New NHB 18NS

[dctom]

The Koda is difficult to audition in the UK, had to get the Ypsilons from Europe, high end gear is a bit thin on the ground here especially near me.

This is very helpful for me as both Dart and Ypsilon are on my short list as well. Your comments are similar to what Fremer wrote as well. May I ask if you have the silver versions of both or the standard version? Also, given the stepped volume control on the Ypsilon, do you find it a challenge to set the right level? Finally, do they both have similar soundstage perspective i.e. similar row seat in hall or does one present the front of the soundstage closer to listener? My guess would be that Ypsilon has a closer perspective. Any info you could provide would be greatly appreciated. Enjoy your Ypsilons...have heard so many good things about them and the Dart as well.

The Dart and Ypsilon have a similar sound stage the Dart is a bit more forward and brighter. The Ypsilon is more relaxed and has a deeper sound stage, seems to go back behind speakers more, gives better positional clues for performers and instruments. (Of course this refers to the original Dart the new one, no doubt, will be different).

The volume control is very easy to use and works well for me, no problem with levels.

I only have the standard versions not silver. The dealer has just got the silver pre in and said it is surprising how it improves on the standard one, unfortunately it is almost exactly twice the price!!

 

[ashandger]

The Koda is difficult to audition in the UK, had to get the Ypsilons from Europe, high end gear is a bit thin on the ground here especially near me.



The Dart and Ypsilon have a similar sound stage the Dart is a bit more forward and brighter. The Ypsilon is more relaxed and has a deeper sound stage, seems to go back behind speakers more, gives better positional clues for performers and instruments. (Of course this refers to the original Dart the new one, no doubt, will be different).

The volume control is very easy to use and works well for me, no problem with levels.

I only have the standard versions not silver. The dealer has just got the silver pre in and said it is surprising how it improves on the standard one, unfortunately it is almost exactly twice the price!!

Many thanks for the feedback. May I ask what power you are using? Have you ever had a chance to hear the Ypsilon SET 100 amp with your Dart pre or the Ypsilon pre?

 

[asiufy]

dctom,

Do you mind mentioning everything else you had in the system, including cables?
I've always been curious about Ypsilon gear. Unfortunately, every time I heard it was in less than ideal circunstances, with speakers that I know to be lousy... So not fair!

thanks

 

[dctom]

Many thanks for the feedback. May I ask what power you are using? Have you ever had a chance to hear the Ypsilon SET 100 amp with your Dart pre or the Ypsilon pre?

Hi

I use ATC 100 and subs. These are active speakers quite popular over here - probably not so common elsewhere. They are very accurate and detailed so anything untoward earlier in the sound chain becomes obvious, they need careful placement and I have a dedicated room with quite a lot of acoustic treatment, in this space they work incredibly well, great imaging, soundstage, tonality etc.
In hifi terms they are "reasonably" priced as one does not need to purchase expensive power amp(s). Means I have been able to invest in more the sources.
Re: the Ypsilon power amps, which I have not heard but have been told are superb, I saw this a while ago.....

http://www.theabsolutesound.com/articles/state-of-the-art-in-dc/

Dave

 

[spiritofmusic]

Guys, just to put my 2 cents (1.33 pence) in.
I've heard the Koda - the K10, not K15/K15EX, about 2 years ago
Also the Ypsilon pre (about 5 years ago)
The original Dart pre (about 3 years ago)
Currently own the Nat Utopia, soon to audition the batt psu Magnetostat.
All in different iterations of my system, all at different times, so please take w/a pinch of salt/YMMV etc.

All are FANTASTIC, but w/subtle yet significant differences (no audio gear says all things to all men, it seems).

The Ypsilon is truly an open window, transparency to die for, delicate, filigree, just casts a gentle light on the performers. Can rock out, no problem, but more on the spotlit beauty side of things. For me, maybe just a tad too self effacing. But don't confuse that for boring/uninvolving. No it's fully captivating, but I tended to coo at the music rather than have my pulse race.

