New forum created for subjectivist members

[Phelonious Ponk]

Fifty years ago subjective /objective debate simply did not exist , reviews consisted of measurements, specifications, and facilities if there was a 'subjective' component it was no more than a comparison to a known standard, ie comparing midrange of the speaker under review to a Quad .
The magazines , retailers and some manufacturers have in my opinion a great to answer for.
Keith.

Maybe they have some history to answer for, Keith. At this point, they're serving the market. It would appear that, these days, for every audiophile who believes in the science of audio, there are a few dozen who have little interest in it, and would much rather read subjective reviews.

Tim

 

[jadis]

I am missing a great deal here because music is subjective by its very nature. Any reproduction of it is an intrepretation at best. How you paint the painting cannot by its very design be purely objective.

Summary: The entire subjective/objective discussion is bullshit.

+1

 

[Purite Audio]

Tim yes ,if you talk to any magazine editor they will tell you that measurements do not sell magazines, the fewer the better!
What would be ideal would be a 'Which ' type magazine sponsored by an audiophile philanthropist , products purchased outright , full suite of measurements , unsighted comparisons , no advertising pressure, just imagine.....
Of course we dill have to imagine it as it will never happen .
Keith.

 

[Gregadd]

Yes, and the other side of that extreme, self-aggrandizing POV is "somebody has to rebut all that audiophool voodoo." When you find the tweaks and cables and turntables and brands, and the new "what we hear" forums filled with objectivists coming in to disrupt threads there, the objectivists will be behaving as badly as you do. Until then, it won't be hard to figure out where the problem is.

Tim

I am sure we hold an equally negative opinion of one another. I think it is a good idea for you to ignore my posts as I do yours.

 

[Gregadd]

It is clear the mods are are not going to defend me against name calling and such. No problem from here on in I'll do it myself. I hope I don't get sanctioned for it.

 

[Phelonious Ponk]

I am sure we hold an equally negative opinion of one another. I think it is a good idea for you to ignore my posts as I do yours.

Yeah. Good work on that one.

Tim

 

[Phelonious Ponk]

It is clear the mods are are not going to defend me against name calling and such. No problem from here on in I'll do it myself. I hope I don't get sanctioned for it.

Did someone call you a bad name, Greg?

Tim

 

[Jinjuku]

You don't get the right to say one thing privately, then another thing publicly, and then go onto contradict yourself and get to hide behind the shield of PM's staying PM's.

Don't send anything to me privately that can be used against you later when you contradict yourself in the context of calling someone else a liar or put words in their mouth.

Again I don't use PM much because what I have to say I'll say in thread. I'll find a way to say it within the TOS.

Twice now members here have posted that I said something that I never said, intimated, hinted at etc. When you cross that line you really shouldn't have any expectation to privacy if that's the only avenue affordable to me.

Only here do I get to point out that I didn't say something, The person that lied come back and say "Ok you didn't say those words but your still an *******". Amazing.

 

[Jinjuku]

Did someone call you a bad name, Greg?

Tim

I did say I something about him being an unhappy person (that not even a subjectivist only thread where objective posts would be tossed and objectivist banned if they kept it up). Some people you can't please.

I certainly didn't call him any names.

 

[Gregadd]

So ,you can see why no one is going to use this forum.
A member just posted this.
"...Wait,is this the new forum where ypu cans ay whatever no matter how foolish without challenge."

jeromelang post 14
http://www.whatsbestforum.com/showthread.php?20113-Tweaking-spend&p=382694#post382694

 

[Jinjuku]

So ,you can see why no one is going to use this forum.
A member just posted this.
"...Wait,is this the new forum where ypu cans ay whatever no matter how foolish without challenge."

jeromelang post 14
http://www.whatsbestforum.com/showthread.php?20113-Tweaking-spend&p=382694#post382694

He's allowed his perception. Just like your perception with the unknown names you've been called.

 

[Gregadd]

He's allowed his perception. Just like your perception with the unknown names you've been called.

let me explain something to you. I am not in the habit of publicizing negative comments about myself. They are there for anyone who cares to see.

There is a fundamental difference between censorship and criticism.

 

[Jinjuku]

let me explain something to you. Iam not in the habit of publicizing negative comeents about myself. They are there for anyone whoc ares to see.

There is a fundamental difference between censorship and criticism.

You may certainly have some negative comments as it pertains to you. I still don't see any name calling. It's frustrating to have dialog with someone that recalls non-existent posts.

 

[Phelonious Ponk]

So ,you can see why no one is going to use this forum.
A member just posted this.
"...Wait,is this the new forum where ypu cans ay whatever no matter how foolish without challenge."

jeromelang post 14
http://www.whatsbestforum.com/showthread.php?20113-Tweaking-spend&p=382694#post382694

Someone posted this in the subjectivists' forum? Have you reported it?

