New to WBF, seeking turntable knowledge

[reTurningHome]

Hi all, I am new to WBF and so I did a bit of searching on here before making this post but it seems I am seeking a very specific set of qualities for one or two new-to-me turntable acquisitions. Can you please recommend a turntable that has the following qualities?

-fully automatic or semi automatic (auto-stop)
-adjustable vta and all the other important adjustments and alignments can be made
-compatible with good cartridges/good sound
-relatively reliable

The Technics SL1600 MKII is the only one I know of that is close to these qualifications, though I fear the reliability is questionable at this point since looking at ebay currently most of the sl1600 MKII are for parts not working.

Do you know of any others?

Bonus: ideally but optionally I would love to have a built-in cueing light/ target light/ stylus light usually seen only on fully manual turntables, some of them pop-up as on the lovely Technics SL1200 (I am open to an aftermarket cueing light if there is such a thing, does anyone know if there is such a thing? I want it because at night I sometimes like low lighting and accurate stylus placement, not one or the other

Thank you for reading and any replies!
B

 

[MichelVanA]

Hi B,

Welcome. Actually i am quite new here at WBF myself too.

As for turntables, i don't have a definitive answer to your question, but i hope i'm able to help you further.
1. Set a budget and start from there, as it is much easier to search within a somewhat limited range of available turntables.
2. Try to limit which cartridges you would like to use. For example, set a budget, choose MC or MM.

Usually, MC cartridges have a lower output, so you need sufficient gain in your phono stage. Also, for MC you need adjustable resistive loading. This are usually values from 100 Ohms up to 47 kOhms. Because MC cartridges usually have stiffer cantilever suspensions, you need a heavier arm, or better: an arm with higher effective mass.
The MM cartridges usually have a softer suspension, so you need an arm with lower effective mass, and you may need an adjustable capacitive loading. If i remember correct, the SL-1200's have a relatively light arm, so this steers you towards an MM cartridge.
Personally, i prefer MC cartridges, but as said your gear must be able to amplify this correct.
Of course we are all music lovers and audiophiles, and usually our dreams are formed at audio shows, gear of good friends, excellent shops. Chasing a dream and act upon it is often more worthwhile than just buy something that is advised by others.

 

[Neil.Antin]

Thorens is one the few reliable vendors that currently manufactures automatic tables - https://www.thorens.com/en/products/thorens®-turntables.html, you will see there a few listed. The TD-1601 with arm that has VTA adjustment is about $6200. The TD 102 A is about $1200, but no VTA adjustment. There are other Thorens, just read the user manual to determine what features the arm has.

Otherwise, there are tonearm auto lifting devices that can make any table semi-automatic such as https://www.audio-technica.com/en-us/at6006r and https://www.integrityhifi.ca/tru-lift that will significantly expand your options for tables.

As far as lighting, most people just use something such as https://reliablecorporation.com/pages/3200tl which is relatively inexpensive and sold at many sites.

 

[daytona600]

F400 – Rekkord

www.rekkord-audio.com

A2 – Pro-Ject Audio Systems

www.project-audio.com

 

[Sampajanna]

My Little Fwend is a product that turns any TT into an automatic one in terms of lifting the tonearm. I love mine!\

Little Fwend™

www.littlefwend.com

 

[Another Johnson]

I would second Neil’s suggestion to look at Thorens.

 

[reTurningHome]

Hi B,

Welcome. Actually i am quite new here at WBF myself too.

As for turntables, i don't have a definitive answer to your question, but i hope i'm able to help you further.
1. Set a budget and start from there, as it is much easier to search within a somewhat limited range of available turntables.
2. Try to limit which cartridges you would like to use. For example, set a budget, choose MC or MM.

