No way to make it better!

[DaveyF]

Now for my question to the designer Dan Khesin about his upcoming subwoofer...
I was amazed at his answer:

Dan stated that ALL subwoofers are a disaster when placed into a system that is highly revealing! He backed up this statement by saying that no subwoofer can be correctly matched with the main sats so that there is not a complete disconnect between the subs and mains. He felt that only with extensive room calibration could anyone have any chance of matching the two very different drivers. He also felt that subs almost always overload the room, going so far as to say that many are causing room flex, etc.
To go on, he stated that his new sub would come with a laptop computer and some kind of software that would allow the factory to "see" how your particular room was impacting the speaker and therefore allow for adjustment from the factory on a remote basis This seemed a little "over the top" BUT that is what he feels needs to be done in order to have any chance of getting the blend correct. I do agree that getting the blend correct by ear is very difficult, BUT I believe it is not only possible, BUT with patience and experimentation very doable. I believe in my system that I was able to do exactly this.
His comments seemed VERY strange to me since he is apparently preparing to manufacture a sub ( according to his web page).
Another interesting comment from Dan....all of his speaker's, regardless of price, are of the same quality; only difference is the way said speaker should be utilized in the room. So, his most expensive speaker will perform and be built exactly the same way as his least expensive, performance dependent on the room that it designed for..
Interesting ideas and an interesting company....Are they the next Magico or YG????

 

[puroagave]

Where to start with my impressions of these speakers.....

Thanks for the scoop on a significant new product, likewise making meaningful assessments after one session with unfamiliar ancillary gear and music is difficult at best. I hope you haven't written them off, actually your comments piqued my interest in these speakers ...and about the music, was it familiar to you, what was played and how does it handle 'real' music? I've noticed manufactuers will use well recorded tracks of unfamilar music to point out strengths in their products that would flatter just about any speaker - at that point you're not listensing to music per say but for sound effects.

Any word if these guys are showing at the upcoming Newport show?

 

[DaveyF]

Rob, I asked one of the reps from the company if they will be at Newport. Apparently, they are considering it. I agree that making assessments with unfamiliar gear is difficult at best, plus the room wasn't that great either, IMO.
However, i thought the Linn amps seemed to be a fair match to the speakers, not a great match as I would have VERY much have liked to hear them with a high power tube amp. Unfortunately, they are too inefficient to work well with a low powered tube amp. The music that was demo'ed was somewhat unfamiliar ( clearly picked by the manufacturer to show off a few pertinent areas) and also some more familiar classical pieces. My impressions were pretty much the same regardless of the piece demo'ed. I will be VERY interested to see how these speakers are received as time goes by. In some ways they are world beaters, in others they are nothing special at all! Like I said at the beginning of my post today, they are really perplexing to me.

 

[GaryProtein]

Iirc this was a review from 2007 , this is the discontinued polymer logic , the mk2 version uses indeed the scanspeak berylium (as do a lot of other manufacturers , or use parts of it )
The mks is diamond mid and highs , and believe me those units are expensive especially the mid units !!!
Very well constructed speakers by the way and costly , milling aluminium or alu alloy from the thickness as the front baffle is done is not cheap and i know from expirience

A manufacturer is entitled to charge whatever they want as long as they have a buyer, but any company saying a unit is expensive because it has X number of carats of diamond in the speaker cone is FLAT OUT LYING. Industrial diamond dust material (they aren't using Flawless D diamonds in the cones) sells for about $150-200 a KILOGRAM and everyone knows you want the cone to be low in mass.

 

[Jazzhead]

--
BTW, I had a very pleasant chat with a fellow attendee who owns both the Wilson Alex 2's and Marten Coltrane's. He felt that these Polymer's KILLED his Alex 2's in several areas, particularly in the ability of the diamond driver's to reveal information. An interesting perspective, because when i asked him If he had heard the new XLF's he said he had and that in his opinion, the new tweeter did NOT change the overall presentation of the Wilson speaker. He is now trying to sell his Alex 2's!
I'm not sure I agree with him here!

