Natural Sound

[Al M.]

Another thing, following up on my previous post:
Music by definition develops in time (unlike a painting, for example).

Thus, you can experience it only as a whole if you consciously follow its unfolding in time (this holds especially for anything more complex than a simple song). And this conscious activity involves analysis: recognizing in one's mind all the parts (e.g., melodies, themes, motifs, variations, musical sections) that make up its building blocks, and how they develop and connect in time.

Otherwise the music becomes a simple "oh, it has a beginning and an end, yeah, also some nice parts in between and, hey, it all sounds great, too". That is a fragmented experience, not the experience of music as a whole.

I'll be the first to concede that sometimes -- or if I'm honest, rather often -- I am perfectly happy with such a fragmented experience myself.

Yet be it a Stockhausen piece, a Beethoven string quartet, a Lee Morgan jazz piece or Schubert piano sonatas (those are complex too!), only with a deliberate, analytical, concentrated effort and often only upon repeated listening can I truly experience the music as a whole.

 

[Ron Resnick]

Does this analogy to a movie in a theater help to cut through the gauze?

-- The movie starts, an hour and a half later it is finished, and you realize that you have been transfixed without distraction or interruption for the entire duration of the movie. You look down at your watch and you can't believe the time passed so quickly.= holistic, emotionally-engaged listening experience, connecting to the music.

-- The movie starts, and after a while you realize that you are noticing the perimeter of the screen, the light fixture sconces on the wall, the heads in front of you, soft whispering behind you, you check your watch = discrete sonic attributes experience, analytical, not emotionally-engaged.

 

[Al M.]

Does this analogy to a movie in a theater help to cut through the gauze?

-- The movie starts, an hour and a half later it is finished, and you realize that you have been transfixed without distraction or interruption for the entire duration of the movie. You look down at your watch and you can't believe the time passed so quickly.= holistic, emotionally-engaged listening experience, connecting to the music

-- The movie starts, and after a while you realize that you are noticing the perimeter of the screen, the light fixture sconces on the wall, the heads in front of you, soft whispering behind you, you check your watch = bits and pieces (discrete attributes) experience, analytical, not emotionally-engaged.

Nice analogy, Ron, but it doesn't quite hold. Music is often much more abstract than a story unfolding on a screen, which is taken out of the concreteness of life's experience and thus mostly doesn't require much more to follow along than a basic level of attention (snoozing probably not recommended). And that abstraction of music requires more effort to follow its narrative, it's "story". Unless, as I said, it's a simple song.

 

[caesar]

So I suppose, by your own words, you don't really understand either what Peter means by "natural".

Correct. I have no idea. Neither do people who have not visited. People can read whatever they want about how a potato chip tastes or what an orgasm feels like, but don't really have a clue until they experience it. This is just fundamentals of psychology of subjectivity

 

[caesar]

As far as I understand it, "Natural Sound" includes inserting Lamm gear in a system. The best explanations of it existed in the Lamm site, that is now inaccessible. Michael Fremer review of the Lamm ML3 touches some aspects of it.

But I think it's also Lamm with vintage horn speakers and vintage vinyl. Spectacular I am sure, but...

 

[Folsom]

As far as I understand it, "Natural Sound" includes inserting Lamm gear in a system. The best explanations of it existed in the Lamm site, that is now inaccessible. Michael Fremer review of the Lamm ML3 touches some aspects of it.

Bonzo has posted numerous other stereos he would qualify, with no Lamm gear in them.

But I get what you mean. Unfortunately you pretty well have to discover everything else for yourself if it’s electronics.

 

[Bobvin]

I was watching the recently dropped Jeff Fritz video interview with Kinstantinos of Pilium (over in the Pilium thread) and K repeatedly described wanting to create a very “natural” sounding amplifier. I think Lamm amps are, dare I say “warmer“ than Pilium, but I look forward very much to others thoughts when they’ve had the chance to hear them. Just today I was sharing Pilium and Diesis (horn/open baffle hybrids) and there was a smooth, liqiud, “natural” sound but I have no idea if my ‘natural’ is anything like Peters?

(maybe this weekend I’ll drop a video)

 

[Tango]

I wonder if a bunch of guys bombard threads with a different term say "believable sound", assigned a set of attributes to it, would people get annoyed or feel sick in the stomach as when a bunch of guys use the term natural sound regularly? What actually make readers nausea, the person who write or how he write or the greasy oily food they had before reading.

