Natural Sound

[Phoenix Engineering]

Otherwise consumers will always correlate more accurate with better sounding.

IME, there is a correlation. It's not the only determining factor, but it is one of many components.

My main point has been that the accuracy of mains is better than what we need in turntables speed accuracy.

Mains accuracy can vary considerably, not only with geography, but with time of day. I don't agree with your assessment and apparently, neither do a lot of users and mfrs. Regenerative power supplies are quite a popular accy., and most users report positive reports when employing them.

It's OK if you don't agree, I can respect that. But stop trying to convince those who have tried it and hear an improvement that they are using flawed logic. I don't believe exotic cables make any difference in SQ (above a minimum quality level of cable), at least not in my listening experience, but maybe I have poor hearing. I certainly don't argue with people regarding what they purport to hear or not hear. If I want to go on record as to not agreeing to the benefit of exotic cables, I do so, then move on.

As you know the TimeLine only presents qualitative raw data we must analyze.

Yes, and it's not difficult to analyze: If you are concerned about accuracy or stability, more is better as long as the improvement yields a perceived increase in sound quality.

 

[microstrip]

Mains accuracy can vary considerably, not only with geography, but with time of day. I don't agree with your assessment and apparently, neither do a lot of users and mfrs. Regenerative power supplies are quite a popular accy., and most users report positive reports when employing them.

Regenerative power supplies are a must mainly because of waveform shape, not frequency. In fact most of them are synchronized with the mains frequency to avoid creating low frequency beats.

It's OK if you don't agree, I can respect that. But stop trying to convince those who have tried it and hear an improvement that they are using flawed logic.

It is part of our discussions in WBF - we freely present our points of view. And if someone says something is an improvement we expect him to give us details and perhaps say why.

I don't believe exotic cables make any difference in SQ (above a minimum quality level of cable), at least not in my listening experience, but maybe I have poor hearing. I certainly don't argue with people regarding what they purport to hear or not hear. If I want to go on record as to not agreeing to the benefit of exotic cables, I do so, then move on.

Oops, oops ...

Yes, and it's not difficult to analyze: If you are concerned about accuracy or stability, more is better as long as the improvement yields a perceived increase in sound quality.

Happy to disagree on the accuracy ranking, not on the stability as it is much harder to measure properly.

 

[PeterA]

I'll defer to Peter with regards to what he was addressing and what he felt was relevant or useful in making improvements to his system.

Thank you Bill. Six pages and 80 posts ago, I wrote hoping to share my enthusiasm for my new Micro Seiki turntable. I mentioned, ergonomics and aesthetics, and I described what I heard through my system. I mentioned that the natural sound I heard was really the combination of cartridge, arm, and support structure. It is surely also the phono cable and the rest of the system, but the point is that this table is the heart of my source component and there is not a lot written about this table now because it is old and few at WBF have one. This is what I wrote:

I would like to say a few things about the amazing Micro Seiki SX 8000 II turntable. After the AS2000 that I heard at both Rockitman's and @ddk's, it is the finest source component I have heard. I think the NOS SME 3012R tonearm, the low output van den Hul Grand Cru cartridge, and the new rack with massive stainless steel plates with resonance control that I use as a platform, contribute to the overall presentation.

I love the ergonomics, the aesthetics, the ease of use, and the extremely high build quality. It is close to forty years old now, but it is performing beautifully in my new system. I am hearing such a natural sound, full of nuance and resolution. Images are extremely stable and I am hearing more information retrieved from the grooves than I have from any turntable aside from the AS2000.

One aspect of the turntable's sound is its speed performance, both in terms of accuracy and in terms of stability or consistency. These are two separate aspects. Belt tension affects the sound and slightly alters the speed. Speed is fine tuned by adjusting two pots, one for each speed. Having tested two of my former turntables with the TimeLine, my SME Model 30/12 and my Denon direct drive DP145, I was impressed with the results of the Micro Seiki. I made two videos to share the results using dynamic conditions for those who might be interested. I also wanted to show that the turntable is built and designed to a very high standard and that the engineering is superb.

