My systems 1

[ddk]

Siemens K1 L405 of Klangfilm Bionors

40+ years ago many speaker manufacturers produced very light paper cones that went all the way to the basket glue area. No cloth. A famous one was the ElectroVoice SRO. 12 inch [305mm] / 25 pounds [11.4 Kilograms] due to the Alnico mangnet.
zz

Title for the commercial driver with the lightest and the fastest cone goes to the incredible Siemens K1 L405, 50hz-10000hz!



Made in the 1950's. Extremely robust, German quality at its best;



and used in the amazing Bionors.

I haven't heard anything else that even comes close the realism and transient speed of these speakers. Curious how Peppe's Yamamuras sound in this context.







david

 

[Pepe57]

Ah ok! I see now! Thanks

 

[zztop7]

Title for the commercial driver with the lightest and the fastest cone goes to the incredible Siemens K1 L405, 50hz-10000hz!
david

Is the cone of the driver 405 mm wide?
What is the OHM rating?

Thanks,
zz.

 

[ddk]

Is the cone of the driver 405 mm wide?
What is the OHM rating?

Thanks,
zz.

315mm and 7.5?, 15? with transformer.

david

 

[hvbias]

Two really nice systems! ddk- would you mind sharing more details about yours, ie rest of the drivers used, crossovers, etc?

And is the Lamm doing full range duty for the whole speaker?

 

[ddk]

Two really nice systems! ddk- would you mind sharing more details about yours, ie rest of the drivers used, crossovers, etc?

And is the Lamm doing full range duty for the whole speaker?

Yes, ML3's are doing full range duty. These Bionors are all factory original including the Kl. LZ 433 crossovers that came with it. I'll have a detailed list by end of the week in another section.

david

 

[Pepe57]

@ ddk: Yamamura Dionisio have no crossover only one single way driver tha should go fro 80 to 18.000 Hertz +/- 2 dB.
Low frequencies are improved (increased?) by the back horn that is about 18 feet long.
The declared efficency is 96 dB/W/meter maximum power they can support 40 watts
With the "big mouth" (there is also a smaller one) of 6 feet x 6 feet the lowest frequency they can reproduce (declared)
27 Hertz at - 2 dB (but in my opinion, i think that this, perhaps, could be true at no very high sound pressure level).
Thier strong point is the esay way they have to sound voices and instruments without steps an with natural dynamics
and timber.

 

[ddk]

@ ddk: Yamamura Dionisio have no crossover only one single way driver tha should go fro 80 to 18.000 Hertz +/- 2 dB.
Low frequencies are improved (increased?) by the back horn that is about 18 feet long.
The declared efficency is 96 dB/W/meter maximum power they can support 40 watts
With the "big mouth" (there is also a smaller one) of 6 feet x 6 feet the lowest frequency they can reproduce (declared)
27 Hertz at - 2 dB (but in my opinion, i think that this, perhaps, could be true at no very high sound pressure level).
Thier strong point is the esay way they have to sound voices and instruments without steps an with natural dynamics
and timber.

Ciao Alfredo,
Yes, your speakers are a different kind of breauty and would love to hear them. I only heard the smaller ones with his 1st generation driver and liked them very much. IMO out of the current group of famous Japanese designers I think that Yamamura is the most accomplished and the only one who's systems are musical. You certainly have the best of his and a unique customized system complete with electronics. What I remember from his smaller system was a beautiful coloration which I liked but didn't want, haven't heard the Dionisio with your driver which is different from what he had at the time of Yamamura Churchill, enjoy!

 

[drunkenrabbit]

I just caught up with this thread - Wow - just Wow - amazing systems.
Congratulations

Cheers
Andrew

 

[Pepe57]

Ciao Alfredo,
Yes, your speakers are a different kind of breauty and would love to hear them. I only heard the smaller ones with his 1st generation driver and liked them very much. IMO out of the current group of famous Japanese designers I think that Yamamura is the most accomplished and the only one who's systems are musical. You certainly have the best of his and a unique customized system complete with electronics. What I remember from his smaller system was a beautiful coloration which I liked but didn't want, haven't heard the Dionisio with your driver which is different from what he had at the time of Yamamura Churchill, enjoy!

