Network Acoustics - Tempus network switch

[PYP]

But how much improvement can other aspects such as separation from traffic on the non-audio networks, minimised use of wifi and universal SFP cages make?

The separation from non-audio traffic is the area of improvement that I'm watching. After I got the Grimm MU1 server/streamer/upsampler, the etherREGEN no longer mattered (to me; some folks with the MU1 have kept the eR. I actually used two eRs in series, both with LPS. One eR also had a very good external clock attached, with its own LPS). The MU1 made me more sensitive to the additive qualities -- that is, an LPS or switch add to the sound just as they subtract noise. The user may or may not want those additions.

Therefore, I'm holding off on a switch while this area develops further (the current state seems similar to where where streamers were in their development a few years ago). The Muon Pro serves the setup well for now. The SwitchX seems like it is going in the right direction, although all the additional boxes do not fit my preference for simplicity and custom-designed hardware vs. a mod.

Since the SFP cages are a future use for the Tempus, that might change my mind depending upon how they develop that function (I prefer to do one demo once the technology is settled). I've also had an optical converter with LPS. These also add their own sound. Some folks suggest the connecting cables have an affect on the sound too. Optical cables! If true, any conversion must add some kind of noise while it subtracts other kinds. At least that is my working hypothesis. But, I am not an audio designer nor have I played one on TV.

From what I understand, the iPad/music controller client connected to the 'clean' side of SwitchX can still have access to the internet. So while inconvenient, it's not like the 'iPad' cannot be used for typical internet functions.

That is a question that I have. If you access the internet, are you really completely isolating the "clean" side. The designer suggests not doing that, I believe. In my own setup, only the hifi is fed with a wired copper connection. Everything else is wifi. Does that make any difference? I don't know. Folks have told me it doesn't because it is all one network. All I know is that the Grimm MU1 + NA Muon Pro sounds pretty darn good. And the best I've heard at home.

 

[treitz3]

I've also had an optical converter with LPS. These also add their own sound. Some folks suggest the connecting cables have an affect on the sound too. Optical cables! If true, any conversion must add some kind of noise while it subtracts other kinds. At least that is my working hypothesis. But, I am not an audio designer nor have I played one on TV.

Hello sir and good morning to you. In a recent discussion with Alex (@Superdad) and John Swenson elsewhere, it appears as if the optical can impart a certain sound signature. Here is a snippet that may confirm in a technical manner what you are actually hearing....

There are some big misconceptions about optical network connections. The optical connections do NOT make the timing perfect. They do NOT "reclock" the data. Whatever jitter that is on the input is still there on the output, in fact the electrical to optical and back to electrical ADDS jitter to the signal. All higher quality optical equipment can do is add less jitter to what is already there, it CANNOT reduce it. What is beneficial is that it completely blocks the common mode noise including leakage currents from power supplies. It blocks one of the issues but makes the other slightly worse. All higher quality optical equipment can do is make that "slightly less" even less, but it is still there.

Tom

 

[audiobomber]

Hello sir and good morning to you. In a recent discussion with Alex (@Superdad) and John Swenson elsewhere, it appears as if the optical can impart a certain sound signature. Here is a snippet that may confirm in a technical manner what you are actually hearing....



Tom

John's explanation ignores that the great majority of SFP ports are embedded in a switch, which reclocks and reduces noise. The opticalModule is a great FMC, but also a switch

 

[PYP]

Hello sir and good morning to you. In a recent discussion with Alex (@Superdad) and John Swenson elsewhere, it appears as if the optical can impart a certain sound signature. Here is a snippet that may confirm in a technical manner what you are actually hearing....



Tom

Thank you, Tom. I hadn't seen that, but always pay attention to anything that Mr. Swenson writes. He is one of the original minds in audio and obviously willing to tackle hard problems with ingenuity and perseverance (Alex posted about John wrestling with the programming needs of the eR design and the amount of work needed was very apparent). And they make a great team. Alex's customer service is the platinum standard, part of which relies upon his considerable technical knowledge.