The Dart I really liked too, but I found it a tad upfront, a little on the etched side, and bass not what I was expecting. Superb in lots of ways, but I couldn't get away from it's SS fingerprint, and having moved to a tube pre (Hovland HP200), this was not a path that enthused me.

The Koda is altogether more interested in tonal colour. Density up 2 or 3 notches, lots of fireworks, prob more engrossing than the Ypsilon, def more than the Dart. In my system, there was almost an overdose of technicolor. Now, this doesn't mean the sound was coloured, just that the presentation was full spectrum. It also did an amazing thing w/timing. It seemed to open up each moment in time so the notes became more significant. This felt initially like warm tubes slowing things, until I realised that music was unfolding at it's own pace. Spooky the only word. Esp since you would SWEAR it's a tube amp, but it's SS (Dart could never be confused for tubes).
For me, I had an issue w/volume, not enough stops. But I believe the K15 addresses this.

My Nat. Maybe the best amalgam of the Ypsilon and Koda. Not as instantly impressive as either, but somehow maybe the best all 'round performer of the three. With careful system changes, I'm approaching the tone density of the Koda, and approaching the transparency of the Ypsilon. Where the Nat wins out handily is it's uncanny ability to really lock down rhythmn, and be maybe the most full blooded and involving of the three. The Magnetostat promises (if the dealer is to be believed) a greater transparency and grain free presentation (batt psu) w/stronger tone and dynamics, meaning maybe it might match the Ypsilon and Koda, and pull ahead more on what it's better at.

So, in conclusion, the Dart firmly in fourth place. Interesting, excellent etc, but just not that extra 10% that makes it extra-special. The Ypsilon would be brilliant in a system where transparency is the critical factor, will have no peers. The Koda is truly a technicolour machine. My Nats maybe the best all 'rounders.
But if push came to shove, the Koda is the true star of this bunch, the K10 did things I've never heard before or since, and would be my desert island choice. It is TRULY stellar. I'm scared to even think what the K15/EX bring to the party.

 

[bonzo75]

The NAT entry level was rated 2 in a German mag rating, behind the thrice priced Ypsilon pre. So the Magnetostat should be much higher. The grain free results from the battery PSU. NATs are superb on bass control, making instruments rounded, tone, separation, dynamics, transparency. They are not as airy as an AR or Jadis, if someone prefers that kind of sound. so if someone is a midrange music lover, NAT not necessary, but as good. They excel on complex acoustical passages.

 

[dctom]

dctom,

Do you mind mentioning everything else you had in the system, including cables?
I've always been curious about Ypsilon gear. Unfortunately, every time I heard it was in less than ideal circunstances, with speakers that I know to be lousy... So not fair!

thanks

Vinyl; Kuzma XL single DC motor, 4pt and ref313 tonearms. Lyra Atlas, Shelter Harmony, Vdh Colibri, PC-3 carts. I use the Lyra Erodion instead of the Ypsilon SUT as it sounds better with the Atlas in my system. Digital playback MPS-5. Speakers and room, see previous post. Although I do also have an IB sub in the ceiling (2x18inch drivers)
eq wizard gives a pretty even response from 20hz to 20khz slight hump at 30/40Hz the bass is about 12/10db down at 10Hz. So very very full range sound, good tight bass all the way down - after treating floor, walls and ceiling.

VertexAQ hi rez int cables+power and equipment support , this is a British company who make a range of energy/vibration control equipment. the room has a dedicated power supply to an isolation buck down transformer (we have over spec voltage) then to an old Furman IT balanced transformer feeding a vertex Taga distribution box. Each individual unit supplied with kimber 8TC from Taga box.

Equipment supported on individual vertex supports sitting on 25mm thick perspex shelves suspended within in a custom made stainless steel rack.