 

[Tango]

I was watching the recently dropped Jeff Fritz video interview with Kinstantinos of Pilium (over in the Pilium thread) and K repeatedly described wanting to create a very “natural” sounding amplifier. I think Lamm amps are, dare I say “warmer“ than Pilium, but I look forward very much to others thoughts when they’ve had the chance to hear them. Just today I was sharing Pilium and Diesis (horn/open baffle hybrids) and there was a smooth, liqiud, “natural” sound but I have no idea if my ‘natural’ is anything like Peters?

(maybe this weekend I’ll drop a video)

Hi Bob. The word warmth would not be associated with Lamm at all if you use professional or industrial cords/ wire. And the Lamm is always an espresso not a cappucino.

 

[bonzo75]

Bonzo has posted numerous other stereos he would qualify, with no Lamm gear in them.

I would qualify hose videos to sound like a nice representation of a a stereo that represents real live sound, or what would connect to an auditory template formed from exposure to live sound.

The issue on this thread is that the natural sound definition has gone through a few iterations/explanations/debates and may or may not be what I have written in the previous sentence, so I stay out of it. And worse it keeps cropping up all the time. I do not see any point in going back to threads and discussing what HP wrote and what he may or may not have meant and what NS is. This is a global forum with various styles and competencies of writing English, I see what I can interpret from what the guy has written, what he likes, and often get it wrong irrespective of how good a writer he is. It all comes together when you sit and listen with him and then follow him on a regular basis,. Rest is just OCD on what part of the forum keeps one engaged in daily debates, and for me NS and HP debates are tediously repetitive and boring.

 

[PeterA]

Hi Bob. The word warmth would not be associated with Lamm at all if you use professional or industrial cords/ wire. And the Lamm is always an espresso not a cappucino.

Yes, and just today someone told me that Lamm is described as "dark" sounding by some reviewers. I told him I do not know what that term means. I agree, I would not associate warmth with Lamm. I have never tried any audiophile wires with Lamm.

A friend has been listening to my system for about a year. He recently started to buy Lamm gear. He found a nice LL1 Signature, has his sights on a pair of ML2s, and is trying to decide on what Lamm phono to get. He told me he just read a great review of the LP2.1 Deluxe that some guy named Tim something or other wrote. I smiled and told him I was recently in Utah with THAT same Tim. He smiled and understood. You see, this friend just returned from spending five days at ddk's place and bought his new vintage speakers based on what he heard there. They will arrive next week from Japan. He also has a Micro SX 8000 II that he bought from ddk shortly after hearing mine a year ago. I've never heard him use the words warmth or dark to describe the sound of Lamm gear.

 

[PeterA]

I wonder if a bunch of guys bombard threads with a different term say "believable sound", assigned a set of attributes to it, would people get annoyed or feel sick in the stomach as when a bunch of guys use the term natural sound regularly? What actually make readers nausea, the person who write or how he write or the greasy oily food they had before reading.

I wrote a list of characteristics that I heard from all four systems that David Karmeli played for me when I visited him. Because all four of those systems sounded natural to me, I suggested that for me these are the characteristics of natural sounding systems. People still seem to have trouble with that list.

 

[Folsom]

I would qualify hose videos to sound like a nice representation of a a stereo that represents real live sound, or what would connect to an auditory template formed from exposure to live sound.

The issue on this thread is that the natural sound definition has gone through a few iterations/explanations/debates and may or may not be what I have written in the previous sentence, so I stay out of it. And worse it keeps cropping up all the time. I do not see any point in going back to threads and discussing what HP wrote and what he may or may not have meant and what NS is. This is a global forum with various styles and competencies of writing English, I see what I can interpret from what the guy has written, what he likes, and often get it wrong irrespective of how good a writer he is. It all comes together when you sit and listen with him and then follow him on a regular basis,. Rest is just OCD on what part of the forum keeps one engaged in daily debates, and for me NS and HP debates are tediously repetitive and boring.

 

[tima]

Why de-capitalize it? "Natural Sound," as practiced by David and as adopted and written about by Peter and by Tim, means something deliberately more specific than merely sound which is generically natural. In other words "Natural Sound" is a subset of natural sound.

Ron, you are again trying to cast boundaries on what I was saying, which for the most part was historical exposition about the discussion we've had over the past 5+? years. "Natural Sound" is the name of Peter's system thread. There is apparently something you call Natural Sound that is not Peter's system thread name, and "sound which is generically natural" -- I don't know if the latter refers to audio reproduction or to what it refers. I don't remember whether David capitalized the words but he may have but mostly I don't think he did.

I was talking about the broader discussion. Although you may not intend it, you recognize what I"m talking about by claiming "Natural Sound" is a subset of natural sound. I don't need to understand what the two categories mean to understand something being a subset of something else.