Tim

 

[Johnny Vinyl]

Okay. Someone smack me upside the head. What thread am I in? Looks similar to that TOS bitchfest I saw.

 

[nc42acc]

 

[Steve Williams]

Someone posted this in the subjectivists' forum? Have you reported it?

Tim

I'm going to step in here and call a time out. Art and Science are the DNA of Hi End Audio and its related industries. A constructive and comprehensive discussion should allow for both. This aggressive behavior of Amir and certain members with all of this irrelevance is IMHO "the issue", not Science or Art. This group of individuals IMO has become the force which has divided this membership with meaningless "subjectivist/objectivist"labels. IMHO Amir has failed desperately in upholding WBF's ideals. I have moved Amir's new Subjective Forum because its mandate is moving us even further away from those ideals and it has nothing to do with high end audio. Thank you all for your input on the color of the forum. That was a wonderful discussion that amounted to absolute nothing with all contributions I might add by Amir and other objectivists

Here is the new location of this forum should anyone ever contemplate posting a thread there


http://www.whatsbestforum.com/forumdisplay.php?366-What-We-Hear

 

[amirm]

My understanding is that WBF was a substantially subjectivist forum at its origin. It was senior, experienced, highly-respected subjectivist members who became disillusioned last year with the direction of, and bickering on, WBF and who left WBF, I believe, to the detriment of WBF.

Ron, the disenchantment as I have repeatedly mentioned happened in 2014. That was due to in-fighting between subjectivists leading to departure of Myles, Mep, and others. Yes those two come back for a brief period last summer but the damage to their loyalty (in both directions) was done then with no involvement from me. That is when we lost most of our subjectivists if you want to call it that.

At our inception, this was a very balanced forum as it should have been given who I am and who Steve is. We had Ron Party and Tim as super moderators and we hosted a number of industry luminaries on the science and objectivity side such as Dr. Sean Olive of Harman (outgoing president of Audio Engineering Society). http://www.whatsbestforum.com/forumdisplay.php?233-Science-In-The-Service-Of-Art-Dr-Sean-Olive. Likewise Ethan Winer was invited to have his own forum here just like Dr. Olive. And Earl Geddes who uses a Pioneer AVR has his amplifier for its speakers. All of these with open arms, cooperation and acceptance of Steve.

Today we still have Frantz, myself, Ron, Tim, Tom, etc. who have been here for the duration. But have lost many objectivists including the above and witty members like Terryj.

What is different now is an atmosphere of intolerance has developed for anything to do with audio science and objective look at what we hear. This is new.

I think a "takeover" of WBF by objectivists should be repelled. I do not see why the subjectivists, very likely a majority of the members here, should be herded into a corral.

Ron, there is maybe 1% of the objectivists post today than what it was two years ago. We had the gods of objectivity here battling. We had my chief architect, JJ who doesn't get more of an objectivist and luminary banned by Steve/Tom. Almost everyone is gone.

What is going on now is the audio equiv. of ethnic cleansing. Folks now want to get rid of all objectivists including me. And over what? Some hobby? Do we not share the love of music? Do we not share the love of high fidelity execution? How can we want to be so unkind to our fellow hobbyist as to ask for their extinction in this forum? How do we live with ourselves after that?

Ron, you set the model and example for how subjectivists should act. You are professional, kind hearted and informative. Please don't join the ill-intentioned crew based on faulty information given to you. I would not take any action that I have taken without the truth on my side.

There has been no influx of objectivists here. One look at this forum and you see a sea of subjectivists. And no open invitation to come and fight. And someone like me to keep them in check. So the usual crowd that comes for a fist fight is not here. You can't appreciate what a major accomplishment this is.

Now compare that to our subjectivists crew here which in open forum and closed repeatedly feels comfortable to throw rocks around. Ah the forum has been destroyed. Ah it is Amir's fault. Ah I don't want to see another graph. Ah I don't care what you have to say, you don't trust your ears. Ah, you are a joke. Ah, you don't have expensive enough system.

When do we step back and say how we want to come across as human beings first, and warring factions second? Is this how we conduct ourselves in public? We go to a party and demand that all democrats leave the room so that the republicans can have their food and drink when the two hosts are republican and democrats?

Please Ron, help me solve this problem. What you just said unintentionally will cause this friction to continue forever. I have created a forum just like you want the whole forum to be. It will exactly what you guys say the larger forum should be. Let's see you guys use it. That should be the end of it. Not aiming for the larger battle victory of throwing the few objectivist friends we have left overboard.

 

[amirm]

The road to hell is paved with good intentions.

