Noise. That damned demon you may not even know about...

[treitz3]

Noise.

It permeates. It infiltrates. It is a deficiency that many here (and elsewhere) know nothing about.

There is a difference between a grey background and a calm, completely black void of any sound, within images, instruments or sweet nothings/whispers.

There are many different ways to achieve this. If you understand what "noise" actually is?

Tell us how you thwarted it.

Tom

 

[Holmz]

Noise.

It permeates. It infiltrates. It is a deficiency that many here (and elsewhere) know nothing about.

There is a difference between a grey background and a calm, completely black void of any sound, within images, instruments or sweet nothings/whispers.

There are many different ways to achieve this. If you understand what "noise" actually is?

Tell us how you thwarted it.

Tom

There is no dishonour in quantifying it with with an ADC and signal capture, or with an eye on an o-scope.

Even if one cannot hear it, but seems to create a bit of cognitive-calmness to see the level go from being < inaudible, to down another 10dB with component placement and/or cable routing.

(If one is a photographer then it is one of the 7 shades of grey darker than before.
If it’s a porn star scale, then the shades of grey is in quanta levels of 1/50th versus 7 shades.)

Hence noise is like B/W, and distortions are like colour.

 

[sbnx]

Tom,

This is a topic I am very passionate about. Noise kills the music.

In my experience, there are layers, and layers and layers of noise coming from all kinds of different sources. Each layer removed reveals more music -- more pure tone, more spatial and time information. There are all kinds of products that help reduce noise. Some people refer to these as tweeks. To me, they are essential.

For example, one of the biggest sources of noise is ethernet. As soon as an ethernet cable is plugged into a system it floods the system with noise. A good, low noise switch, shielded ethernet cable and some type of ethernet filter go a long way in helping mitigate this.

 

[Republicoftexas69]

Gummies and mushroom tea.

 

[Elliot G.]

Tom,

This is a topic I am very passionate about. Noise kills the music.

In my experience, there are layers, and layers and layers of noise coming from all kinds of different sources. Each layer removed reveals more music -- more pure tone, more spatial and time information. There are all kinds of products that help reduce noise. Some people refer to these as tweeks. To me, they are essential.

For example, one of the biggest sources of noise is ethernet. As soon as an ethernet cable is plugged into a system it floods the system with noise. A good, low noise switch, shielded ethernet cable and some type of ethernet filter go a long way in helping mitigate this.

in fact the production and playback of the music itself brings noise.
Thats why power, ethernet, grounding and cabling are important. I agree Todd
I recently went to hear someone's really high end and big dollar system chocked full of serious brand name products and when the system was played the noise level was offensive. I am so used to a system without all of this noise that it was virtually impossible for me to listen to what they were playing. The music as Mozart and Debussy said "is in the spaces between the notes " and in this case those spaces were gone.

 

[Billgates307]

I have many demons i know about, but there is a solution.
After a bottle of whiskey i have the blackest demonfree background ever experienced by mankind.

 

[sbnx]

in fact the production and playback of the music itself brings noise.
Thats why power, ethernet, grounding and cabling are important. I agree Todd
I recently went to hear someone's really high end and big dollar system chocked full of serious brand name products and when the system was played the noise level was offensive. I am so used to a system without all of this noise that it was virtually impossible for me to listen to what they were playing. The music as Mozart and Debussy said "is in the spaces between the notes " and in this case those spaces were gone.

I agree. I hear systems all the time that are full of noise an no one seems to notice. It feels like most think they can just buy really great big boxes (Amp, preamp, DAC, etc) and think they have great sound. Then they upgrade one of the big boxes while they have not taken care of the foundation.

If someone wants to learn to hear this I find it fairly easy to demonstrate. Then once they get it; they get it.

 

[ADGold]

I recently introduced Entreq grounding boxes and grounding cables into my system. My understanding is that their only contribution is to eliminate ground noise from the signal. While my expectations for their overall sonic benefits were somewhat modest, the impact was transformational.

 

[Kingsrule]

in fact the production and playback of the music itself brings noise.
Thats why power, ethernet, grounding and cabling are important. I agree Todd
I recently went to hear someone's really high end and big dollar system chocked full of serious brand name products and when the system was played the noise level was offensive. I am so used to a system without all of this noise that it was virtually impossible for me to listen to what they were playing. The music as Mozart and Debussy said "is in the spaces between the notes " and in this case those spaces were gone.

So what did u do to clean the noise up?

 

[Lee]

I’m creating new slides on this for my setup presentation at the Atlanta Audio Club, April 27th.

Content covers line conditioning, grounding, and isolation. What I have found is very effective is focusing on anything digital including hard drives, computers, routers, wireless access points, etc.

 

[Lee]

So what did u do to clean the noise up?

He used Shunyata gear at the Florida show.

 

[Lee]

I recently introduced Entreq grounding boxes and grounding cables into my system. My understanding is that their only contribution is to eliminate ground noise from the signal. While my expectations for their overall sonic benefits were somewhat modest, the impact was transformational.

What’s great about grounding is that it’s a three-for…bass, mids, and highs all improve.

 

[oldvinyl]

Noise.

Tell us how you thwarted it.

