Natural Sound

Do you mean that no matter how much you have spent on your playback system, it still doesn't sound "natural". So, IMHO, to protect your own self esteem you substitute "accurate" for "natural" so that you can argue your system sounds "natural" because it is, in your opinion, more "accurate". Semantics, but if it helps you from having a mental breakdown ...
LMAO … Having a wee mid life menopausal crisis are we ?
If you are incapable of responding to a civil question with civility then I shall reciprocate.

For the record I rather liked the Vids that Kedar has posted of your System , I like the weight of tone and texture and image scale that Altec horn’ do rather well …That said is your system either Accurate therefore ‘Natural’ to the same passages of classical performance that I have heard in venues around London and other Cities around Europe … Nope , Do your transducers impart their own interpretation of the recorded performance , a colouration ?
 
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The inconvenient truth is that there is absolutely no correlation between musical tastes and experience and the choice of systems.
I'm not so sure about this. I have friends that like music for the most part, electronically produced. Amplified equipment and synthesizer keyboards. Close mikes singers and very studio mastered recordings. These people enjoy a ported box speaker with very powerful solid state amplifiers. Lots of subs. And I have to admit, for what they're playing, It performs at a very high level. It's a perfect stereo for them.

That same stereo does not play classical very well. One of those people even told me he won't play classical music as it doesn't sound very good on his stereo.
 
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I'm not so sure about this. I have friends that like music for the most part, electronically produced. Amplified equipment and synthesizer keyboards. Close mikes singers and very studio mastered recordings. These people enjoy a ported box speaker with very powerful solid state amplifiers. Lots of subs. And I have to admit, for what they're playing, It performs at a very high level. It's a perfect stereo for them.

That same stereo does not play classical very well. One of those people even told me he won't play classical music as it doesn't sound very good on his stereo.

I do not doubt that.

And yet Bonzo shares videos of Brahms and Black Sabbath on the same SET/horn type systems where both genres sound equally convincing to me. “What up wit dat” to quote that funny guy on SNL?

I think that some system configurations excel at specific genres while others are able to sound good playing a greater variety of music. And those systems that can play all music convincingly are the best.
 
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LMAO … Having a wee mid life crisis just now ?
If you are incapable of responding to a civil question with civility then I shall reciprocate.

For the record I rather liked the Vids that Kedar has posted of your System , I like the weight of tone and texture and image scale that Altec horn’ do rather well …That said is your system either Accurate therefore ‘Natural’ to the same passages of classical performance that I have heard in venues around London and other Cities around Europe … Nope
Thank you for your kind words regarding the weight, tone and texture of my system, I rather like it as well. Do I think it sounds the same (Accurate, in your vernacular) to a live classical performance, no, no system I have ever heard has. The question is whether it comes close enough to "suspend your disbelief" (I believe that is the often bandy'd term). No system I have ever heard has, but some come close. And, if I were pressed to describe what it was about the sound of the system that came close to suspending my disbelief, I would say it sounds more like real instruments playing in space, more "natural". Some of the traits which systems that do this have is "weight, tone and texture" of real instruments, which is why I thank you for telling me I achieved that, but more importantly, natural sound shouldn't focus the listener's mind on those aspects but instead only convey the experience.

Have "you" ever heard any system sound indistinguishable from un-amplified acoustical instruments playing live? If so, what was it about that system that makes you think "accurate"?
 
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Thank you for your kind words regarding the weight, tone and texture of my system, I rather like it as well. Do I think it sounds the same (Accurate, in your vernacular) to a live classical performance, no, no system I have ever heard has. The question is whether it comes close enough to "suspend your disbelief" (I believe that is the often bandy'd term). No system I have ever heard has, but some come close. And, if I were pressed to describe what it was about the sound of the system that came close to suspending my disbelief, I would say it sounds more like real instruments playing in space, more "natural". Some of the traits which systems that do this have is "weight, tone and texture" of real instruments, which is why I thank you for telling me I achieved that, but more importantly, natural sound shouldn't focus the listener's mind on those aspects but instead only convey the experience.

Have "you" ever heard any system sound indistinguishable from un-amplified acoustical instruments playing live? If so, what was it about that system that makes you think "accurate"?
P.S. I guess I took your system video as an example in my post above. The video is nice. The comment about tonality was "theoretical".'..

Videos do often distort the frequency response due to microphones and room reflections which are sometimes emphasized (I don't know why).
 
I'm not so sure about this. I have friends that like music for the most part, electronically produced. Amplified equipment and synthesizer keyboards. Close mikes singers and very studio mastered recordings. These people enjoy a ported box speaker with very powerful solid state amplifiers. Lots of subs. And I have to admit, for what they're playing, It performs at a very high level. It's a perfect stereo for them.