My intent in sharing the two videos was simply to demonstrate this turntables' excellent performance, both in terms of accuracy - 33.333 - and in terms of stability - +/- 0.002 RPM. I also wanted to demonstrate the visual consistency between the two measuring devices, and that the speed stability did not alter when placing the needle in the groove or by placing the TimeLine on the spindle. The two videos demonstrate that and that is why I made and shared them in this thread. Here is what I wrote regarding the speed:

I recently recorded two videos that show both the speed accuracy and stability using two measuring devices: the Road Runner tachometer and the Sutherland TimeLine. The tests are under dynamic conditions, that is I play an LP but I also lift and lower the cartridge into the groove and I place and remove the Timeline from the platter. The speed variation is roughly +/- 0.002 RPM or 33.331 to 33.335. This is extremely accurate and the minute fluctuation in speed is not at all audible. If anyone has ever tried to use these two measuring devices to test a turntable speed, especially under dynamic conditions, it can be a very humbling experience. I have seen the TimeLine strobe dash migrate around the room wildly. I have tested a number of different tables, and only the Direct Drive Technics SP10 mk 3 matched the performance of the Micro Seiki. I suspect the AS2000 is as good or better. I [suspect] the best direct drive and idler tables perform well with these tests, but that very few belt drive tables do.

I have seen the effects of stylus drag on my old SME. It performed quite well, but I always set the speed with an LP playing music. It does not matter when I adjust the speed pots on the Micro Seiki because the dynamic force of stylus drag does not seem to affect the speed. This speed stability results in a very solid, stable sound, most importantly in presenting the lower frequencies and bass lines, but also in lessening high frequency distortion. This may also be responsible for the superb and very subtle ambient information I am hearing.

I am now beginning to fully appreciate the reputation this fine turntable has earned and of which @ddk has written.

I do not know how accurate or speed stable a turntable must be before our perception of the music changes and it affects our enjoyment of the music. I do think some degree of accuracy and stability are necessary for a natural sound, but they are not sufficient for a natural sound. For that, much more is required of a turntable, including how it deals with resonances for example.

I do think that good speed accuracy (pitch) affects timbre, and good speed consistency affects things like image solidity and stability, and perhaps dynamics, all of which depend in some part on things not being blurred. I also mentioned hearing more low level ambient cues. I do not know the thresholds or tolerance necessary for these sonic attributes or perceptions to be affected, but I do know that good speed results improve these things.

The TimeLine did show speed instability with my former belt drive table. There was belt creep due I presume to stylus drag because I noticed it during heavily modulated music passages. I saw the strobe dash on the wall increase and decrease in length, although it did remain more or less stationary on the wall. At the time, I did not associate this visual result with what I heard. The Timeline dash is more stable in location and in dimension with the Micro Seiki. The sound is better in the ways I describe above. I now think that the speed consistency measurement has something to do with this.

The SME belt is compliant and the Micro Seiki belt is not. The platters have very different mass, and the motors are different, so I presume many factors are at play here. The extent to which the speed results matter is unclear to me, but they do matter.

I understand that people may focus on other more important aspects on turntable performance and they are surely free to criticize my posts. That is fine. I do appreciate that these videos and two measuring tools have led to what is becoming an interesting discussion. One friend wrote me privately that "the videos clearly demonstrate that the Micro Seiki is a well engineered turntable. He also acknowledged that the "flawed" TimeLine functioned well on my particular turntable. That is what I wanted to show with the videos.

 

[Phoenix Engineering]

Regenerative power supplies are a must mainly because of waveform shape, not frequency. In fact most of them are synchronized with the mains frequency to avoid creating low frequency beats.

I'm OK with everything in your post except this. I've dissected dozens of designs and none of them are synchronized to the mains; stable frequency is the most important factor, it is their raison d'etre. I've designed many of these supplies and all of them use a crystal reference, as do most of the commercial designs.

Sinewave purity is important up to a point; Mark Kelly has a theory in favor of a small amount of in-phase 3rd harmonic to flatten the peaks in an effort to reduce cogging on some motors, but I don't know how effective it is. The idea is to reduce the drive level when the PM rotor passes closest to the metal stator core to level out the variable reluctance at the point. Getting vanishingly small distortion at the output is difficult at best, since most designs use a step up transformer and the core hysteresis will make distortion levels <0.25% all but impossible.

There shouldn't be a beat frequency with the power supply unless the output amp has terrible PSRR, it is over driven into clipping or the power supply filtering is poor.

 

[microstrip]

I'm OK with everything in your post except this. I've dissected dozens of designs and none of them are synchronized to the mains; stable frequency is the most important factor, it is their raison d'etre. I've designed many of these supplies and all of them use a crystal reference, as do most of the commercial designs.

Well, from the PS Audio P10 manual - " After the AC Regenerator inside your Power Plant 10 has synchronized with your incoming power, your system will power up automatically."