From one perspective, one would think this shouldn't be so difficult. The reduction of common mode and differential mode noise = better sound. But in addition to any conversion process, I believe that any LPS also injects some noise back into the system. If true, then the noise issues is a nested one. I believe that is why John/Alex suggest putting the eR just before the DAC (but, of course, folks are probably powering the eR with an LPS rather than the included SMPS and that must also inject some noise. Although I assume that any quality LPS will be better than a wall-wart SMPS). The Tempus, PhoenixNET and d-1 use advanced LPS designs.

The placement seems to be one distinction among the switches -- the Tempus and SwitchX seem designed to be placed separately from the audio equipment, whereas the eR, PhoenixNET, d-1, are made to reside close to the audio equipment. There are always positives and negatives to any approach.

Overall, it is obvious that if one uses a network for audio purposes, some kind of common mode noise filter is needed. Whether active, passive or a combination is best probably depends upon the seemingly incalculable variables that networks present. That is why a demo is necessary and one cannot assume the outcome.

 

[PYP]

John's explanation ignores that the great majority of SFP ports are embedded in a switch, which reclocks and reduces noise. The opticalModule is a great FMC, but also a switch

I had used an oM to feed my two etherREGENS. Agree that it very good, although dependent upon the LPS that powers it. But, eventually I found that better sound was achieved without it. Needless to say, all systems are different as are our ears and preferences. Once I removed the oM, I then tested simpler and simpler configurations and found simpler sometimes is better (and more reliable). This variability is what makes this stuff fun and sometimes frustrating.

 

[audiobomber]

I had used an oM to feed my two etherREGENS. Agree that it very good, although dependent upon the LPS that powers it. But, eventually I found that better sound was achieved without it. Needless to say, all systems are different as are our ears and preferences. Once I removed the oM, I then tested simpler and simpler configurations and found simpler sometimes is better (and more reliable). This variability is what makes this stuff fun and sometimes frustrating.

Was that the original oMD? V-2 is supposedly a much improved version. I agree the power supply makes all the difference in the world. I use a Teddy Pardo MiniTeddy into an ER with Pardo 12/2 LPS, via single mode fiber. No doubt there are better, and the price delta between the Tempus and ER leaves a lot of room for a PSU upgrade and/or Muon Pro. The ER II is expected to be a significant improvement on the ER.

 

[PYP]

Was that the original oMD? V-2 is supposedly a much improved version. I agree the power supply makes all the difference in the world. I use a Teddy Pardo MiniTeddy into an ER with Pardo 12/2 LPS, via single mode fiber. No doubt there are better, and the price delta between the Tempus and ER leaves a lot of room for a PSU upgrade and/or Muon Pro. The ER II is expected to be a significant improvement on the ER.

yes, the original oM. Teddy Pardo makes very fine LPS units.

Looking forward to reading about the eR II. A lot of technology and innovative thinking in a small package. Competition is good for the marketplace.

 

[jasond]

I also used the ER with max upgraded Farad Super3 along with a Sonore Optical Module Deluxe V2 (also with max. upgraded Super3) - and all with Audioquest Monsoon power cord on a Audioquest Niagara 5000. Still was no comparison to the Tempus.
Also tried the Tempus via the SFP and the OM D V2 with Finnisar SFPs - but sounded better and more natural/analog without SFP.
So I would go with the recommendation in the Hifi-advice review. First go with a Muon Pro streaming system. And if you got the budget then a Tempus will be another improvement.

 

[Network Acoustics]

Thank you, Tom. I hadn't seen that, but always pay attention to anything that Mr. Swenson writes. He is one of the original minds in audio and obviously willing to tackle hard problems with ingenuity and perseverance (Alex posted about John wrestling with the programming needs of the eR design and the amount of work needed was very apparent). And they make a great team. Alex's customer service is the platinum standard, part of which relies upon his considerable technical knowledge.

