Nagra HD Pre Amp arrived today

[davetheoilguy]

Who has tried different tubes in their HD Pre or Phono? I have RTC labeled Mullard 7308's in my phono stage and Amperex Miniwatt 7308's in my preamp. I think I like the Amperex better, more even, more dynamic, more extended. The mallards are still pretty darn nice with a bit of warmth and super quiet. (my HD pre came with mullards years ago, so my only experience is here mullards to Amperex)

What I am most curious about are Siemens CCA's from the 1960's. Any thoughts from someone who has tried the Siemens vs mullards/amperex?

In my prior Classic phono, I used mullards and loved them, but the HD phono is a different thing...

No, I've just got the new (I guess burned in 50 hours from the factory) matching tubes that come with the Nagra HD. It sounds so good that I haven't messed with it. Too busy dialing in the acoustics of my listening room. Lots of ladders, laser levels, and a patient wife as I hang a combination of skyline diffusers, slat diffusers, bass absorbers, etc.

Then testing with various software and some handheld equipment looking for where my problems arise --- and repositioning, removing, and adding.

I think I've finally got it dialed in. I have a near perfect curve. (And lots of cuts on my hands and a sore back. Oh, and a bump on my head from when a corner trap fell from 14 feet. Skyline diffusers, in particular, are exceptionally heavy, so I am very happy it wasn't one of those.)

 

[jfrech]

No, I've just got the new (I guess burned in 50 hours from the factory) matching tubes that come with the Nagra HD. It sounds so good that I haven't messed with it. Too busy dialing in the acoustics of my listening room. Lots of ladders, laser levels, and a patient wife as I hang a combination of skyline diffusers, slat diffusers, bass absorbers, etc.

Then testing with various software and some handheld equipment looking for where my problems arise --- and repositioning, removing, and adding.

I think I've finally got it dialed in. I have a near perfect curve. (And lots of cuts on my hands and a sore back. Oh, and a bump on my head from when a corner trap fell from 14 feet. Skyline diffusers, in particular, are exceptionally heavy, so I am very happy it wasn't one of those.)

Ouch !

 

[DoctorWhy]

I just purchased the HD preamp and have had similar experiences to John. I came from an Aesthetix Callisto signature with a bunch of NOS tubes. I really liked my Aesthetix and had it for many years. I listened to the Classic pre with MPS power supply (a must for this preamp IMHO) and really loved it. I was able to compare and preferred the Classic/MPS to the Koda and the ARC ref10. The Classic was more resolving with greater texture and color. It had a certain ease and beauty that none of the other preamps possessed.

Then I made the the mistake of taking the HD for a listen. Big trouble.... it’s really a game changer. Everything I loved about the Classic, the HD took to another, even happier place. It’s really interesting; I don’t think I’ve experienced a single audio component that made this fundamental of a change to the overall gestalt of music reproduction in my room before.

Wow, just wanted to reach out as I went down the same upgrade path from the Aesthetix Callisto Eclipse to the Nagra HD Pre. The difference was day and night. Have you gotten the upgraded balanced transformers??

 

[DoctorWhy]

Hi, never a dumb question. There is not a dac in the HD Preamp, its role is solely as a preamp for any source and following amp. So yes you do need a separate dac such as Tube DAC and HD Dac X from Nagra.

My dCS Vivaldi DAC can act as a preamp (it has a volume control). I greatly prefer using it with my Nagra HD Preamp than alone. I will say the transparency maybe a bit better with the DAC straight to the amps, but the overall portrayal of the music is better with a preamp.

As a building block approach, you can always start with something like a dCS DAC direct to amp, but one day you'll appreciate a good preamp....hope this helps

I concur. I had the same experience with my MSB Select II DAC and Nagra HD Pre

 

[davetheoilguy]

had the same experience with my MSB Select II DAC and Nagra HD Pre

I'm debating what DAC to get to pair with the Nagra HD Pre. Currently I just use the DAC that is internal to my Esoteric K-03XD SACD/CD transport. I understand it to be extremely comparable to the stand alone Esoteric DACs, if not identical. It's excellent, but there is room for more. Although I tend to think the DAC is the least benefit for the cost, given technology has progressed so fast. Cheap DACs can be pretty amazing, so it has to be a serious step up.