The ExactPower P15 was also synchronized to mains. I noticed it because I wanted to operate my devices at 60 Hz and they could not operate at 60Hz here, as we have 50 Hz. I am not sure if the issue was legal or technical. The problem was debated here when Krell and a few other manufacturers began selling equipment in the US that sensed the 50Hz and would not operate in Europe. I am not sure if currently the issue is legal or technical. With 60Hz power transformers would operate here at a lower flux and more silently. Please note that at that time I was considering high power regenerators, not lower power intended mainly for turntable motor or source components.

Sinewave purity is important up to a point; Mark Kelly has a theory in favor of a small amount of in-phase 3rd harmonic to flatten the peaks in an effort to reduce cogging on some motors, but I don't know how effective it is. The idea is to reduce the drive level when the PM rotor passes closest to the metal stator core to level out the variable reluctance at the point. Getting vanishingly small distortion at the output is difficult at best, since most designs use a step up transformer and the core hysteresis will make distortion levels <0.25% all but impossible.

Adding small amounts of harmonics to the main frequency in synchronous drives was referred in text books. I can't understand how people still use step up transformers to drive 110V motors - a compatible bridge amplifier can be easily designed. I used the step transformers myself because I am an amateur in electronics ...

There shouldn't be a beat frequency with the power supply unless the output amp has terrible PSRR, it is over driven into clipping or the power supply filtering is poor.

 

[ddk]

People can use what they want - even a strobe. The fact that they show differences only prove that they are very sensitive.

Not really, it only shows that the strobes are all off and you can end up with the wrong speed not knowing which one to trust.

Yes, it is surely more convenient than a strobe. I am astonished how humanity managed to survive for tens of year listening to vinyl without such instrument.

We're getting older convenience is important . My strobes made tens or years ago seem to function properly it's the modern ones that are off.

Nice to see we share the same view on high end audio objectives. But I like mostly modern recordings ...

Whatever rocks your world Francisco, it's all good.

david

 

[Phoenix Engineering]

Please note that at that time I was considering high power regenerators, not lower power intended mainly for turntable motor or source components.

Yeah, that makes sense. Most of those aren't frequency agile or very limited if they are; not a lot of utility if you want to control speed with it. That explains your comments about wave shape and frequency.

I can't understand how people still use step up transformers to drive 110V motors - a compatible bridge amplifier can be easily designed.

It's easier and cheaper at low voltages and chip amps are readily available complete with over current and temp protection built in. Chip amps that operate at 350V rails and high power are not cheap ($180/channel). I did a 3 channel HV directly coupled amp using discretes that will drive a 50W 3 phase motor, so it is doable, but I wouldn't call it easy.

 

[bazelio]

Not really, it only shows that the strobes are all off and you can end up with the wrong speed not knowing which one to trust.

We're getting older convenience is important . My strobes made tens or years ago seem to function properly it's the modern ones that are off.

Whatever rocks your world Francisco, it's all good.

david

I like my Roadrunner. Not so that I can obsess over 0.001 RPM fluctuations. But because every so often my TT controller inexplicably powers up and the speed has reset itself. Maybe once in 6 months. It's nice to see this immediately and quickly readjust the speed than wonder why the system sounds a bit off that day. I actually turn it away from the seating position most of the time while listening, to avoid the distraction.

 

[tima]

If our ears are not sensitive to typical LP eccentricity I am sure that they are not sensitive to speed accuracy variations of the forth figure.

Listening to music I believe our ears are more sensitive to rotational accuracy and stability than we might realize and in ways we may not expect. For example, I heard a difference between a table with 0,0007% (7ppm) peak error from 33? rpm and one with 0,0001% (1ppm) peak error from 33? rpm as improved dynamic control. I heard an orchestra sound what I'll describe as more organized during complex passages, as lower frequency rhythm sections held on to their tempos and volumes without muddle or looseness.

If you go looking for such differences between tables with different levels of stable accuracy you might not realize what you're hearing. For myself, in retrospect, it was a process of discovery - hearing sonic differences, improvements, then asking to what can I attribute these - ultimately there was only one explanation.

 

[tima]

I do not know how accurate or speed stable a turntable must be before our perception of the music changes and it affects our enjoyment of the music. I do think some degree of accuracy and stability are necessary for a natural sound, but they are not sufficient for a natural sound. For that, much more is required of a turntable, including how it deals with resonances for example.

I do think that good speed accuracy (pitch) affects timbre, and good speed consistency affects things like image solidity and stability, and perhaps dynamics, all of which depend in some part on things not being blurred. I also mentioned hearing more low level ambient cues. I do not know the thresholds or tolerance necessary for these sonic attributes or perceptions to be affected, but I do know that good speed results improve these things.

