Need An Amplifier That Can Make Any Speaker It's Bitch?

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Andre Marc said:
There is nothing to learn from somebody who has never seen, heard, or touched the product. Fyi, the heatsinks are actually COOL to the touch after being on a week straight...and after several hours of use. Very presumptuous post here by phantom armchair engineers.
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Yes there is something to be learned by looking at the inside of a product.

We learned much about Steve Jobs with his fascination/dedication to the layout inside of his computers in an artistic manner. Some likened him and his employees to artists.

In your signature I see the affiliation with Tonepub, the fruit does not fall far from the tree.

There is a long Internet history of his posting style getting him kicked out of audio forums, I see you are determined to follow suit. I wish you the best of luck in that endeavor.

And I don't recall arirm commenting on the sound of the equipment, only a remote safety concern regarding lightening strikes, an audiophile's worst nightmare.

We all have something we fear, only a fool disregards hazards which can kill him or his equipment, in my humble opinion.
 
DaveyF said:
Which is saying something. Unlike a few of the 'usual' suspects who are trying to convince some of us that their $50K entry level products are the way for the a'phile world to go forward!
I have to say that some of the more recent audio 'jewelry' ( really,is there any other way to put it??) is far too concerned with- as David stated above...the industrial design and not enough of the sound quality and 'perceived' value.
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I know for a fact that some of the most coveted products out there allocate as much as 40% of the BOM to the casework. Take that for what it is worth.

BTW, a local audiophile here, has two Redgum amps he has been running for ten years with ZERO issues. SO much for overheating, terribly designed products.
 
kach22i said:
Yes there is something to be learned by looking at the inside of a product.

We learned much about Steve Jobs with his fascination/dedication to the layout inside of his computers in an artistic manner. Some likened him and his employees to artists.

In your signature I see the affiliation with Tonepub, the fruit does not fall far from the tree.

There is a long Internet history of his posting style getting him kicked out of audio forums, I see you are determined to follow suit. I wish you the best of luck in that endeavor.

And I don't recall arirm commenting on the sound of the equipment, only a remote safety concern regarding lightening strikes, an audiophiles worst nightmare.

We all have something we fear, only a fool disregards hazards which can kill him or his equipment, in my humble opinion.
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Is this post a joke? Lightning strikes?

Yes, you hit the nail RIGHT ON THE HEAD...

"... I don't recall amir commenting on the sound of the equipment.."

And he NEVER will.
 
Andre Marc said:
Is this post a joke? Lightning strikes?

Yes, you hit the nail RIGHT ON THE HEAD...

"... I don't recall amir commenting on the sound of the equipment.."

And he NEVER will.
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I didn't claim fear was rational, it is however an important aspect of human existence.

Now putting a heatsink on the bottom with the fins unable to take advantage of convection, that's irrational.

However, I defend the irrational as a form of personal expression and Industrial Design, God forbid everything looks the same.

Example: My summer car has the engine in the rear (some find that odd), and uses an inefficient medium of cooling (air), but I love my little Porsche just the same.

I think you are out of line Andre.

I'm not going to hold that against this design, nor the manufacture.

Rotel a few years ago put decorative heatsinks of some of their amps, I don't think the sound of the equipment suffered any for it. More power to them.

I suspect this heatsink could be 1/4 the size if placed on one of it's sides/faces and engineers like that sort of efficiency (could be talking about any topic, hovercraft fans....etc.).

The designer in me, the artist says bravo, put it at the bottom and get dual function out of it in a mass/spike sort of way.

I want to think there is an advantage to adding the mass down low, and possibly dispersing chassis vibration into the air, but that's just my imagination taking up the slack for a lack of designer intent being expressed in any of the links and in any of our forum posts.

If we could stop all of the name calling and really look at the design, then maybe we could find merit to this design together.

Ian Robinson's thoughts on the heatsink placement would be welcomed by me, if anyone sees this information please post it and provide a link to it's source.

EDIT:
I have no idea if heatsinks are any good at disbursing mico chassis vibrations into the air, for all I know it might make things worse. Worth looking into?
 
kach22i said:
I didn't claim fear was rational, it is however an important aspect of human existence.

Now putting a heatsink on the bottom with the fins unable to take advantage of convection, that's irrational.

However, I defend the irrational as a form of personal expression and Industrial Design, God forbid everything looks the same.

Example: My summer car has the engine in the rear (some find that odd), and uses an inefficient medium of cooling (air), but I love my little Porsche just the same.

I think you are out of line Andre.

I'm not going to hold that against this design, nor the manufacture.

Rotel a few years ago put decorative heatsinks of some of their amps, I don't think the sound of the equipment suffered any for it. More power to them.