Perhaps you have listened the Ariadne speakers? I had 2 pairs of them, one using the Cantus 150 second version and one with the third version.
I lied them but they are really good only for reproducing just few kind of music. If one liste just these kinds, i think he will be satisfied by this
speakers. But if there is a need to listen also other kind of music they will show their limits.
Pietro


PS: my name is Pietro not Alfredo

 

[Pepe57]

I just caught up with this thread - Wow - just Wow - amazing systems.
Congratulations

Cheers
Andrew

_Thank you.

Pietro

 

[ddk]

Perhaps you have listened the Ariadne speakers? I had 2 pairs of them, one using the Cantus 150 second version and one with the third version.
I lied them but they are really good only for reproducing just few kind of music. If one liste just these kinds, i think he will be satisfied by this
speakers. But if there is a need to listen also other kind of music they will show their limits.
Pietro


PS: my name is Pietro not Alfredo

Sorry, hi Pietro!

No, it was a Dionisio, don't remember the model but remember the sized and the cork finish, the looks are unforgettable. The Ariadne is a little monitor speaker and like you mentioned very limited in ability, at least not suitable for most western music. I don't know how many generations of Cantus were made but just by their nature I would assume that every driver would be somewhat different another, even in the same generation. At the time I had Axiom 80 drivers in custom designed back loaded horn cabinets and was fascinated with the Cantus, I just couldn't get a matching pair from them. As I recall The Dionisio was very impressive and had a lot of promise but it was part of Yamamura system and I felt that the final results left something to be desired and wanting more. Outside of the Cantus drivers I was never able to listen to any Yamamura component on their own, it was always part of a system,which sometimes worked great but often, it didn't. My guess was that his front ends were always the weakest links in the chain and affected everything else negatively. In any case, the sound was only part of it, being around Be you knew you were in company of an artist and his creations were always special.

david

 

[hvbias]

David or Pietro have you heard systems based around ALE or GOTO drivers?

 

[ddk]

David or Pietro have you heard systems based around ALE or GOTO drivers?

I have heard probably 12 or 13 Goto and Ale based systems in Japan, Taiwan and the US and for the most part, to put it mildly, they sucked. Ale & Goto sell a bunch of drivers, not speakers and even if they really are as good as they claim to be you need someone who knows what they're doing to put a speaker system together. The systems I heard typically were put together by audiophiles and pseudo experts. Bar none the bass was a joke in all of them following Goto cabinet designs or some old Altec drawings. Most were 4 or 5 way multi-amped designs and every driver was competing for attention, maybe they'd get somewhere if they started off with a simple two way? Even more pathetic sounding were the ones with digital crossovers and digital bass eq. On the whole I'm not a fan of Ale horns and their dispersion pattern, I like Goto's S-150B horn, it has a long throw and you can get a very interesting speaker if you know what you're doing. I'm not knocking Ale and Goto drivers, they could be as good as what people think, I simply don't know just that the final products I heard were really bad. I have other friends who heard several of these systems and a couple who even owned them but they all say the same thing. Its a tweaker's delight but music lover's nightmare. I also heard these drivers in combination with some vintage Altec, JBL and WE systems also with little or no success. While the original speaker sounded coherent and musical, these projects sounded discontinuous and often peaky.

For my money I would look for high end vintage horns that where properly designed and made by people who knew more than theory, many would cost quite a bit less than the systems I heard.

 

[hvbias]

I have heard probably 12 or 13 Goto and Ale based systems in Japan, Taiwan and the US and for the most part, to put it mildly, they sucked. Ale & Goto sell a bunch of drivers, not speakers and even if they really are as good as they claim to be you need someone who knows what they're doing to put a speaker system together. The systems I heard typically were put together by audiophiles and pseudo experts. Bar none the bass was a joke in all of them following Goto cabinet designs or some old Altec drawings. Most were 4 or 5 way multi-amped designs and every driver was competing for attention, maybe they'd get somewhere if they started off with a simple two way? Even more pathetic sounding were the ones with digital crossovers and digital bass eq. On the whole I'm not a fan of Ale horns and their dispersion pattern, I like Goto's S-150B horn, it has a long throw and you can get a very interesting speaker if you know what you're doing. I'm not knocking Ale and Goto drivers, they could be as good as what people think, I simply don't know just that the final products I heard were really bad. I have other friends who heard several of these systems and a couple who even owned them but they all say the same thing. Its a tweaker's delight but music lover's nightmare. I also heard these drivers in combination with some vintage Altec, JBL and WE systems also with little or no success. While the original speaker sounded coherent and musical, these projects sounded discontinuous and often peaky.