Usually, MC cartridges have a lower output, so you need sufficient gain in your phono stage. Also, for MC you need adjustable resistive loading. This are usually values from 100 Ohms up to 47 kOhms. Because MC cartridges usually have stiffer cantilever suspensions, you need a heavier arm, or better: an arm with higher effective mass.
The MM cartridges usually have a softer suspension, so you need an arm with lower effective mass, and you may need an adjustable capacitive loading. If i remember correct, the SL-1200's have a relatively light arm, so this steers you towards an MM cartridge.
Personally, i prefer MC cartridges, but as said your gear must be able to amplify this correct.
Of course we are all music lovers and audiophiles, and usually our dreams are formed at audio shows, gear of good friends, excellent shops. Chasing a dream and act upon it is often more worthwhile than just buy something that is advised by others.

Thanks MichelVanA!

 

[reTurningHome]

Hi B,

Welcome. Actually i am quite new here at WBF myself too.

As for turntables, i don't have a definitive answer to your question, but i hope i'm able to help you further.
1. Set a budget and start from there, as it is much easier to search within a somewhat limited range of available turntables.
2. Try to limit which cartridges you would like to use. For example, set a budget, choose MC or MM.

Usually, MC cartridges have a lower output, so you need sufficient gain in your phono stage. Also, for MC you need adjustable resistive loading. This are usually values from 100 Ohms up to 47 kOhms. Because MC cartridges usually have stiffer cantilever suspensions, you need a heavier arm, or better: an arm with higher effective mass.
The MM cartridges usually have a softer suspension, so you need an arm with lower effective mass, and you may need an adjustable capacitive loading. If i remember correct, the SL-1200's have a relatively light arm, so this steers you towards an MM cartridge.
Personally, i prefer MC cartridges, but as said your gear must be able to amplify this correct.
Of course we are all music lovers and audiophiles, and usually our dreams are formed at audio shows, gear of good friends, excellent shops. Chasing a dream and act upon it is often more worthwhile than just buy something that is advised by others.

what makes you prefer about MC carts? I have not heard them side by side and am curious to learn more about the differences.

 

[reTurningHome]

Thorens is one the few reliable vendors that currently manufactures automatic tables - https://www.thorens.com/en/products/thorens®-turntables.html, you will see there a few listed. The TD-1601 with arm that has VTA adjustment is about $6200. The TD 102 A is about $1200, but no VTA adjustment. There are other Thorens, just read the user manual to determine what features the arm has.

Otherwise, there are tonearm auto lifting devices that can make any table semi-automatic such as https://www.audio-technica.com/en-us/at6006r and https://www.integrityhifi.ca/tru-lift that will significantly expand your options for tables.

As far as lighting, most people just use something such as https://reliablecorporation.com/pages/3200tl which is relatively inexpensive and sold at many sites.

Thank you Neal.Antin, this is super helpful. I will check out the links

 

[reTurningHome]

F400 – Rekkord

www.rekkord-audio.com

A2 – Pro-Ject Audio Systems

www.project-audio.com

View attachment 138806

thank you I will check these out

 

[reTurningHome]

My Little Fwend is a product that turns any TT into an automatic one in terms of lifting the tonearm. I love mine!\

Little Fwend™

www.littlefwend.com

Sweet, Thank you! I will check it out

 

[reTurningHome]

I would second Neil’s suggestion to look at Thorens.

Thank you. Always appreciate the reminder I am relaxed about it. My old vintage automatic technics I got at a yardsale for $12 broke and the local repair shop said they wouldn't or couldn't fix it so in a pinch I got a cheap audio technica lp60 for $75 on CL to tide me over, and offensively, it doesn't play the record at the correct speed and you can't adjust it...buuuuut I still like it quite well anyways. Turns out there's lots of goodness. I am just figuring out these other details for when the time comes that I want to upgrade it in the next few years likely, after I treat my room.

 

[MichelVanA]

what makes you prefer about MC carts? I have not heard them side by side and am curious to learn more about the differences.