Davey.. thanks for your detailed impressions , was an interesting read . Would you happen to which Coltrane your fellow listener owns , is it the Coltrane 2 . Did he mention as to how the Marten compares ?

 

[DaveyF]

Davey.. thanks for your detailed impressions , was an interesting read . Would you happen to which Coltrane your fellow listener owns , is it the Coltrane 2 . Did he mention as to how the Marten compares ?

Jazz, as far as I remember, it is the Coltrane 2. He was telling me that it is replacing his Wilson Alex 2's. Also, he told me that it took him a long time to get over the fact that the Wilson's were not up to the Coltrane's, which has only now led him to put the Wilson's up for sale. We were discussing the Marten's because the designer of the Polymer's had told us that the only other speaker that he was aware of that used the same kind of diamond driver's were the Coltrane Supreme's.

 

[LL21]

Wow...Davey, that is great stuff. Thanks for the excellent read. I think what most intrigued me was their unbending dedication to construction/design/parts. It is certainly a good start...but the design is always the art elements, which must be blended with the science in many things, including audio.

With some people liking the Magico Q7 with Zanden, i do wonder also what the Polymer Logics and tubes would be like for your ears (or mine most likely). I also wonder if the sub will help increase the sense of space, size, scale, dynamics. It should.

As for Coltranes, i have a friend who owns the big Gryphon Poseidens and despite numerous changes to his electronics over the many years...those have not. He is now investigating the Coltrane Supremes. I missed a chance to hear them...but understand extraordinary accuracy is certainly one of their many talents.

In the end, hopefully there is something to be learned from here...in terms of the ability for the speaker to reveal things that perhaps many (most?) speaker do not even at the uppermost of the high end.

As for Alexandria 2s...i like them for many reasons...mainly their balanced set of traits in a comparatively workable, flexible size (20x24 footprint). They are highly resolved but today, its not an outright detail freaks first choice in pure detail...but for me, there is more than enough there, and i prefer its many other great attributes.

As for XLFs, evolutionary not revolutionary imho...while many seem to have traded in their X2s for XLFs as i am told by the Distributor...i did not find it so dramatic a set of improvements. imho of course.

Thanks again, Davey! That was quite cool to hear about it and then get your thoughts in one weekend.

 

[Jazzhead]

Lloyd.. the last I heard the Poseidon in question was up FS , looks like the Supremes are staying. You reckon the "Z" 9600's can get it up to drive the Q7 ?

 

[andromedaaudio]

Isophon also uses a 50 mm diamond mid http://www.gauderakustik.com/de/berlina-rc-11 supposedly its called gauder akustiek nowadays
Video :http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uFUAEO5eIvM

 

[LL21]

Lloyd...You reckon the "Zanden" 9600's can get it up to drive the Q7 ?

Hi Jazzhead...i honestly do not know myself. I only know what i have been told by 3 people who heard the Zanden monos drive the Q7 in Amsterdam...all 3 said it was one of the best sounds ever. And i know someone who has heard the SF Aidas driven by Zanden monos and felt the monos seemed to be the equal of the great Lamm ML3s and drove the Aidas extremely well.

 

[microstrip]

(...) As for XLFs, evolutionary not revolutionary imho...while many seem to have traded in their X2s for XLFs as i am told by the Distributor...i did not find it so dramatic a set of improvements. imho of course.

Well, I listened to both - I had the X2 in my system for a few months and I find that the XLF is really a dramatic improvement over the X2. I have to say I valuate a lot the seamless sound reproduction of a single panel electrostatic and both the Aida's and the XLF's are exemplary in this aspect - something I found that the X2 lacked. This does not mean that the X2 is not a great speaker - if it was not for the exposition to the other speakers and mostly to the TheSonusfaber I would not be so exigent. All IMHO.

 

[LL21]

Well, I listened to both - I had the X2 in my system for a few months and I find that the XLF is really a dramatic improvement over the X2. I have to say I valuate a lot the seamless sound reproduction of a single panel electrostatic and both the Aida's and the XLF's are exemplary in this aspect - something I found that the X2 lacked. This does not mean that the X2 is not a great speaker - if it was not for the exposition to the other speakers and mostly to the TheSonusfaber I would not be so exigent. All IMHO.