For my money I would look for high end vintage horns that where properly designed and made by people who knew more than theory, many would cost quite a bit less than the systems I heard.

Thank you, this is invaluable feedback. It's hard to find information on these two companies since many are in Asia, not that ALE would ever be a consideration given their prices... I have heard one of Jeffrey Jackson's systems that (I think) used GOTO drivers, but using his conical horns. This was early on when I was exploring horns, so my impressions aren't that useful. I am actually considering a full range (*gulp* including the bass) horn system that would be built around a listening room. From my research it seems like the more "modern" profiles like Tractrix and L'Cleac'h are more neutral.

 

[ddk]

Thank you, this is invaluable feedback. It's hard to find information on these two companies since many are in Asia, not that ALE would ever be a consideration given their prices... I have heard one of Jeffrey Jackson's systems that (I think) used GOTO drivers, but using his conical horns. This was early on when I was exploring horns, so my impressions aren't that useful. I am actually considering a full range (*gulp* including the bass) horn system that would be built around a listening room. From my research it seems like the more "modern" profiles like Tractrix and L'Cleac'h are more neutral.

Of course if you can manage it room built bass horn has a lot of potential, but like everything else the person doing the design work is key. As far as horn design goes you should listen to some of the better vintage speaker systems that are in original condition and properly setup with high end electronics before attempting anything on your own. Then you know what to aim for, another hobbyist's system as reference won't give you enough perspective. Its easy to be impressed by horns if you don't have enough experience until you hone in on its color. With a good horn system you wouldn't even know that you were to horns, all you should hear is the naturalness and ease of presentation, harder than you think specially given the dimensions and visual impact of some of these horn systems. Tractrix and L'Cleac'h are easy to design and produce that's why you see them everywhere and not because they're better. If you want to hear full range modern horn speakers done right look at Timber designed JBL K2 & Everest speakers. Their M9500 went down to 25hz, flat! Of course not a bass horn but phenomenal bass reproduction by any standards. I haven't heard the latest Everests under controlled conditions, only at shows with the horrible Levinson electronics but given Timber's history and expertise I would be surprised if they're anything but another milestone product.

david

 

[hvbias]

Of course if you can manage it room built bass horn has a lot of potential, but like everything else the person doing the design work is key. As far as horn design goes you should listen to some of the better vintage speaker systems that are in original condition and properly setup with high end electronics before attempting anything on your own. Then you know what to aim for, another hobbyist's system as reference won't give you enough perspective. Its easy to be impressed by horns if you don't have enough experience until you hone in on its color. With a good horn system you wouldn't even know that you were to horns, all you should hear is the naturalness and ease of presentation, harder than you think specially given the dimensions and visual impact of some of these horn systems. Tractrix and L'Cleac'h are easy to design and produce that's why you see them everywhere and not because they're better. If you want to hear full range modern horn speakers done right look at Timber designed JBL K2 & Everest speakers. Their M9500 went down to 25hz, flat! Of course not a bass horn but phenomenal bass reproduction by any standards. I haven't heard the latest Everests under controlled conditions, only at shows with the horrible Levinson electronics but given Timber's history and expertise I would be surprised if they're anything but another milestone product.

david

I've heard the JBLs twice with Levinson. They weren't systems I wanted to go back to listen to. A vintage Altec A7 system sounded like a roller coaster. The measurements I've seen for various L'Cleac'h horns with pro audio compression drivers have been very impressive. Just to give you some perspective of the type of sound I'm looking for- I love the Quad ESL57 and 63 in the midrange and that's the type of flat response and tonal colors I would be looking for in any future speakers. Except with much better dynamics and extension.