To me the MC cartridges sound more "real" compared to the MM cartridges i had in the past. But i made the choice for MC long ago (my Linn era in the 70's..), i haven't compared MC against MM recently. My turntable has an arm (Goldmund T3B) that works best with MC because of the mass, and because the choice of cartridge can limit the choice of arm (and table), it is best to start from there imo.
Is your preamp capable of amplifing MC (around +60 dB amplification and resistive load setting)? If so, i'd say go for MC.
Otherwise, there are many good MM cartridges, hopefully others can jump in. Try to listen to a few before you decide, although anything turntable related comparisons are always difficult (table, arm, cartridge).

 

[Another Johnson]

what makes you prefer about MC carts? I have not heard them side by side and am curious to learn more about the differences.

I’ve been doing fairly intense comparisons of two copies of the MM flagship Clearaudio Charisma V2 ($2200 msrp) against the mid level Clearaudio Jubilee MC ($6600 msrp) and the Lyra Etna Lambda (MC $9875? current msrp). The Charisma V2 and the Jubilee MC use the same boron cantilever and polished double line diamond as the $17k Clearaudio Goldfinger.

In the case of the Charisma, one had 50 hours on a Clearaudio Universal 12 (gimbal 12” arm) with VTA base, and the other had 50 hours on a Clearaudio linear tracking TT2.

The Clearaudio Jubilee MC has about 20 hours on the TT2. The Lyra Etna Lambda has been my reference on a Linn Ekos SE for more than 200 hours.

In isolation, all four of these are really enjoyable combinations. But while the Charisma V2 is dynamic, detailed, and convincing, when I switch to either of the MC cartridges, the level of sophistication and realism goes up noticeably. It is not subtle to the ears of a seasoned listener.

The Jubilee MC is still breaking in. But the Jubilee MC/TT2 combination is the first option I’ve had here that rivals the Linn/Lyra for its ability to present inky black silence. It is also the first combination here that makes it difficult to choose whether my reference really is better than the “new option.” I am going to wait another 30 hours of break in on the Jubilee MC before deciding.

I suppose that the relevant point here is that comparing the best MMs to the better to best MCs leads many listeners to choose the MC. Comparisons between better MMs and lower to mid range MCs are harder to generalize. A lot of what you hear is directly tied to the synergism (or lack of synergism) with your phono preamplifier. The arm, the set up, and the rest of the system are big factors in what you hear too. Your ears are a big part of it too.

If I were you, I would pick the table and arm. Then the cartridge and phono preamp. At a budget level (say under $5k for all four), the synergism may drive the choice … if you don’t do direct comparisons to higher level gear, it is possible to be very happy with the more modestly priced choices.

YMMV

 

[reTurningHome]

To me the MC cartridges sound more "real" compared to the MM cartridges i had in the past. But i made the choice for MC long ago (my Linn era in the 70's..), i haven't compared MC against MM recently. My turntable has an arm (Goldmund T3B) that works best with MC because of the mass, and because the choice of cartridge can limit the choice of arm (and table), it is best to start from there imo.
Is your preamp capable of amplifing MC (around +60 dB amplification and resistive load setting)? If so, i'd say go for MC.
Otherwise, there are many good MM cartridges, hopefully others can jump in. Try to listen to a few before you decide, although anything turntable related comparisons are always difficult (table, arm, cartridge).

yes thanks for sharing that. I am still in the listening and learning phase for sure. Trying to branch out and learn what I like on many fronts. very fun!

 

[MichelVanA]

You're welcome. As i tried to explain in my first post, others (me included) can advise a lot, but you're the one that knows the constraints. By this i mean budget, you probably want to add a new table and arm only; not also a new preamplifier. This limits your choices and makes it eventually easier to make a choice. Maybe you could write us which preamp (or phono amp) you have?
Btw, Another Johnson also had good tips and i fully agree the Clearaudio lineup is quite good. I (still..) use the Accurate, but the Goldfinger is tempting. Point is i am not sure it suits my arm as good. Here also, budget constraints are the limiting factor.

