"Natural" Sound

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Now that I have been listening to essentially only vinyl for the past several months I have to concur. In retrospect I believe RonR who started this thread did so with the fact that he was only listening to vinyl at my house.
Good for you Steve. As for me in my personal system, it has been just 15 years ago when I stop listening digital. (except car and I phone)

Good start with AFO since you won't waste a second thinking about upgrading. Happy spinning!!
 
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Well, now that I think about it, I've made a third contention, to-wit: Amir is spot on. Natural, more natural, call it what you wish, doesn't tell me anything about the sound, it just tells me one really enjoyed it. And so I've beat this dead horse more than once and I'm done.

“That kid’s a natural…”

That sentence tells me a lot. Whether it be related to sports, or music, or some other human endeavour, it contains meaning apropos our collective experience as a species.

It tells me that the person in question seems to require less effort in the application of their abilities in order to attain a certain level of performance. Conversely, I think we’re aware of those who seem to “try too hard” to do something similar.

I don’t see why the audio reproduction mechanism needs to be excluded from the category of human socio-cultural endeavours in which performance is described using terminology that’s widely employed in other spheres of life. Especially when used to describe a system of particularly high electrical sensitivity requiring less of the partnering amplification in order to achieve the same relative sound pressure level. Coincidence? Perhaps not.
 
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So much discussion over semantics ....
does it sound good to to you or not...
Exactly. Negotiating the marketplace to find what sounds good is the problem.
 
Never had that problem , there are multiple amps and speakers i could live with happily ever after , just follow your feeling and what sounds good to you , if you constantly chase magazines/ reviewers/dealers then you have a problem
Good for you. But this is a hobby, It is the nature of humans to be dissatisfied.
 
Good for you. But this is a hobby, It is the nature of humans to be dissatisfied.

Why does it have to be a hobby to constantly upgrade? I am very satisfied with my system now, even though of course I know it can always be better.

If you can never be satisfed, you are always looking for flaws and you can never truly enjoy the music on your system. And that is a perversion of the hobby: isn't enjoyment of the music the original goal?
 
“That kid’s a natural…”

That sentence tells me a lot. Whether it be related to sports, or music, or some other human endeavour, it contains meaning apropos our collective experience as a species.

It tells me that the person in question seems to require less effort in the application of their abilities in order to attain a certain level of performance. Conversely, I think we’re aware of those who seem to “try too hard” to do something similar.

I don’t see why the audio reproduction mechanism needs to be excluded from the category of human socio-cultural endeavours in which performance is described using terminology that’s widely employed in other spheres of life. Especially when used to describe a system of particularly high electrical sensitivity requiring less of the partnering amplification in order to achieve the same relative sound pressure level. Coincidence? Perhaps not.

A system can sound effortless and unnatural at the same time.

That aside, the most effortless and natural sound I have heard was in a system with Magico M Project speakers. These are rather demanding in power and were driven by the large Pass XS 150 amps. So I don't believe that sensitivity necessarily equals effortlessness.

My rather sensitive minimonitors can easily be driven to high volumes in my room by my 2 x 15 W parallel push-pull triode monoblocks (my subwoofer is self-powered). Yet still the sound, while being extraordinarily dynamic, is not quite as effortless as in the system just mentioned (that system features excellent dynamics as well). I love it nonetheless.
 
So much discussion over semantics ....
does it sound good to to you or not...

Sounding natural is a quality that some systems system can have, a system can still sound good but not necessarily sound natural... it can still sound great on electronica and a whole range of synthesized and electronic based music where there is no natural reference.

The quality that systems that don't sound natural have is that they have a synthetic quality to the sound that comes from artifacts that aren't necessarily awful or unpleasant sounding... just lacking the tonality that is so easy to hear in a natural sounding system when playing acoustic or unamplified instruments.

Its a fairly useful description to communicate a quality of how a system can sound and I'd always assumed it was a fairly universally understood quality amongst the audio brethren but agreed there does seem to be a surprising amount of argument over the semantics on it.
 
Sounding natural is a quality that some systems system can have, a system can still sound good but not necessarily sound natural... it can still sound great on electronica and a whole range of synthesized and electronic based music where there is no natural reference.

The quality that systems that don't sound natural have is that they have a synthetic quality to the sound that comes from artifacts that aren't necessarily awful or unpleasant sounding... just lacking the tonality that is so easy to hear in a natural sounding system when playing acoustic or unamplified instruments.

Its a fairly useful description to communicate a quality of how a system can sound and I'd always assumed it was a fairly universally understood quality amongst the audio brethren but agreed there does seem to be a surprising amount of argument over the semantics on it.

Tao, the first thing I liked about the Animas were they were natural.
 
Why does it have to be a hobby to constantly upgrade? I am very satisfied with my system now, even though of course I know it can always be better.

If you can never be satisfed, you are always looking for flaws and you can never truly enjoy the music on your system. And that is a perversion of the hobby: isn't enjoyment of the music the original goal?

Flaws are like trouble. They will find you.
 