The Kuzma TT is on a hard wood support with a slate and granite sandwich sitting on 4 air springs to isolate the TT surface, weighs about 140/150KG + the TT. I reinforced the floor as it is in an upstairs room. I built this after communicating with Franc Kuzma when the TT was the 4XL version. I seemed to be getting a tiny bit of motor noise. This support is much better than the finite elements support I know some people use for the XL.

hope that helps
Dave

 

[spiritofmusic]

Ooh Dave, that's a mighty fine system.
I'm seriously considering a Kuzma, the Stabi M w/dc psu, and 14" 4Point. No doubt the XL dc poss w/Airline could eek out more detail/air etc, but the M seems to be the dogs' bollocks on heft, natural warmth and thunderous dynamics, and I value these attributes more than the the typical a'fool checklist of uber detail, s'staging etc.
I hope my Ypsilon v Dart v Koda impressions were of help.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

as far as past impressions of the previous version darTZeel NHB-18NS; it was first built in 2005, ten years ago. it's had a number of upgrades to the charging system, the volume control, and other things. it's had 6 different phono stages.....of which I had three different ones. all those various changes did result in clear better performance both as a pre and for the phono. my final version was much better than my first one.

so when you refer to how the previous version dart pre compared directly to particular competitors; it would be helpful to know (if possible) which charging system (were the batteries fresh?), which volume control, and which phono.....it had.

a now 10 year old all original dart pre is a different animal than the last fully updated dart pre I owned.

and then I had the prototype of the new version for a few months, and now I've had the brand all new one for a few months. and that is a whole different level of performance.

 

[dctom]

Just seen your post about Koda - SofM,

It is horses for courses in many ways, I have not heard the Koda. The particular magic with the Ypsilons, for me, is using the two units (pre and phono) together.

Having them side by side with the Dart I could tell the Dart was that bit shrill at times with some music in my system, it could not match the Yepsilons for musical involvement. I am sure this is one of the reasons for Mkii.

What you have upstream and downstream of any phono stage/pre will influence the outcome to a greater or lesser extent.
My Kuzma and Atlas, I think, overwhelmed the Dart. The Yepsilons control the richness and forcefulness of the vinyl in my system and I reiterate, my system, the tone and harmonics linger and fade naturally. One thing I have learned after many years experimenting with gear, it is very interdependent, what works in one system does not necessarily work elsewhere.

The pair seem extraordinarily well matched to the rest of my system, it is the first time I have been almost fooled into thinking it was live music. I left the system playing to go to the loo, when walking back I thought my step son was playing my guitar in the room, as he is wont, only to find he was not there - and that was digital! very unnerving.

 

[spiritofmusic]

Mike, sure. It was 5 yrs ago, that's all I can say. Can't specify anything else. AFAIA, batteries were fully charged, and it was top spec for the time.
For me, I couldn't discern it was anything else other than SS. Had a mild etched quality. Not bad per se, in fact I liked it quite a bit. But having gone to my tube Hovland, the comparison was quite stark.
I feel the Ypsilon and esp Koda just offered more x-factor, esp at the exalted prices in this league. The Koda esp really is a time machine, quite a trip w/the colors on display. Mesmerising.
IMHO/YMMV. Obv.

 

[bonzo75]

The Ypsilon Pre and Aelius (their hybid amp) is on my shortlist to run planars. The phono too expensive though and I will try Thoeress or ASR when I get round to a TT

 

[dctom]

Ooh Dave, that's a mighty fine system.
I'm seriously considering a Kuzma, the Stabi M w/dc psu, and 14" 4Point. No doubt the XL dc poss w/Airline could eek out more detail/air etc, but the M seems to be the dogs' bollocks on heft, natural warmth and thunderous dynamics, and I value these attributes more than the the typical a'fool checklist of uber detail, s'staging etc.
I hope my Ypsilon v Dart v Koda impressions were of help.

Thanks, yes very interesting.
I think you will find the XL+4pt has all the heft and thunder you can handle! although I am sure the M is excellent especially with the new 14 arm.
I think maybe the airline is a bit more lean sounding, than the 4pt, with the XL.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

Mike, sure. It was 5 yrs ago, that's all I can say. Can't specify anything else. AFAIA, batteries were fully charged, and it was top spec for the time.
For me, I couldn't discern it was anything else other than SS. had a mild etched quality. Not bad per se. But having gone to my tube Hovland, the comparison was quite stark.
I feel the Ypsilon and esp Koda just offered more x-factor, esp at the exalted prices in this league. The Koda esp really is a time machine, quite a trip w/the colors on display. Mesmerising.
IMHO/YMMV. Obv.