About the learning: yeah this is great fun. The fun thing about audio is one can have fun with music, but also playing with gear, try to improve the sound, understand the physics. And meet great people.

 

[reTurningHome]

I’ve been doing fairly intense comparisons of two copies of the MM flagship Clearaudio Charisma V2 ($2200 msrp) against the mid level Clearaudio Jubilee MC ($6600 msrp) and the Lyra Etna Lambda (MC $9875? current msrp). The Charisma V2 and the Jubilee MC use the same boron cantilever and polished double line diamond as the $17k Clearaudio Goldfinger.

In the case of the Charisma, one had 50 hours on a Clearaudio Universal 12 (gimbal 12” arm) with VTA base, and the other had 50 hours on a Clearaudio linear tracking TT2.

The Clearaudio Jubilee MC has about 20 hours on the TT2. The Lyra Etna Lambda has been my reference on a Linn Ekos SE for more than 200 hours.

In isolation, all four of these are really enjoyable combinations. But while the Charisma V2 is dynamic, detailed, and convincing, when I switch to either of the MC cartridges, the level of sophistication and realism goes up noticeably. It is not subtle to the ears of a seasoned listener.

The Jubilee MC is still breaking in. But the Jubilee MC/TT2 combination is the first option I’ve had here that rivals the Linn/Lyra for its ability to present inky black silence. It is also the first combination here that makes it difficult to choose whether my reference really is better than the “new option.” I am going to wait another 30 hours of break in on the Jubilee MC before deciding.

I suppose that the relevant point here is that comparing the best MMs to the better to best MCs leads many listeners to choose the MC. Comparisons between better MMs and lower to mid range MCs are harder to generalize. A lot of what you hear is directly tied to the synergism (or lack of synergism) with your phono preamplifier. The arm, the set up, and the rest of the system are big factors in what you hear too. Your ears are a big part of it too.

If I were you, I would pick the table and arm. Then the cartridge and phono preamp. At a budget level (say under $5k for all four), the synergism may drive the choice … if you don’t do direct comparisons to higher level gear, it is possible to be very happy with the more modestly priced choices.

YMMV

haha, good advice re not doing comparisons to higher level gear so as not to ruin enjoyment of what I have. Sometimes I feel fortunate and enjoy my ear's current state of seasonedness while I can, as they become even more discerning in the future

You're welcome. As i tried to explain in my first post, others (me included) can advise a lot, but you're the one that knows the constraints. By this i mean budget, you probably want to add a new table and arm only; not also a new preamplifier. This limits your choices and makes it eventually easier to make a choice. Maybe you could write us which preamp (or phono amp) you have?
Btw, Another Johnson also had good tips and i fully agree the Clearaudio lineup is quite good. I (still..) use the Accurate, but the Goldfinger is tempting. Point is i am not sure it suits my arm as good. Here also, budget constraints are the limiting factor.

About the learning: yeah this is great fun. The fun thing about audio is one can have fun with music, but also playing with gear, try to improve the sound, understand the physics. And meet great people.

 

[Another Johnson]

haha, good advice re not doing comparisons to higher level gear so as not to ruin enjoyment of what I have. Sometimes I feel fortunate and enjoy my ear's current state of seasonedness while I can,

Comparison often leads to dissatisfaction. Enhanced discernment is not always a blessing.
In proverbs attributed to Odin in the writings of Snorre Sturlusen (sp?), Odin suggests that it is best to be “middling wise.”

If you like what you have, be like Sargent Carter in the Andy Griffith movie and “don’t rock your boat.”

 

[reTurningHome]

haha, good advice re not doing comparisons to higher level gear so as not to ruin enjoyment of what I have. Sometimes I feel fortunate and enjoy my ear's current state of seasonedness while I can, as they become even more discerning in the future

wise words...