusman
G
Tonearm Cable in a Shunyata wired system
Replies
2
Views
575
Shunyata Research Cable Forum
treitz3
treitz3

About us

  • What’s Best Forum is THE forum for high end audio, product reviews, advice and sharing experiences on the best of everything else. This is THE place where audiophiles and audio companies discuss vintage, contemporary and new audio products, music servers, music streamers, computer audio, digital-to-analog converters, turntables, phono stages, cartridges, reel-to-reel tape machines, speakers, headphones and tube and solid-state amplification. Founded in 2010 What’s Best Forum invites intelligent and courteous people of all interests and backgrounds to describe and discuss the best of everything. From beginners to life-long hobbyists to industry professionals, we enjoy learning about new things and meeting new people, and participating in spirited debates.

Quick Navigation

Home Forums

User Menu

Login
Top Bottom