Tao, the first thing I liked about the Animas were they were natural.
Ked, was lucky enough to have a few of the Tune horns at home for the last few months... the Animas are completely natural, not at all your aggressive horn, nuanced, layered and compelling. Ended up using them downstairs as the scale of the room worked really well with them. Here is an early pic from day 1 just getting them positioned, ended up running with all 300B Manley 300B pre and 300B monos in the end, with a Wilson Benesch Torus and a Aqua La Scala Mk2 with transport and Aurender, Wireworld Platinum Eclipse, Shunyata Anaconda PCs and SRA amp stands. Bit of an audio highlight and yes absolutely natural... and not to mention pretty joyful.
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Good for you. But this is a hobby, It is the nature of humans to be dissatisfied.
I must be a different species of human then.
 
Flaws are like trouble. They will find you.

Only if you allow them to. It's all in your mind.

It also depends on the nature of the flaw, of course. I could not live with the artificially recessed image on many recordings in my room; the acquisition of window plugs remedied the issue. Since then (July this year) I am a happy listener. On the other hand, I have heard even better timbral resolution than I have in systems other than mine. Can I live with that? Sure. It doesn't affect the impact of the music in a detrimental fashion like the recessed images did. Could I obsess about better timbral resolution? Sure I could. But I don't; the resolution is on a high level already and I know to value that. It's all in your mind.
 
I respect the attempts to "objectify" home audio playback, but there are a couple things going on here: one, an attempt to rationalize everything into the same terms, when much of it is art. Every recording sounds different. And each listener has a preference. Saying that a system is accurate, or linear or well designed from an engineering standpoint tells me something, but it doesn't tell me how it will play or whether I will like the results. I've listened to archival restorations of acetates and old pre-war transcriptions that were brought to life through digital manipulation, played back over big studio monitors driven by big solid state amps. They were vivid and amazingly visceral, despite the limitations of the original recording and all the tweaking that was done to restore them. I have listened to big, state of the art systems that I didn't like because they sounded "too hi-fi" to me. To someone else, the same system may press their buttons.
For me, and I know my biases pretty well, I need to have a very clear, but not harsh, and grainless midrange. I can live with sins of omission, like no super deep bass (I'd rather a roll off than forceful but discontinuous bass). Many systems fail on this level because of the recordings or masterings, and replace it with 'WoW' stuff- audiophile spectaculars that may demonstrate how "fantastic" a system sounds, but leave me hungry for something of more musical interest. That, in turn, leads to another subjective area- the music that turns you on.
I think once you get a system to a certain level of quality, much has to do with the source material, how it was recorded, mastered and manufactured. Whether you can force-fit all of these variables into one rational scheme labelled 'natural' is pretty difficult. I suppose that's why most "audiophiles" like jazz and classical recordings- the potential for less gimmickry. Unfortunately, I like a lot of music beyond those genres, so I'm forced to search out good pressings of music I like. Some don't really exist- the recording just isn't that good, no matter how you splice or dice it, remaster or remix it. I live with it. But, to me, the midrange is the starting point. If it isn't "right" to my ears, all the rest is beside the point. What's right? To me, it is an in the room quality without cues that a machine is playing the thing. How often does that happen? Sometimes, on good recordings. Can a system do it all? Dunno- I have never heard a system that is utterly seamless- you hear the machinery at some point- whether it is a limitation of the recording or system.
All of this, I think, is why it is so difficult to bridge the gap between the objective and subjective schools. (I don't know if that is now a taboo subject here, I apologize if I am raising this in a way that is inappropriate- not trying to be provocative). I just don't know how you can, at the end of the day, rationalize into some predictable schema, all of the above. As a result, "natural sounding" is really in the eye (ear) of the beholder. I had a guy here recently- a drummer- listening to a Vertigo press of Master of Reality- he was blown away by the details of the drumming that he had never heard - though he had listened to the recording--different mastering, different system- hundreds of times. To him, and he has good ears and solid musical values, I'd bet he'd call it 'natural.' And in some ways, I wouldn't disagree, though it wouldn't be high on my list of examples of such recordings.
 
Thanks for such a wonderful perception Bill.

So when RonR started this thread he had a certain concept of natural and thanks to all of the others who feel that such a term can be appropriate to use. I have found since listening to vinyl my definition of natural pervades my senses such that I am a happy camper. Please don't think that I am saying one cannot achieve a natural sound without vinyl but for my ears I remain very pleased with where I am so following the mantra of "it must sound natural" is where I am headed. I hope after 257 posts in an otherwise innocent intended thread members can understand where I and others want to take our systems and understand the meaning of such
 
Great post, Bill.
 
A guess for educated readers. Who wrote the following sentence about discrete center channels? (less educated readers can use google :D)


"Listeners comparing a discrete center channel with a phantom center image
generated by a stereo pair in a normal room consistently rated the phantom
image higher in perceptual dimensions of width, elevation, spaciousness, envelopment,
and naturalness. In a situation where the discrete center sound was
unsupported by any sounds from other loudspeakers, this is consistent with
expectations."

Microstrip,

Without a context or shared experience this quote is just as meaningless as Ron’s use of “natural”. What the heck is a discrete center image? a normal room? phantom image? discrete center sound? consistent with expectations?????

Just other words to indicate anything we please when describing complex and multidimensional experiences - by what’s happening via imagination in our own heads.


Furthermore, why does one have to be educated in this hobby? Who deems is so? And what should this education consist of? And how will this consistency be enforced?

Why not just turn on the system put on any recording you like for the music it contains and get lost in the music?
 
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