I suspect this heatsink could be 1/4 the size if place on one of it's sides/faces and engineers like that sort of efficiency (could be talking about any topic, hovercraft fans....etc.).

The designer in me, the artist says bravo, put it at the bottom and get dual function out of it in a mass/spike sort of way.

I want to think there is an advantage to adding the mass down low, and possibly dispersing chassis vibration into the air, but that's just my imagination taking up the slack for a lack of designer intent being expressed in any of the links and in any of our forum posts.

If we could stop all of the name calling and really look at the design, then maybe we could find merit to this design together.

Ian Robinson's thoughts on the heatsink placement would be welcomed by me, if anyone sees this information please post it and provide a link to it's source.
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I appreciate the post. Thank you for the open mindedness. As you said, and as I noted, this is not a cookie cutter product. I also noted to others who made hysterical posts about heat dissipation, the amp is COOL as a Cucumber to the touch on all sides, top , and bottom. It is also DEAD silent, mechanically, and sonically.

I will gladly ask Ian about the heatsinks.
 
DaveyF said:
Here's a picture of my ss amp: View attachment 23439 Nothing but a heatsink:rolleyes:,

YET back at the factory due to over-heating!! Hmmm.:mad:
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Rowland use (or used) VERY complicated temperature control systems for their amplifiers. As I recall, the bias adjustment involves the use of 6 or 8 pots, each of which interacts with the others. There is a lot of heat sink and stabilisation takes a long time, thus making service a long and complicated affair. That said, I applaud their use of precision temperature sensors (and consequent accurate control over output device temperature).

Just to show that I am a fair and fearless commentator, the Rowlands I've worked on have WAY too much wiring (more than 600mm and up to a Metre for some devices!) between the main filter caps and each output device. This extra inductance will impact negatively on sound quality and, had Rowland chosen a different mechanical layout, they could have made the amp sound considerably better.
 
Andre Marc said:
I appreciate the post. Thank you for the open mindedness. As you said, and as I noted, this is not a cookie cutter product. I also noted to others who made hysterical posts about heat dissipation, the amp is COOL as a Cucumber to the touch on all sides, top , and bottom. It is also DEAD silent, mechanically, and sonically.

I will gladly ask Ian about the heatsinks.
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Operate the amp with the standard IHF pre-conditioning and let us know.
 
Tech Guy said:
Rowland use (or used) VERY complicated temperature control systems for their amplifiers. As I recall, the bias adjustment involves the use of 6 or 8 pots, each of which interacts with the others. There is a lot of heat sink and stabilisation takes a long time, thus making service a long and complicated affair. That said, I applaud their use of precision temperature sensors (and consequent accurate control over output device temperature).

Just to show that I am a fair and fearless commentator, the Rowlands I've worked on have WAY too much wiring (more than 600mm and up to a Metre for some devices!) between the main filter caps and each output device. This extra inductance will impact negatively on sound quality and, had Rowland chosen a different mechanical layout, they could have made the amp sound considerably better.
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Ok, that's interesting. I was under the impression that the last time I opened up my amp ( a model 8), the connection between the caps and the output devices was via a solid copper buss. Perhaps I am mistaken, it has been a while since I did this???
 
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DaveyF said:
Which is saying something. Unlike a few of the 'usual' suspects who are trying to convince some of us that their $50K entry level products are the way for the a'phile world to go forward!
I have to say that some of the more recent audio 'jewelry' ( really,is there any other way to put it??) is far too concerned with- as David stated above...the industrial design and not enough of the sound quality and 'perceived' value.[/QUOTE]

That... The bain of the hobby
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Rowen Absolute1 monoblocs are capable for unleashing 3.5K wpc into 0.5ohms. 6moons covered the in Zurich audio show 2009 or 2010.

http://rowen.ch/en/data/rowen_one.php


http://www.6moons.com/industryfeatures/zurich09/6.html
Swiss company Rowen was complete news to me. Their Absolute ONE mono amplifier is a fully symmetrical affair with two power transformers and no global feedback which offers 240 watts into 8? and a shocking 3500 watts into 0.5? to clearly be no bridged design and unconditionally stable into Scintilla territory. In stereo trim, power scales to 65/1000wpc.

also:

http://www.6moons.com/industryfeatures/suisse2010/2.html
I'd seen Swiss electronics/speaker firm Rowen last year but never understood just why I'd never come across them anywhere prior to moving to Switzerland. They only sell in this country. That also explains their pricing which for apparent build quality and features seems very reasonable given that nothing is outsourced. "Our customers are essentially our dealers so we've eliminated one layer of middlemen" explained the owner's son and vice director Pascal Aebischer. They also run import firm Dynavox to bring into Switzerland and Germany NAD, PSB, Myryad and Dali. "If we did export with Rowen, we'd have to raise our domestic prices to match. This we did not want so we only sell domestically."