Contenders are one of the MSB line (probably the Reference; the Select just seems overkill, but maybe not); the Nagra HD DAC X (which I note you have); and the Mola Mola T- (fish name - Tiburon? Talapia? Something exceptionally stupid); and the top of the line Weiss model.

I've literally never heard any of these except the MSB Select, and it was at a friend's party, so I really didn't have a personal opinion about any of them. Based on reviews, the Mola Mola or the MSB seems to be the betters choice (ironically) for the Nagra HD, as both tend toward "bright" and "sharp" if there are any complaints and I think the Nagra would resolved that -- whereas I hypothosize (without knowledge) that two Nagras in a chain might be a tad sloppy. Again, that's my theory based on zero actual knowledge.

 

[jfrech]

I'm debating what DAC to get to pair with the Nagra HD Pre. Currently I just use the DAC that is internal to my Esoteric K-03XD SACD/CD transport. I understand it to be extremely comparable to the stand alone Esoteric DACs, if not identical. It's excellent, but there is room for more. Although I tend to think the DAC is the least benefit for the cost, given technology has progressed so fast. Cheap DACs can be pretty amazing, so it has to be a serious step up.

Contenders are one of the MSB line (probably the Reference; the Select just seems overkill, but maybe not); the Nagra HD DAC X (which I note you have); and the Mola Mola T- (fish name - Tiburon? Talapia? Something exceptionally stupid); and the top of the line Weiss model.

I've literally never heard any of these except the MSB Select, and it was at a friend's party, so I really didn't have a personal opinion about any of them. Based on reviews, the Mola Mola or the MSB seems to be the betters choice (ironically) for the Nagra HD, as both tend toward "bright" and "sharp" if there are any complaints and I think the Nagra would resolved that -- whereas I hypothosize (without knowledge) that two Nagras in a chain might be a tad sloppy. Again, that's my theory based on zero actual knowledge.

I'd add the dCS Vivaldi Apex to your list...great match with the Nagra HD Pre...

 

[davetheoilguy]

I'd add the dCS Vivaldi Apex to your list...great match with the Nagra HD Pre...

I agree. I went down a rabbit hole today thinking about stereo components instead of doing my work and that the dCS made the short list. I'm probably going to have to buy based on measurements, which I hate to do. That heavily favors the dCS and the Mola Mola T.

And there is the factor that the Mola Mola is nice and compact and would fit nicely next to my streamer on the same shelf. Ha. (Avoiding having to move things is not a small concern. I run my wires with serious OCD.)

 

[DoctorWhy]

I'm debating what DAC to get to pair with the Nagra HD Pre. Currently I just use the DAC that is internal to my Esoteric K-03XD SACD/CD transport. I understand it to be extremely comparable to the stand alone Esoteric DACs, if not identical. It's excellent, but there is room for more. Although I tend to think the DAC is the least benefit for the cost, given technology has progressed so fast. Cheap DACs can be pretty amazing, so it has to be a serious step up.

Contenders are one of the MSB line (probably the Reference; the Select just seems overkill, but maybe not); the Nagra HD DAC X (which I note you have); and the Mola Mola T- (fish name - Tiburon? Talapia? Something exceptionally stupid); and the top of the line Weiss model.

I've literally never heard any of these except the MSB Select, and it was at a friend's party, so I really didn't have a personal opinion about any of them. Based on reviews, the Mola Mola or the MSB seems to be the betters choice (ironically) for the Nagra HD, as both tend toward "bright" and "sharp" if there are any complaints and I think the Nagra would resolved that -- whereas I hypothosize (without knowledge) that two Nagras in a chain might be a tad sloppy. Again, that's my theory based on zero actual knowledge.