From one perspective, one would think this shouldn't be so difficult. The reduction of common mode and differential mode noise = better sound. But in addition to any conversion process, I believe that any LPS also injects some noise back into the system. If true, then the noise issues is a nested one. I believe that is why John/Alex suggest putting the eR just before the DAC (but, of course, folks are probably powering the eR with an LPS rather than the included SMPS and that must also inject some noise. Although I assume that any quality LPS will be better than a wall-wart SMPS). The Tempus, PhoenixNET and d-1 use advanced LPS designs.

The placement seems to be one distinction among the switches -- the Tempus and SwitchX seem designed to be placed separately from the audio equipment, whereas the eR, PhoenixNET, d-1, are made to reside close to the audio equipment. There are always positives and negatives to any approach.

Overall, it is obvious that if one uses a network for audio purposes, some kind of common mode noise filter is needed. Whether active, passive or a combination is best probably depends upon the seemingly incalculable variables that networks present. That is why a demo is necessary and one cannot assume the outcome.

Sorry to but in on a really interesting conversation, but we thought it might be helpful for us to clarify a couple of things regarding tempus from tech perspective. First, Tempus is not sensitive to positioning, but we do generally recommend installing it as close as possible to your streaming end point and if you use one your server or NAS so to avoid long runs ehternet cabling between the switch and these devices. Second the tempus psu is not a linear supply. We spent many months of R&D time testing the 'best' available battery, linear and switched-mode power supplies, but concluded that the only way to realise the performance we wanted for tempus was to make something new, a power supply designed specifically for a network switch.

The tempus PSU is Hybrid design featuring multi-stage noise filtering, a unique output stage design combined with switched-mode technology. This hybrid design delivers ultra clean power combined with the speed and dynamics that only a switched-mode supply can provide. NA

 

[luca.pelliccioli]

Sorry to but in on a really interesting conversation, but we thought it might be helpful for us to clarify a couple of things regarding tempus from tech perspective. First, Tempus is not sensitive to positioning, but we do generally recommend installing it as close as possible to your streaming end point and if you use one your server or NAS so to avoid long runs ehternet cabling between the switch and these devices. Second the tempus psu is not a linear supply. We spent many months of R&D time testing the 'best' available battery, linear and switched-mode power supplies, but concluded that the only way to realise the performance we wanted for tempus was to make something new, a power supply designed specifically for a network switch.

The tempus PSU is Hybrid design featuring multi-stage noise filtering, a unique output stage design combined with switched-mode technology. This hybrid design delivers ultra clean power combined with the speed and dynamics that only a switched-mode supply can provide. NA

Thanks for the clarification. Have you considered to offer (on request) the new Hybrid PSU to customers in a specific Voltage? Able to match other devices. For instance I’d be very interested in it to feed my actual (non audiophile) router, due to its unique design.

 

[PYP]

Sorry to but in on a really interesting conversation, but we thought it might be helpful for us to clarify a couple of things regarding tempus from tech perspective. First, Tempus is not sensitive to positioning, but we do generally recommend installing it as close as possible to your streaming end point and if you use one your server or NAS so to avoid long runs ehternet cabling between the switch and these devices. Second the tempus psu is not a linear supply. We spent many months of R&D time testing the 'best' available battery, linear and switched-mode power supplies, but concluded that the only way to realise the performance we wanted for tempus was to make something new, a power supply designed specifically for a network switch.

The tempus PSU is Hybrid design featuring multi-stage noise filtering, a unique output stage design combined with switched-mode technology. This hybrid design delivers ultra clean power combined with the speed and dynamics that only a switched-mode supply can provide. NA

@Network Acoustics That is an interesting distinction. Is such a design more immune to noise carried on the electrical line as well as less likely to put noise back onto the electrical line?

From a selfish point of view, having severe space constraints and a need for only one RJ45 input (from router) and one output (server/streamer), it would be great to have a mini-Tempus in a half-size chassis with half as many outputs...

When using the Tempus with a Muon Pro, do you recommend MP > Tempus > streamer or Tempus > MP > streamer? Thanks.