While this admittedly does leave out the majority of our international readers, how about a dual-mono amplifier which delivers 65 watts into 8 ohms and one kilowatt into 0.5 ohms; can be bridged to 240 which into half an ohm then nets 3.500 watts; and sells for CHF 6.490? Now add that it is fully balanced, avoids all feedback and offers a negative output impedance to eliminate cable interactions. Say hello to the Absolute One at lower left.

rowen1.jpg
 
Blizzard said:
Here's of a real modern amp that will make any speaker it's bitch. Unless distortion, coloration, large form factor and compromised reliability is your goal, look no further.

http://www.belcantodesign.com/eOne/products/amplifiers/ref600m-amplifier/
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In that link I notice the funny feet. Waffled wavy, not the typical single point spikes.

Here is another view (the 500 not the 600) similar.

http://www.positive-feedback.com/Issue50/bel_canto500.htm
bel_ca3.jpg

I see a slight similarity to the amp in question, a long stretch of one, but I see it.

Single point and single frequency/node contact feet are a thing of the past?
 
Andre Marc said:
I do like Bel Canto stuff a lot. From all perspectives..industrial design, sonics, and build.
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This amp is in another league from any other Bel Canto amp besides the black. It uses the Hypex NC500 amp modules and they are game changing disruptive technology for the price.
 
From the horses mouth, an email from Ian Robinson, touching on the amplifier design:

"The questioning as to why not have the fins on the sides or the back:

Agreed, fins dissipate heat most efficiently when they are vertically orientated. But when you factor in the sheer size (as in surface area) of this heat sink, it then doesn't need such a lot of air flow to keep it cool. And the openness of the "sine" curve allows a generous clearance for air to convect through and up from the heat sink. In fact, with one of those "through" directions always being forward, this creates a real positive for dissipation when units are positioned in cabinets.

So, as the flat "back"/top surface of the heat sink then becomes the base of the amplifier, even driving low impedance loads long and hard means the metal never gets warmer than blood temperature. This is the case because the area of the heat sink is "overkill" to the nth degree, the amp doesn't raise a sweat with the more difficult loads. This was the only technical test it needed to deliver on, so we knew after long, hard sessions it had passed with flying colours! Along with being rock solid as a heat sink!

As implied, the initial impetus for this design was to meet the changing market urging the use of drivers with ever lower impedances. So that there was plenty of heat sinking to "future proof your system", it seemed only logical to re-design our bigger ENR versions (prior to the Black Series) to use a heat sink as the whole base plate of the amplifier.

REDGUMs are designed so that all circuits are efficient and that must include heat issues!! In fact, the very first REDGUM design had all MOSFETs mounted directly onto a thick metal plate bolted to the internal heat sink. (Within a few years, all MOSFETs were mounted directly onto that internal heat sink.) Then with the advent of the SignWave heat sink, an even more effective connection could be made as the MOSFETs of all Signature Series models were close coupled to the top/"back" of this immense surface. Also for the first time (in the industry?) we could use this heat sink to cool the mains transformer. And as to the rigid mounting of the transformer, it, too, is bolted directly to the casting.

Unsurprisingly, the heat dissipation is very effective on this "BBQ grill" (as it has been called!). As you would be only too aware, some Audio brands have heat sinks visually well placed, but actually with no heat-generating components mounted onto them directly!!!!!! I find that technically weird as naturally it is most ineffective. : (

Indeed, we have tried placing heat sinks where they are "meant to be"! Prior to this, we had interim models using heat sinks at the rear, or completely forming the sides of the amplifier (e.g. earlier models of our 6 channel Home Theatre power amp), but in comparison, that side coverage was only about two-thirds of the surface area the Sign Wave heat sink offers as a base.

I am sure the thought has crossed your mind that for the power of this "baby" Black Series amp you are testing, the amount of heat sinking is excessive. ; ) Indeed, yes, but, on the other hand, it really does come in handy for the rest of the Black Series ramping up to 244W/ch and 500W/ch into 2?. So it was decided when presenting a new series it made more sense to have one physical style.

For the last 10 years, the SignWave heat sink has been the visual hallmark of our larger ENR models in what is now called the Amplifolia range. As the Black Signature Series are clones of the Amplifolia designs, then having the same heat sink seemed to fit the visual logic. As the Black Series were focussing on providing the grunt for those more difficult loads, it made even more sense for the technical logic. "
 
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