That same stereo does not play classical very well. One of those people even told me he won't play classical music as it doesn't sound very good on his stereo.

I am sure you can find counter examples, as you have. What I meant more generally is that many people who listen to acoustical non-amplified music do choose a variety of systems, not just the typical SET driven high sensitivity speakers.
 
Saying so does not make it so.

What is your definition of "natural"?

What is your definition of "accurate"?
'Natural' and "Accurate' are exactly the same thing as I described earlier. Synonymous in every way. If its not accurate its not natural and if not natural certainly not accurate. What we cannot do is be truthful to the musical event. That is because whatever it was, the recording is all we have. But we can be truthful to that, so however the recording is, the reproduction will be as true to the recording as possible if its 'accurate' or 'natural'.

Put another way, you are hobbling yourself for no good reason if you see a distinction between these two terms.

BTW there are exactly zero designers of audio equipment that do not rely on measurements. They all use Voltmeters for example. I'm pretty sure all of them have an oscilloscope and a signal generator. The word 'measurements' has sadly become a word that inspires a knee-jerk reaction. No doubt a lot of this has to do with so-called 'objectivists' that discount the subjective experience and think nothing is real if its only anecdote. That's exactly the same kind of mistake the subjectivist camp makes when it discounts measurements. The truth lies somewhere between as Daniel von Recklinghausen stated!!

Put another way its possible to use engineering to design equipment that obeys the rules of human hearing just as its possible to design equipment that gets you good numbers on a spec sheet. That is what Vladimir was up to. Its also possible to design equipment that gets you good specs on paper and also obey human hearing rules. Its that last bit that a lot of people don't seem to understand. When it has good specs and also obeys human hearing rules then it will be both accurate and natural.
I am sure you can find counter examples, as you have. What I meant more generally is that many people who listen to acoustical non-amplified music do choose a variety of systems, not just the typical SET driven high sensitivity speakers.
Like ones that actually can play the sound pressures of a real orchestra without sounding loud

I'm not referring to those types of "modest" systems.

The inconvenient truth is that there is absolutely no correlation between musical tastes and experience and the choice of systems.
This is because the rules of human hearing are universal across the entire population of the planet. What we do with those rules is another matter; there's no accounting for taste.
That same stereo does not play classical very well. One of those people even told me he won't play classical music as it doesn't sound very good on his stereo.
Then something is dreadfully wrong with it and it can't play rock very well either (or he's not figured out that there's really big differences in recording quality from label to label and just has bad classical recordings...). Electronics don't have taste and no designer has ever figured out how to make any kind of electronics (including loudspeakers) favor a certain musical genre. The idea that a speaker like the JBL L100 is good for rock is 100% myth. They play classical just as well (or badly, depending on your perspective). Because musicians all share the same rules of human hearing like the rest of us, they tend to spread the musical message over the same band of frequencies in exactly the same way whether death metal or classical.

BTW you can record an electric guitar in a way that sounds natural and accurate or you can record it so it doesn't. The natural sound of it in a recording will sound like the musician is playing the electric guitar in front of you. As a hint, the way to do this is to not place the mic directly in front of the guitar cabinet's driver but instead get back about as far as you might if you were actually there listening to him play. And for heaven's sake use a decent microphone?? You aren't going to get it right with a Shure SM57. Neumanns work very well for this purpose! There's no need for cheap mics in a recording studio unless you're looking to create an effect.
 
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I am sure you can find counter examples, as you have. What I meant more generally is that many people who listen to acoustical non-amplified music do choose a variety of systems, not just the typical SET driven high sensitivity speakers.
I’m not sure, but are you put off by people who extol the virtues of SET’s and horns or just commenting that many on this site seem to choose those for their systems, and if the latter, does that majority choice suggest such to be their best choice for natural sound?
 
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'Natural' and "Accurate' are exactly the same thing as I described earlier. Synonymous in every way. If its not accurate its not natural and if not natural certainly not accurate. What we cannot do is be truthful to the musical event. That is because whatever it was, the recording is all we have. But we can be truthful to that, so however the recording is, the reproduction will be as true to the recording as possible if its 'accurate' or 'natural'.

Put another way, you are hobbling yourself for no good reason if you see a distinction between these two terms.

BTW there are exactly zero designers of audio equipment that do not rely on measurements. They all use Voltmeters for example. I'm pretty sure all of them have an oscilloscope and a signal generator. The word 'measurements' has sadly become a word that inspires a knee-jerk reaction. No doubt a lot of this has to do with so-called 'objectivists' that discount the subjective experience and think nothing is real if its only anecdote. That's exactly the same kind of mistake the subjectivist camp makes when it discounts measurements. The truth lies somewhere between as Daniel von Recklinghausen stated!!