 

[ddk]

I've heard the JBLs twice with Levinson. They weren't systems I wanted to go back to listen to. A vintage Altec A7 system sounded like a roller coaster. The measurements I've seen for various L'Cleac'h horns with pro audio compression drivers have been very impressive. Just to give you some perspective of the type of sound I'm looking for- I love the Quad ESL57 and 63 in the midrange and that's the type of flat response and tonal colors I would be looking for in any future speakers. Except with much better dynamics and extension.

The Levinson electronics are horrible and a class D amplifier is the worst thing you can put on a horn speaker. As far back as I can remember their rooms were always crap sounding but you shouldn't judge their speakers based on shows. I can't comment on your A7 experience, it's very different from mine, VOTT can sound pretty good and convincincing but it certainly isn't in the super league.

Nothing sounds like the ESL57, not even the 63. What they do in their limited range and dynamics is unique to them, the nature of horns is different and have other strengths that Quads will never touch.

 

[Pepe57]

Sorry, hi Pietro!

No, it was a Dionisio, don't remember the model but remember the sized and the cork finish, the looks are unforgettable. The Ariadne is a little monitor speaker and like you mentioned very limited in ability, at least not suitable for most western music. I don't know how many generations of Cantus were made but just by their nature I would assume that every driver would be somewhat different another, even in the same generation. At the time I had Axiom 80 drivers in custom designed back loaded horn cabinets and was fascinated with the Cantus, I just couldn't get a matching pair from them. As I recall The Dionisio was very impressive and had a lot of promise but it was part of Yamamura system and I felt that the final results left something to be desired and wanting more. Outside of the Cantus drivers I was never able to listen to any Yamamura component on their own, it was always part of a system,which sometimes worked great but often, it didn't. My guess was that his front ends were always the weakest links in the chain and affected everything else negatively. In any case, the sound was only part of it, being around Be you knew you were in company of an artist and his creations were always special.

david

Yamamura made 3 different Dionisio. the 32 (that is aestetically littlem different and with a much littler motu, it seems like the PNOE speaker but with rectangular mouth).
Th Dionisio 27 with normal mouth (about 1.30 x 1.40 metter and horn long about 5.2 meters) and the Dioniso 27 with larger mouth (about 1.8 x 1.18 mt and horn of 5.5 meters long).
The numbers 32, 27 represent the lower frequency the speaker is able to reproduce (theoretically th 27 large mouth should be called 25).
Where have you listened the Dionisio?

 

[Pepe57]

David or Pietro have you heard systems based around ALE or GOTO drivers?

A friend has a 6 way ALE systm, full Horn using Exclusively Compression Driver (CD) in Permendule (P) as follows:
for sub bass using the CD Super 160 (100 kgs of P the CD) + Horn used from 15 to 100 Hertz
for bass/midbass using CD Super 126 (98 kgs of P the CD)+ horn from 100 to 300 Hertz
for Midbass/mid using CD Super 75 (80 kgs of P the CD) + horn from 300 to 1000 Hertz
for Mid/midhigh using CD Super 75 (80 kgs of P the CD) + horn from 1000 to 3000 hertz
for High using CD Super 45 (80 Kgs of P the CD) + horn from 3000 to 90000 Hertz
for Super using CD High Super 175 (80 Kgs of P the CD)

You can find the details of drivers and horn here:

http://www.aleacoustic.com/Drivers_Specifications.html
and here
http://www.aleacoustic.com/Horns.html

It is a 6 ways active multi amplified system. Be Yaamura has worked on it for around 2 years (and is still working). Usng 12 (twelve) amplifier working in current of Yamamura production, 6 stereo DAC just after the Digital xover and before the amplifiers.
The system is very big and thakes a lot of space.
But there is another audiophile/producer, Roberto delle Curti, living near me who owns a bigger horn subwoofer: http://www.royaldevice.com/customita1.htm
In any case, the ALE system after all this sert up time is really good, very dynamic and wirth a rich timber, low frequencies are very deep and fast with attack and decay really natural.
But it took more than 2 years (about 6 stay of Yamamura of more than 1 month each) and difefrent changments to arrive here...