The Nagra HD DAC X is an excellent DAC. Initially, The MSB Select DAC II sounded a bit faster and more transparent than the Nagra DAC X, but the Nagra had better weight and tone. When I compared them with AQ Dragon power cable the differences pretty much disappeared. I wound up keeping the MSB only because I like its large display that I can read from listening chair. NOT because it sounded better. I am currently selling HD DAC X for a good price. PM me if interested. Would also consider selling MSB at right price and keeping NAgra.

 

[DoctorWhy]

I'm debating what DAC to get to pair with the Nagra HD Pre. Currently I just use the DAC that is internal to my Esoteric K-03XD SACD/CD transport. I understand it to be extremely comparable to the stand alone Esoteric DACs, if not identical. It's excellent, but there is room for more. Although I tend to think the DAC is the least benefit for the cost, given technology has progressed so fast. Cheap DACs can be pretty amazing, so it has to be a serious step up.

Contenders are one of the MSB line (probably the Reference; the Select just seems overkill, but maybe not); the Nagra HD DAC X (which I note you have); and the Mola Mola T- (fish name - Tiburon? Talapia? Something exceptionally stupid); and the top of the line Weiss model.

I've literally never heard any of these except the MSB Select, and it was at a friend's party, so I really didn't have a personal opinion about any of them. Based on reviews, the Mola Mola or the MSB seems to be the betters choice (ironically) for the Nagra HD, as both tend toward "bright" and "sharp" if there are any complaints and I think the Nagra would resolved that -- whereas I hypothosize (without knowledge) that two Nagras in a chain might be a tad sloppy. Again, that's my theory based on zero actual knowledge.

You can also "tune" the Nagra a bit with different tubes. The Lampizator Horizon also sounds great.

 

[davetheoilguy]

The Nagra HD DAC X is an excellent DAC. Initially, The MSB Select DAC II sounded a bit faster and more transparent than the Nagra DAC X, but the Nagra had better weight and tone. When I compared them with AQ Dragon power cable the differences pretty much disappeared. I wound up keeping the MSB only because I like its large display that I can read from listening chair. NOT because it sounded better. I am currently selling HD DAC X for a good price. PM me if interested. Would also consider selling MSB at right price and keeping NAgra.

You don't happen to have a link (or just know) the tech behind the actual DAC in the Nagra DAC, do you? I believe it's a Field Programmable Gate Array, but that really tells me little. There are a fair number of those and then it depends on who designed/how it is designed the software component. It's the core of any DAC. And Nagra seems to be very coy about its origins and specs, or I am looking in the wrong place.

I've managed to hear a Mola Mola Tambaqui and was very impressed. It's pretty analytical, but I think that is a good choice with the Nagra HD pre.

Similarly, I heard a DCS Vivaldi Apex One (includes an upsampler and CD transport), albeit under different conditions, so I couldn't do a A/B comparison. I really don't need/want the CD transport portion, so there is money being wasted there. But it was similarly fantasic.

It's really down to these three. The MSB, if I got it, should be the Reference. But I know me, so I'd end up buying Select, the external clock, etc, and pissing my wife off.

 

[DoctorWhy]

You don't happen to have a link (or just know) the tech behind the actual DAC in the Nagra DAC, do you? I believe it's a Field Programmable Gate Array, but that really tells me little. There are a fair number of those and then it depends on who designed/how it is designed the software component. It's the core of any DAC. And Nagra seems to be very coy about its origins and specs, or I am looking in the wrong place.

I've managed to hear a Mola Mola Tambaqui and was very impressed. It's pretty analytical, but I think that is a good choice with the Nagra HD pre.

Similarly, I heard a DCS Vivaldi Apex One (includes an upsampler and CD transport), albeit under different conditions, so I couldn't do a A/B comparison. I really don't need/want the CD transport portion, so there is money being wasted there. But it was similarly fantasic.

It's really down to these three. The MSB, if I got it, should be the Reference. But I know me, so I'd end up buying Select, the external clock, etc, and pissing my wife off.