Put another way its possible to use engineering to design equipment that obeys the rules of human hearing just as its possible to design equipment that gets you good numbers on a spec sheet. That is what Vladimir was up to. Its also possible to design equipment that gets you good specs on paper and also obey human hearing rules. Its that last bit that a lot of people don't seem to understand. When it has good specs and also obeys human hearing rules then it will be both accurate and natural.

Like ones that actually can play the sound pressures of a real orchestra without sounding loud


This is because the rules of human hearing are universal across the entire population of the planet. What we do with those rules is another matter; there's no accounting for taste.

Then something is dreadfully wrong with it and it can't play rock very well either (or he's not figured out that there's really big differences in recording quality from label to label and just has bad classical recordings...). Electronics don't have taste and no designer has ever figured out how to make any kind of electronics (including loudspeakers) favor a certain musical genre. The idea that a speaker like the JBL L100 is good for rock is 100% myth. They play classical just as well (or badly, depending on your perspective). Because musicians all share the same rules of human hearing like the rest of us, they tend to spread the musical message over the same band of frequencies in exactly the same way whether death metal or classical.

BTW you can record an electric guitar in a way that sounds natural and accurate or you can record it so it doesn't. The natural sound of it in a recording will sound like the musician is playing the electric guitar in front of you. As a hint, the way to do this is to not place the mic directly in front of the guitar cabinet's driver but instead get back about as far as you might if you were actually there listening to him play. And for heaven's sake use a decent microphone?? You aren't going to get it right with a Shure SM57. Neumanns work very well for this purpose! There's no need for cheap mics in a recording studio unless you're looking to create an effect.
A tone generator can emit a perfect G, most accurately. Whereas a grand piano can strike a G chord and although the multiple harmonics associated with that piano chord strike make it anything but accurate, it is however natural.
 
I’m not sure, but are you put off by people who extol the virtues of SET’s and horns or just commenting that many on this site seem to choose those for their systems, and if the latter, does that majority choice suggest such to be their best choice for natural sound?
I'm not at all put off by those choices. I enjoy reading about those systems, I am often impressed by them. I appreciate the diversity of systems discussed in this forum.

I just had a knee-jerk reaction to the idea that you cannot evaluate a system as sounding "natural" unless you own season tickets to your local symphonic orchestra (to paraphrase things, and slightly exaggerate them...).
 
A tone generator can emit a perfect G, most accurately. Whereas a grand piano can strike a G chord and although the multiple harmonics associated with that piano chord strike make it anything but accurate, it is however natural.
?? What is your point?? Neither are heard in a stereo. For that you need a recording. As soon as there's a recording accurate and natural are the same thing.
 
I’m not sure, but are you put off by people who extol the virtues of SET’s and horns or just commenting that many on this site seem to choose those for their systems, and if the latter, does that majority choice suggest such to be their best choice for natural sound?

Which "majority"? I don't see one on WBF. I also don't see a SET in my future. I have listened to about 7 SETs now in home settings and like most of them, but hear no reason to switch (this would also require horn speakers, which I don't see in my future either). And yes, I use acoustic non-amplified live music as a reference.
 
I also don't see a SET in my future.
I don’t see one in yours either, nor analog, but that is more to do with attitude
 
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I don’t see one in yours either, nor analog, but that is more to do with attitude

Yeah, I'm deaf, I know.

Let's talk when you have a system of your own.

KABAS!
 
I’m not sure, but are you put off by people who extol the virtues of SET’s and horns
occasionally......
or just commenting that many on this site seem to choose those for their systems, and if the latter, does that majority choice suggest such to be their best choice for natural sound?
i think the only part that stands out about the horn/SET crowd is their dogmatic veracity and need to push it, compared to other live and let live camps. it's not numerical, just involved activity pushing it. and no worries......if it makes them happy then get right to it. others think there is more than one way to go to get where you are going....even natural sound.

it does make for more forum energy and stuff to talk about.

someday it might be me with SET's and horns....why not? i'm not anti.
 
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i think the only part that stands out about the horn/SET crowd is their dogmatic veracity and need to push it, compared to other live and let live camps. it's not numerical, just involved activity pushing it. and no worries......if it makes them happy then get right to it. others think there is more than one way to go to get where you are going....even natural sound.

Indeed, the whole attitude is off-putting.
 
Indeed, the whole attitude is off-putting.
they are not so bad. i like them much better than the objectivist/ASR crowd, at least we have listening respect in common. and SET/Horn lovers come in all shapes, sizes, and fang length. so there is variety. :rolleyes:
 

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