Edit: Amir
I have known you as a member of this forium since its' inception. I don't pay attention to eveyrone who posts here. I always look fr your avatar. I assume you started WBF because you thought you had something to offer audiophiles. Yes that term is often maligned but that is what we are. And that audiophiles had something to offer you. I always thought you were a gentlemen whose oosition where well thought ut and researched . The fact that I did not always agree is another issue.I remember when I learned ou were banned.I thought how could that happen. I thought you to be the vooice of reason. I remember my first year olaw school professor said,It's easy for a judge to convince the winnere that he should have won.The mark of a good judge was to convince the loser that maybe he should have lost. To some degree you had that ability.

Thank you Greg for the kind words. It is hugely appreciated.

Your current behavior is a serious aberration from the Amir I used to know. Trust me(not my ears)your current behavior is a serious blemish on your reputation. Each time you post it is clear you sink further and further into the mire. Every time you reveal a private message or somtething that iwas told to you in the moderator/administrative deliberation process you tarnish your reputation. With each post and act you appear more biased and agenda driven.

I hear you Greg. I would not in a million years think this is the right thing to do to resolve conflicts. I know the cost of doing what I am doing now. As with all difficult decisions in life, you balance one cost against another. Right now, right here, this had to be done. Otherwise, surgery was going to be done to the forum without my buy-in with the threat of, "go ahead and sue me if you like it." Is that the advice you would have give me? Let the irreversible change happen and I go and sue Steve?

I am a man of principles Greg. I will go to grave on that. There is no cost too high to live up to what you fundamentally believe in. People go on hunger strike, go to jail for long time, etc. to not compromise them. Same is here with me. I cannot allow a number of bullies with the worst intentions, with total disregard for the truth, fairness and wisdom, "win." And win at the expense of good number of our membership. If my actions makes me look less in people's eyes, then fine. I will take that damage so that I don't have to compromises the honorable things I live by. That partnership comes first before what goes on in some hobby forum. That your friend of five years cannot and must not be thrown under the bus because some virtual friend you have online says he will quit if I don't stop talking about audio science. That you must at all times be truthful. You cannot underestimate my resolve in this manner.

I wonder if you have a confidant with which you can consult. Somebody who caan take a look at this situation and give you an honest opinion. Maybe your wife.

This is what Steve, Tom (and to some extent Lee) need. None of them have conflict resolution skills. Their only mode of operation is to get angry and shout profanities. Such skills were not required in their everyday jobs so they think throwing around outrage and insults and ganging up on the other guy is the solution. The most massive and critical improvement came just a few weeks ago when Steve consulted an attorney. All of a sudden he became nice, almost the image that people have of him. But it didn't last because he is driven by emotions and anger.

Me? I have had to learn these skills over 30+ years of managing people including handling PR, marketing, business development, etc. I know these things. It doesn't mean I am smarter than anybody else. It means I know what it means to be doing what I am doing.

If you don't turn things around you are going to precipitate the mass exodus of members.

Sorry no. What you see is what has been going on for the last 8 months. The only thing that is different is people having visibility into it. If the masses are here, it is for the good that they create for each other. If at any time you don't find what you need in any forum, and there is a better place, you should move. You should go where you will have most fun. We are either that place or we are not.

No way can you use this line with me to leverage what you want. Steve has tried this for 8 months to no avail. And importantly to no such outcome. As I said, the mass exodus was at the hand of Steve anyway. He single-handedly put AA forum on the map by donating them many of our subjectivists. Day after day and week after week Steve was depressed over all of that and was pleading with me for a solution. There was no blame put at my feet. Instead Steve realizing and agreeing with me that he was not conducting himself in proper manner.

You talk about ethics. Every email or complaint about anyone was forwarded to me by Steve without author's permission. These people had no idea that their confidence was being broken this way. This is why I have such an accurate picture of all the people behind the scenes contributing to this problem. Do you consider this proper and right?

There are not going to threaten you with leaving if you don't change. They are merely going to find soemthing else to do, or somewhere else to pursue thier hobby. Oh you care. Don't try to engange in anny sour grapes argument,
I am not saying Steve has engaged in exemplary behavior in this matter. Far from it. As the great Oprah said, is this the hill you want to die on?

I can't give better advice to anyone who is unhappy here: go find a place that makes you happier. Do not stay here and complain hoping that you can agitate the forum enough for it to change. You need to search for happiness. Engaging in the battle between Steve and I instead will only make your life here more miserable. Just ask Tom and Lee.

 

[amirm]

Here is the new location of this forum should anyone ever contemplate posting a thread there


http://www.whatsbestforum.com/forumdisplay.php?366-What-We-Hear

This forum needs to sit side by side by the Measurement forum in the top echelon of the forum so that people don't think we give priority to objectivists. I also want to see if people use it or not. This will give us data and costs nothing to try. If members don't have use for a space where they can share all their subjectivists views without interference, then we know that is not a problem to worry about.

I moved the forum back and I appreciate you letting this unfold for a bit.