 

[F208Frank]

All I got to say is that I love my Muon Pro and Tempus!

+1 for the digital team!

 

[keithc]

All I got to say is that I love my Muon Pro and Tempus!

+1 for the digital team!

Frank can you indulge in some photos of your network setup?
Congrats on a great NA pairing!

 

[Network Acoustics]

Thanks for the clarification. Have you considered to offer (on request) the new Hybrid PSU to customers in a specific Voltage? Able to match other devices. For instance I’d be very interested in it to feed my actual (non audiophile) router, due to its unique design.

We are working on a power supply which is specifically designed for use with Routers which we hope to launch later this year. We're very excited about this product and we will share more information as soon as possible NA

 

[Network Acoustics]

@Network Acoustics That is an interesting distinction. Is such a design more immune to noise carried on the electrical line as well as less likely to put noise back onto the electrical line?

From a selfish point of view, having severe space constraints and a need for only one RJ45 input (from router) and one output (server/streamer), it would be great to have a mini-Tempus in a half-size chassis with half as many outputs...

When using the Tempus with a Muon Pro, do you recommend MP > Tempus > streamer or Tempus > MP > streamer? Thanks.

Thank you for your questions. First, yes this design is more immune to noise carried in on the electrical line and second we have mains filter which minimises any noise going back on to the electrical line. We are currently working a range of new products and we have no immediate plans to launch another switch, but this not to say never and might look at this in future. Finally to answer your question about configuration. We recommend Tempus > MUON Pro > Streamer. If you're running separate a streamer, server and or NAS, then there are worthwhile gains to be had by connecting secondary Filters between these devices and Tempus. The caveats to this would be that network set ups can vary significantly as can environmental factors, not to mention listener preferences, so our advice is always based on a majority use case. Some users might prefer different configurations, so we whole heartedly endorse experimentation and going with what sounds best to you.

thank you again and we hope this answers your questions. NA

 

[treitz3]

We are working on a power supply which is specifically designed for use with Routers which we hope to launch later this year. We're very excited about this product and we will share more information as soon as possible NA

Will this also be as beneficial to a satellite unit on a mesh network or just for the router itself? (obviously, I have a mesh network)

Tom

 

[luca.pelliccioli]

We are working on a power supply which is specifically designed for use with Routers which we hope to launch later this year. We're very excited about this product and we will share more information as soon as possible NA

Thanks, it sounds great! Count me in, very interested (I’m currently using a PSU from Sean Jacobs). Assuming the router specs are 12V 1.5A is the actual Tempus PSU compatible?
A single NA PSU able to feed both the Tempus and the router would be very useful (less space on the rack, less fancy power cords, maybe better grounding). If this solution might preserve from pollution, of course.

 

[Network Acoustics]

Thanks, it sounds great! Count me in, very interested (I’m currently using a PSU from Sean Jacobs). Assuming the router specs are 12V 1.5A is the actual Tempus PSU compatible?
A single NA PSU able to feed both the Tempus and the router would be very useful (less space on the rack, less fancy power cords, maybe better grounding). If this solution might preserve from pollution, of course.

Hi Luca, The tempus PSU is not compatible with most Routers. This will be a Router specific power supply based around the same technology we developed for the tempus PSU, but tailored to the specific needs of a Router. It will be rated 12v/3a. We will share more information very soon. NA

 

[jasond]

That is exciting news @Network Acoustics !! I am also highly interested as I know what major improvements the Muon Pro streaming system and Tempus brought to my system. Currently using a FritzBox router with an iFi iPower Elite but I know this segment in the network environment is essential as it's the "entry point of the ISP" so any further improvements are highly appreciated.

 

[luca.pelliccioli]

Hi Luca, The tempus PSU is not compatible with most Routers. This will be a Router specific power supply based around the same technology we developed for the tempus PSU, but tailored to the specific needs of a Router. It will be rated 12v/3a. We will share more information very soon. NA

Thanks, very excited about your new PSU. As usual, you have my attention!