I'm not questioning anyone's perceptions. that was what you heard. and when it comes to sound character, likely that you would have those feelings regardless of what exact previous version you heard. you have your own viewpoint. but like any really top level piece of gear, the dart pre needs to have a system built around it to compliment it. if my system compliments the more soft sound of a tube preamp, or my ears do, and I insert more truth, then the balance is off for me and my system until either I adjust or the system does.

and then there is the synergy with the dart amplifiers; using the 'zeel' interface really takes things to another level. if your system and tastes like as little influence as possible.

but what the dart pre does; is lower the noise floor and get out of the way. and if one prefers a bit more 'influence' from a pre then it might not be a good fit. my system is all about what the dart pre does. I know how frequent visitors to my room who are tube users reacted to the new dart pre in my system, and also recall how they reacted to when I added the big 458 monos. you forget about the whole ss - tube issue. it's just music.

in regards to the older dart pre version; the more upgraded ones simply have lower noise floors.

 

[spiritofmusic]

Dave, I'm just not a great fan of the trend for seperate plinths, motors and arm pods. Me? I'm a traditionalist who likes an "all in one box/one arm only" option, and the M does this in spades.
For me, I said I'd never move back to belt drive w/the hike in torque I have on my direct rim drive, and I said I'd never revisit pivoted arms w/the tangential geometry issues sorted w/my air bearing linear tracker. But the amazing torque on offer w/the M, and the near-elimination of tangential issues w/a 14" arm, is seriously tempting me back. And at £20k for the M/14" 4Point combination, that's a mighty attractive price, when you can drop 2-3x on alternatives which are not likely to be any better, and may even come up short.

 

[dctom]

as far as past impressions of the previous version darTZeel NHB-18NS; it was first built in 2005, ten years ago. it's had a number of upgrades to the charging system, the volume control, and other things. it's had 6 different phono stages.....of which I had three different ones. all those various changes did result in clear better performance both as a pre and for the phono. my final version was much better than my first one.

so when you refer to how the previous version dart pre compared directly to particular competitors; it would be helpful to know (if possible) which charging system (were the batteries fresh?), which volume control, and which phono.....it had.

a now 10 year old all original dart pre is a different animal than the last fully updated dart pre I owned.

and then I had the prototype of the new version for a few months, and now I've had the brand all new one for a few months. and that is a whole different level of performance.

Mike

I know you are a Dartzeel fan as I am, I was hoping to purchase the New NHB18s myself, having read your comments about the new one.
The Pre I had is now about 7yrs old, TZ UB 18NS – 061A, the phono was a later version than the original, the amp had the stepped volume control and had new batteries.
The thing with the 18Ns of course is it is so well matched to your Dart power amps which is an additional factor in it's favour.

 

[dctom]

The Ypsilon Pre and Aelius (their hybid amp) is on my shortlist to run planars. The phono too expensive though and I will try Thoeress or ASR when I get round to a TT

Hi Bonzo
I borrowed the Thoeress prior to getting the Yepsilons. It did not work so well with the Atlas, preferred the Lyra through the Dartzeel phono. However it made the Colibri sound fantastic.

 

[bonzo75]

Hi Bonzo
I borrowed the Thoeress prior to getting the Yepsilons. It did not work so well with the Atlas, preferred the Lyra through the Dartzeel phono. However it made the Colibri sound fantastic.

What do you think with Koetsu Coralstone or Ortofon A90?

 

[dctom]

What do you think with Koetsu Coralstone or Ortofon A90?

It gives quite a warm sound so might be more suited towards the A90 which I believe is fairly neutral?, although I must admit, I am not familiar with either of these cartridges.
Have you looked at Yepsilons from the EU purchased with euros?

 

[dctom]

I take your point SofM
Purchased my XL4 prior to the M coming out made sense upgrade to the Dc version.
you have a very nice system btw - would like to have listen some time if possible.