The MSB Select with 2 Power bases contains everything you need. Yep, the very best clock made, the 33 Femto Clock. Nothing else to buy, but it is fantasticly expensive as is. The Reference has one power base which is noisier. All of my comparisons between the Nagra HD DAC X and MSB were to the MSB SELECT II. They were neck and neck. Against the Reference, hands down I would take THE NAGRA!
That is entirely by ear in my room in my system judging from the sound of The Select DAC vs the HD DAC X.

 

[davetheoilguy]

The MSB Select with 2 Power bases contains everything you need. Yep, the very best clock made, the 33 Femto Clock. Nothing else to buy, but it is fantasticly expensive as is. The Reference has one power base which is noisier. All of my comparisons between the Nagra HD DAC X and MSB were to the MSB SELECT II. They were neck and neck. Against the Reference, hands down I would take THE NAGRA!
That is entirely by ear in my room in my system judging from the sound of The Select DAC vs the HD DAC X.

I don't doubt, for a second, the HD DAC X is fantastic, just based on my Nagra HD pre. I also know the Mola Mola, Vivaldi, and MSB are fantastic.

I'm just deeply curious about the actual digital conversion on the Nagra. Ladder? FPGA (what I believe)? It's just an amazing void of information.

I'm sure there's a great article out there, probably written in French or something that I just can't find.

 

[jfrech]

I don't doubt, for a second, the HD DAC X is fantastic, just based on my Nagra HD pre. I also know the Mola Mola, Vivaldi, and MSB are fantastic.

I'm just deeply curious about the actual digital conversion on the Nagra. Ladder? FPGA (what I believe)? It's just an amazing void of information.

I'm sure there's a great article out there, probably written in French or something that I just can't find.

Hi, FPGA, listed in Nagra's HD DAC X webpage...also a video with a little more info...

 

[davetheoilguy]

Thank you.

Hi, FPGA, listed in Nagra's HD DAC X webpage...also a video with a little more info...

That’s all I could find, too.

By the lack of information, I’m getting the impression that the DAC X has an amazing preamp side (dual mono, “typical”’Nagra perfection on the power supply side, but a nice, but nothing Earth shaking digital side. I’m suspecting the analog side is so excellent the digital side can coast along, but is really something you’d see in a nice Arcam or Levinson.

well, that fantastic analog side is wasted (too strong a word) on someone with a Nagra Pre, where I already have that strength covered.

Makes me want Nagra to go parter with Mola Mola and stick their ring chipset (which is remarkable tech) into the digital side of the Nagra HDX and have something game changing. Talk about the best of both worlds.

 

[gtplans]

Wow, just wanted to reach out as I went down the same upgrade path from the Aesthetix Callisto Eclipse to the Nagra HD Pre. The difference was day and night. Have you gotten the upgraded balanced transformers??

I've been reading the multiple threads and discussions regarding the Nagra gear. I've been an audiophile junky for over 40 years now. StilI working towards the elusive Holy Grail system. I just joined this forum looking for some help on setting up my new Nagra HD preamp. I upgraded from a heavily modified Carey SLP-05. The Nagra is excellent in most ways however it's a little on the bright side so not as warm as I'm used too. The factory installed tubes are the Russian Genalex which I believe is the reason. Any suggestions on a matched pair of vintage tubes? I like the vintage Mullards and Marconi's in my Carey. Not sure if that's the best choice or also considering the Phillips mini-watts. Also I want to replace the factory power chord. Any ideas or shared experience would be great. My system includes the new Dartzeel amp and Evolution Acoustics MM3 with reference Morrow cables. DAC is a recently upgraded/ modified PS Audio Perfect Wave ll.
Greg

 

[davetheoilguy]