Interesting, Micro. You know panels better than I do having lived with one of the greats. S your comments i take seriouslu. i really like panels a lot...Apogee Stages are one of my all time favorite speakers. Few panels have seriously big power, slam like cones...hence why I stuck with cones.

I was impressed by how quiet the XlF was in between notes...no overhang. So...i suppose Like a panel in that respect...and superior to X2...but was not blown away relative to X2...whereas genesis 1.1 was a game changer for me in certain respects. In light of your comment about xlf, happy to listen to them again.

Based on advice given by engineer I trust who has done loads of wilson setups, I'd try to actively crossover Wilson X2 with Wilson's electronic crossover and connect dedicated amp straight to bass first before going straight to XLF. of course it wont make metal dome into silk dome, but I am told the number of benefits would be many in terms of linearity, control and superior bass.

 

[mep]

Interesting, Micro. You know panels better than I do having lived with one of the greats. S your comments i take seriouslu. i really like panels a lot...Apogee Stages are one of my all time favorite speakers. Few panels have seriously big power, slam like cones.

I was impressed by how quiet the XlF was in between notes...no overhang. Like a panel in that respecti think...and superior to X2...but was not blown away relative to X2...whereas genesis 1.1 was a game changer for me in certain respects. In lint of your comment, happy to listen to them again.

Based on advice given by engineer I trust who has doneloads od wilson setups, I'd try to actively crossover Wilson X2 with Wilson crossover and connect dedicated amp straight to bass first before going straight to XLF. of course it wont make metal dome into silk dome, but I am told the number of benefits would be many in terms of linearity, control and superior bass.

Lloyd-Have you been drinking?

 

[LL21]

Interesting, Micro. You know panels better than I do having lived with one of the greats. S your comments i take seriouslu. i really like panels a lot...Apogee Stages are one of my all time favorite speakers. Few panels have seriously big power, slam like cones...hence why I stuck with cones.

I was impressed by how quiet the XlF was in between notes...no overhang. So...i suppose Like a panel in that respect...and superior to X2...but was not blown away relative to X2...whereas genesis 1.1 was a game changer for me in certain respects. In light of your comment about xlf, happy to listen to them again.

Based on advice given by engineer I trust who has done loads of wilson setups, I'd try to actively crossover Wilson X2 with Wilson's electronic crossover and connect dedicated amp straight to bass first before going straight to XLF. of course it wont make metal dome into silk dome, but I am told the number of benefits would be many in terms of linearity, control and superior bass.

Lloyd-Have you been drinking?

first time using an ipad...do not like these screen boards at all! got sick and tired of trying to fix all the typos!

 

[mep]

first time using an ipad...do not like these screen boards at all! got sick and tired of trying to fix all the typos!

First time using an iPad, I will have to remember that one.

 

[LL21]

First time using an iPad, I will have to remember that one.

i hate these screen keyboards on phones...i like a real keyboard and prefer blackberrys. of course, i've also never downloaded an mp3 file and still use redbook, so what do i know?

i got an i-something or other from my brother 7 years ago (ipod?) and its still sitting on the shelf unused.

 

[mep]

Lloyd-Some of your words were misspelled so horrendously that I figured you were just hammered when you were typing them out.

 

[LL21]

Lloyd-Some of your words were misspelled so horrendously that I figured you were just hammered when you were typing them out.

definitively not!

 

[c1ferrari]

Hi Davey,

Thanks for attending and sharing your perspective.
Mother's Day wasn't the day for me to hear the loudspeakers, though

 

[DaveyF]

Hi Sam,
I totally agree that the timing of this event was IMO inappropriate.BTW, I'm not so sure that other attendees would agree with my impressions of the sound that day. Oddly, i keep on thinking how extraordinary the two diamond drivers were. I would not be surprised one bit if in the near future another manufacturer utilizes these in a speaker that may well have no peer.
As an aside, are you attending Newport again this year?