Yes!

Stable accuracy is a necessary condition. Another is low noise along with some effort at vibration management (isolation+damping).

 

[microstrip]

Not really, it only shows that the strobes are all off and you can end up with the wrong speed not knowing which one to trust.

I assume you are calling strobes to the pulsed light sources. If they are faulty or not calibrated it is not a problem of the method, but of of these particular units. Discard the poor ones and keep the good ones. Just checked the mains frequency online and it is 50.008 now - I do not need a strobe light! But you are right - $10 clocks are extremely accurate, why should the audio industry be so sloppy?

We're getting older convenience is important . My strobes made tens or years ago seem to function properly it's the modern ones that are off.

What is more convenient than using the light close to the turntable to set the speed with a strobe disk? The EMT 927 had a maisn strobe - at the time I got it considered replacing the lamp with my $5 50Hz pulsed LED but when I found that the difference was less than .03% I gave up. Did you consider engraving a strobe in the AS2000?

 

[microstrip]

Listening to music I believe our ears are more sensitive to rotational accuracy and stability than we might realize and in ways we may not expect. For example, I heard a difference between a table with 0,0007% (7ppm) peak error from 33? rpm and one with 0,0001% (1ppm) peak error from 33? rpm as improved dynamic control. I heard an orchestra sound what I'll describe as more organized during complex passages, as lower frequency rhythm sections held on to their tempos and volumes without muddle or looseness.

If you go looking for such differences between tables with different levels of stable accuracy you might not realize what you're hearing. For myself, in retrospect, it was a process of discovery - hearing sonic differences, improvements, then asking to what can I attribute these - ultimately there was only one explanation.

You are mixing accuracy and stability , your post is of little help to debate these parameters or correlate it with sound quality. IMHO this kind of broad statement only help to create myths.

From https://www.apogeeinstruments.com/uniformity-repeatability-stability-and-accuracy/

Stability deals with the degree to which sensor characteristics remain constant over time. Changes in stability, also known as drift, can be due to components aging, decrease in sensitivity of components, and/or a change in the signal to noise ratio, etc. Amplified pyranometers from Apogee Instruments illustrate this concept well with a stability of less than 3% per year. In other words, each year, under normal conditions, one can expect the sensor’s readings to change by less than 3%.

Accuracy, analogous to uncertainty relative to a reference, is in its simplest terms the difference between measured and “true” values. During calibration, measurements are compared to a reference, ISO or NIST traceable where available. Accuracy is determined by performing a general expanded uncertainty analysis, where all of the systematic and random uncertainties are combined using ISO uncertainty standards.

Probably turntable speed should be analyzed in terms of accuracy and precision - it is what maps the classical parameters . I would say that your Monaco is a high accuracy, high precision instrument. BTW, searching the words stability, precision and precise in the GrandPrix whitepaper will also illustrate these aspects. These people are audio engineers!

.

 

[morricab]

Yes!

Stable accuracy is a necessary condition. Another is low noise along with some effort at vibration management (isolation+damping).

Agree, even though I don't have a modern DD like yours my two vintage Japanese ones (Yamaha GT-2000 and Exclusive P10) are still basically on the cutting edge of DD with regard to motor technology and concept for speed regulation...they are the two best measuring TTs that I have measured with my Allnic Speednic. It is a strobe but you can see very small fluctuations in speed. All of the belt drives we tried with this show slight fluctuations with a record actually playing (Allnic works while playing records so needle drag is observable). The DDs show no fluctuations whatsoever. Now, I did not have a chance to use it with a very high mass platter (15Kg+), so it is quite possible that they wont' show anything.

 

[morricab]

You are mixing accuracy and stability , your post is of little help to debate these parameters or correlate it with sound quality. IMHO this kind of broad statement only help to create myths.

From https://www.apogeeinstruments.com/uniformity-repeatability-stability-and-accuracy/

Stability deals with the degree to which sensor characteristics remain constant over time. Changes in stability, also known as drift, can be due to components aging, decrease in sensitivity of components, and/or a change in the signal to noise ratio, etc. Amplified pyranometers from Apogee Instruments illustrate this concept well with a stability of less than 3% per year. In other words, each year, under normal conditions, one can expect the sensor’s readings to change by less than 3%.

Accuracy, analogous to uncertainty relative to a reference, is in its simplest terms the difference between measured and “true” values. During calibration, measurements are compared to a reference, ISO or NIST traceable where available. Accuracy is determined by performing a general expanded uncertainty analysis, where all of the systematic and random uncertainties are combined using ISO uncertainty standards.