I've been reading the multiple threads and discussions regarding the Nagra gear. I've been an audiophile junky for over 40 years now. StilI working towards the elusive Holy Grail system. I just joined this forum looking for some help on setting up my new Nagra HD preamp. I upgraded from a heavily modified Carey SLP-05. The Nagra is excellent in most ways however it's a little on the bright side so not as warm as I'm used too. The factory installed tubes are the Russian Genalex which I believe is the reason. Any suggestions on a matched pair of vintage tubes? I like the vintage Mullards and Marconi's in my Carey. Not sure if that's the best choice or also considering the Phillips mini-watts. Also I want to replace the factory power chord. Any ideas or shared experience would be great. My system includes the new Dartzeel amp and Evolution Acoustics MM3 with reference Morrow cables. DAC is a recently upgraded/ modified PS Audio Perfect Wave ll.
Greg

@gtplans

I don't have any specific tube advice, but I bought my system used and so ordered a matching pair of stock tubes, just on the basis of having a fresh start (and the case was cracked open anyway due to a giant capacitor busting loose in shipping). They had about 50 hours on them from the factory, but were decidedly bright until about 100 hours (total) in, and then dramatically mellowed out. So you may just want to wait a bit.

As far as cord, I have no recommendations. While I think interconnects can make a difference (and strongly encourage the use of XLR with the Nagra HD), any quality cord will do just fine. The Nagra's power supply is so isolated from the working bits, I'm just not worried about the main transmitting noise into the system proper. Similarly, it's well-designed, so I strongly doubt it's using the power cord to transmit garbage out via the cord that can be picked up by the interconnects throughout your system (especially if you running XLR/balanced throughout your system). Just get one long enough you can properly route it without it touching anything. Where you have to cross another line, cross at 90 degrees. People can save a ton of money on cables with some OCD on how you run your wires. (Plus, it's just pleasing to look at, when you fiddle with your system.)

 

[gtplans]

@gtplans

I don't have any specific tube advice, but I bought my system used and so ordered a matching pair of stock tubes, just on the basis of having a fresh start (and the case was cracked open anyway due to a giant capacitor busting loose in shipping). They had about 50 hours on them from the factory, but were decidedly bright until about 100 hours (total) in, and then dramatically mellowed out. So you may just want to wait a bit.

As far as cord, I have no recommendations. While I think interconnects can make a difference (and strongly encourage the use of XLR with the Nagra HD), any quality cord will do just fine. The Nagra's power supply is so isolated from the working bits, I'm just not worried about the main transmitting noise into the system proper. Similarly, it's well-designed, so I strongly doubt it's using the power cord to transmit garbage out via the cord that can be picked up by the interconnects throughout your system (especially if you running XLR/balanced throughout your system). Just get one long enough you can properly route it without it touching anything. Where you have to cross another line, cross at 90 degrees. People can save a ton of money on cables with some OCD on how you run your wires. (Plus, it's just pleasing to look at, when you fiddle with your system.)

Thanks Dave,
Good sound suggestions. The cables can be a huge rabbit hole and I wondered whether the Nagra would benefit due to the advanced isolation and overall design as much as my Cary SLP-05 in my other system did.

 

[Zeotrope]

By the lack of information, I’m getting the impression that the DAC X has an amazing preamp side (dual mono, “typical”’Nagra perfection on the power supply side, but a nice, but nothing Earth shaking digital side.

@gtplans
While I think interconnects can make a difference (and strongly encourage the use of XLR with the Nagra HD), any quality cord will do just fine.

Just to clarify a couple of somewhat old points:
1. The digital side of the HD DAC X is in fact VERY well thought through. In fact, Nagra partnered with the guy who literally invented DSD. Read more by searching for the HD DAC or Tube DAC, the predecessors to the HD DAC X.

2. Nagra actually recommends RCA, not XLR connections. XLR connections run through about double the number of components, and in most cases more components = worse sound. XLR should only be used for VERY long runs, like 15m or longer.

 

[Jpspock]

Little question to Nagra hd preamp owner. Which power cord are you using?

 

[jfrech]

Little question to Nagra hd preamp owner. Which power cord are you using?

Hi I've been using Transparent Opus Power into a Transparent Opus Power Isolator. Ditto my HD Phono