I suggest looking back at looking back at threads that are not Peter's system thread.

"Natural" Sound

I reported that I found that Steve's system playing vinyl sounded very "natural." As our self-designated hyperbole and introspection control policeman am I guilty of hyperbole when I describe a system's sound as "natural"? What do we mean by "natural" when we say an audio system sounds...

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David Karmeli's Natural Sound in Utah

David Karmeli’s Natural Sound in Utah In early December 2020, I made the decision to ask David Karmeli (ddk) if he could find me a Micro Seiki SX 8000 II turntable. He told me that it would take about a month to locate and then a bit more time to arrive in Utah. He would then give it a full...

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along with the discussions of natural sound in Karen's thread, or the Roy Grgory thread, or my Forget it Jake its Audiophile thread, or the thread The language of Reproduction and the language of Music. There are others. I think an historical perspective helps understand how the discussion about natural sound has evolved and to see where our ideas have stablized or changed or simply run in a circle.

You do not appear recognizing of my response to your question about why I used the word 'dichotomy.' And now you're asking me to explain or justify what I said wrt capitalization when that same response already said to you I was referring to "the broader discussion of natural sound, since way before Peter's system name."

Why this ankle-biting? It does not advance the discussion.

 

[Bobvin]

Goodness, I did not say Lamm is warm. I said I thought perhaps, in comparison to Pilium Lamm is “warmer”. Is a very slight matter of degree, not cold vs warm. Don’t automatically assign based on a term, read the context!

 

[andromedaaudio]

Why de-capitalize it? "Natural Sound," as practiced by David and as adopted and written about by Peter and by Tim, means something deliberately more specific than merely sound which is generically natural. In other words "Natural Sound" is a subset of natural sound.

Lol,
Ron do you have a sollicitor background .
I thought natural sound was all about keeping it natural / simple.
So are we talking about natural sound here or the subset?

 

[tima]

Goodness, I did not say Lamm is warm. I said I thought perhaps, in comparison to Pilium Lamm is “warmer”. Is a very slight matter of degree, not cold vs warm.

I have not heard any Pilium gear so relatively speaking Lamm may be "warmer" than Pilium to a degree as you speculate. If that is the case, Pilium may not be for me, but I'd listen to one.

Which Lamm amps have you heard that are slightly warmer than Pilium?

 

[tima]

Yes, and just today someone told me that Lamm is described as "dark" sounding by some reviewers. I told him I do not know what that term means. I agree, I would not associate warmth with Lamm. I have never tried any audiophile wires with Lamm.

Talking about sonic characteristics, here's what I wrote of the Lamm M1.2 in my 2015 review:

Some find the overall sound of the M1.2 as slightly dark; and by contrast with certain amps there is that relative difference. I found the M1.2s sounding whole within themselves, and from the perspective of their overall presentation, music teemed with harmonic information, with the antonym of their tonality being not light but lean. Overall frequency balance lacked discontinuity; there was no coming forward or peakiness from the likes of sopranos or trumpets, and no midbass enhancement.

And in the Grand Cru thread:

If Lamm is dark then the opposite of dark in this case is not light, but lean. I consider Lamm as having more dense or more complete low-mid to low frequency tone and harmonics which is how I interpret comments about dark.

Edit: when I wrote that M1.2 review I was using audiophile cables. Tang's mention about the use of industrial wire with Lamm is spot-on. I did not fully appreciate the character of the Lamm sound until I used certain ordinary wire.

 

[Ron Resnick]

Some find the overall sound of the M1.2 as slightly dark;

Peter,

Tim must be referring here to the same "some" to whom I was referring earlier. Hopefully, Tim remembers to whom he was referring here.

As to why those "some" find the overall sound of Lamm "slightly dark" -- you would have to ask them.

I, personally, do not consider Lamm to be "dark sounding." I think it sounds perfect! (In comparison to CH Precision, Soulution, Boulder, etc., I think Lamm can be considered "slightly dark-sounding.)

 

[Tango]

Goodness, I did not say Lamm is warm. I said I thought perhaps, in comparison to Pilium Lamm is “warmer”. Is a very slight matter of degree, not cold vs warm. Don’t automatically assign based on a term, read the context!

i didn't misunderstand you Bob. I really don't mind the term warm or warmer. And I am not defending Lamm...only giving you my experience. I just never felt warm or warmer comparing Lamm to other brand of electronic. I have also listened to systems with Pilium 4-5 times. I added the use of type of cords/wire Mr.Lamm used when he designed his products so that people would hear how the creator intended us to hear his products. Actually We should ask all the designer of gears what their associated gears were when they made their product.