Probably turntable speed should be analyzed in terms of accuracy and precision - it is what maps the classical parameters . I would say that your Monaco is a high accuracy, high precision instrument.

View attachment 82215.

Where would you categorize the following: low mass belt drive with DC motor, Low mass belt with AC sync motor. High mass platter belt with AC or brushless DC (with say sinusoidal commutation): Old idler drive (EMT, Thorens, Garrard, Lenco etc.), DD pre-1975, DD post 1975 and modern DD (since 2000?). Modern DD is, like you have said for the Monaco likely High accuracy and High precision.

 

[microstrip]

Where would you categorize the following: low mass belt drive with DC motor, Low mass belt with AC sync motor. High mass platter belt with AC or brushless DC (with say sinusoidal commutation): Old idler drive (EMT, Thorens, Garrard, Lenco etc.), DD pre-1975, DD post 1975 and modern DD (since 2000?). Modern DD is, like you have said for the Monaco likely High accuracy and High precision.

We must analyze the measurements of the speed and compare them. Any old turntable review carries some of them. All we need is establishing what is low and high in terms of values, besides considering the weighting system for precision.

 

[PeterA]

Agree, even though I don't have a modern DD like yours my two vintage Japanese ones (Yamaha GT-2000 and Exclusive P10) are still basically on the cutting edge of DD with regard to motor technology and concept for speed regulation...they are the two best measuring TTs that I have measured with my Allnic Speednic. It is a strobe but you can see very small fluctuations in speed. All of the belt drives we tried with this show slight fluctuations with a record actually playing (Allnic works while playing records so needle drag is observable). The DDs show no fluctuations whatsoever. Now, I did not have a chance to use it with a very high mass platter (15Kg+), so it is quite possible that they wont' show anything.

Brad, can you share the results using the Allnic on a video? Member @Halcro once demonstrated his results with his Victor DD table dropping three arms measuring with the TimeLine.

 

[PeterA]

We must analyze the measurements of the speed and compare them. Any old turntable review carries some of them. All we need is establishing what is low and high in terms of values, besides considering the weighting system for precision.

Many reviews simply quote what the manufacturer tells them. I would like to know the measuring technique used.

Since you are so keen on understanding what threshold is necessary, do any of these reviews
you cite discuss this?

Did you ever measure your old SME 30, the EMT, or the TechDAS air force one? If so, what method did you use and what were the results?

 

[bonzo75]

Ha! We were at the same concert. What did you think of his performance?

Chop, in this thread there are some Winterreise recordings since we discussed the Malvern concert here. The open ambience are Malvern reminded me quite a lot of this Peter schreier Richter recording. https://www.whatsbestforum.com/threads/videos-show-me-male-vocals.31387/#post-675194

 

[Phoenix Engineering]

Where would you categorize the following: low mass belt drive with DC motor, Low mass belt with AC sync motor. High mass platter belt with AC or brushless DC (with say sinusoidal commutation): Old idler drive (EMT, Thorens, Garrard, Lenco etc.), DD pre-1975, DD post 1975 and modern DD (since 2000?). Modern DD is, like you have said for the Monaco likely High accuracy and High precision.

Categorize them as far as what? Speed accuracy and stability? It all depends on the implementation. DC motors require compensation (current feedback) or there will be a negative torque/speed slope. AC synch motors have constant speed, but a belt driven platter does not because of belt creep, even if the motor is constant speed. All of the idler drives you listed use AC induction motors which are quasi-synchronous and will slow under load, but have tighter coupling between motor and platter (also potentially higher noise). Lenco made high mass and low mass platters. DD almost by definition should have high accuracy and stability. You can have very good performance with any of these drive methods or relatively poor performance, depending on how each drive system is implemented. I don't think you can just generalize about them.

As I posted previously, speed accuracy and stability are only one component that contributes to SQ. You also need to consider the drive implementation, plinth, tone arm, bearing, pulley accuracy, belt material and tension, damping and cartridge. And of course, you have to listen to the table which will be connected to which phono-pre, amp, speakers, room acoustics/treatments? Difficult to draw any useful conclusions without more specifics.

 

[Chop]

Chop, in this thread there are some Winterreise recordings since we discussed the Malvern concert here. The open ambience are Malvern reminded me quite a lot of this Peter schreier Richter recording. https://www.whatsbestforum.com/threads/videos-show-me-male-vocals.31387/#post-675194

Thank for the link Ked, appreciate you remembering my interest !