Tom

Started with subpanel for AC power for the stereo gear. The subpanel has its own ground rods inserted in the ground (earth) just outside the room the subpanel is located in. Used home run wiring to each outlet (four 20 amp dedicated lines).
Replaced the power umbilicals from Aesthetix Io power supplies to the phono stage with higher purity copper wires that shield each wire pair, then add a shield on the bundle. Replacement umbilicals were made by Audience.
Replaced the 12AX7s in the Aesthetix Io phono stage and power supplies with tubes screened for low noise.
Replaced the transformers in the Aesthetix Io power supplies with new transformers that are specifically design to reduce noise.
Replaced the electrolytic capacitors in the Aesthetix Io power supplies with lower noise types.
Replaced the rectifier bridge in my Cary monoblocks with parallel sets of hexfreds (higher speed, lower noise).
Replaced the power umbilicals in my Cary monoblocks with shielded power cables.
Replaced the 6SN7 and 6BL7 tubes in my Cary monoblocks with tubes screened for low noise.
Selected a moving coil cartridge with a medium output (for low output moving coil, 0.5 mV versus other cartridges with 0.2 mV output).

And you?

 

[Holmz]

Tom,

This is a topic I am very passionate about. Noise kills the music.

In my experience, there are layers, and layers and layers of noise coming from all kinds of different sources. Each layer removed reveals more music -- more pure tone, more spatial and time information. There are all kinds of products that help reduce noise. Some people refer to these as tweeks. To me, they are essential.

For example, one of the biggest sources of noise is ethernet. As soon as an ethernet cable is plugged into a system it floods the system with noise. A good, low noise switch, shielded ethernet cable and some type of ethernet filter go a long way in helping mitigate this.

Ok - prove it.
It is like the ravings of an asylum without some evidence that it exists.

If it is ethernet signals, then are they on the wires, or in the ether?
There are specific rates for eithernet, we should be able to see those as rate lines with an FFT.

Without something like that, is has more of a smell (stink) of salesmanship, and FOMO in terms of something that may or may not exist.

More of these “tweak things” are spruicked in similar ways.

 

[sbnx]

Ok - prove it.
It is like the ravings of an asylum without some evidence that it exists.

If it is ethernet signals, then are they on the wires, or in the ether?
There are specific rates for eithernet, we should be able to see those as rate lines with an FFT.

Without something like that, is has more of a smell (stink) of salesmanship, and FOMO in terms of something that may or may not exist.

More of these “tweak things” are spruicked in similar ways.

If you think this is salesmanship, I invite you to find posts from me before 2024 when I became a dealer. These are things I firmly believe make a difference. Really more than believe; I know they make a difference. It is quite easy to demonstate to someone willing to listen.

The easiest demo is to put things into place one at a time -- A/B'ing as we go along. Each step a little better. Then after 4 of 5 things are in place listen to the beginning of a song. Then remove all of them at once and it is very noticiable how bad the music sounds without them.

But somehow, based on your post, I think your mind is already made up. Peace. Listen to music and enjoy.

 

[Holmz]

If you think this is salesmanship, I invite you to find posts from me before 2024 when I became a dealer. These are things I firmly believe make a difference. Really more than believe; I know they make a difference. It is quite easy to demonstate to someone willing to listen.

The easiest demo is to put things into place one at a time -- A/B'ing as we go along. Each step a little better. Then after 4 of 5 things are in place listen to the beginning of a song. Then remove all of them at once and it is very noticiable how bad the music sounds without them.

I understand.

However I am somewhat remote, and it is a lot easier to see that the noise floor is lower, or spurs removed, then trying to A/B something in another city, in another room, from another power station, on other equipment.
It seems like it has no bearing upon me and my system/my needs.

And then there is the psychology of wanting to hear a difference.

But somehow, based on your post, I think your mind is already made up. Peace. Listen to music and enjoy.

Yep -
I am pretty much a denier, until I can see that there is a problem.
Sometimes it is apparent that there is a problem, with no music but with the system turned up.
However if I cannot hear a problem, then it is hard to believe that it is there with certainty.

But I also think that maybe my equipment is more immune, or I’ve just been more lucky.

 

[Kingrex]

I have done an A/B with one of my all copper panels compared to a normal loadcenter and the difference was massive. So I always use all copper in the power.
I also very much like the way a Torus transformer filters. I always use one of those.
I always Caig Deoxit every connection in my panels and the electrical path to the audio rack.
I also Caig Deoxit every connection with my equipment.
I have heard different equipment impact noise. I believe a lot of noise comes into the system through the air. RF. I have seen a good report/thread on Audionirvana where a member used carbon and some other RF shielding to wrap his equipment and some cabling. I have never tried it, but I believe a faraday shield would probably help.
Steve uses Schnerzinger. I would assume a RF canceling device may benefit a system. Never heard or tried it.
I do have a quality switch on my digital. But, I can not hear any difference with files stored on my server and my ethernet cable plugged in or not. So I don't know what I can say about noise coming through the internet.
I can hear platforms and footers under my equipment. That is a noise.

 

[treitz3]

Ok - prove it.
It is like the ravings of an asylum without some evidence that it exists.

If it is ethernet signals, then are they on the wires, or in the ether?
There are specific rates for eithernet, we should be able to see those as rate lines with an FFT.

Without something like that, is has more of a smell (stink) of salesmanship, and FOMO in terms of something that may or may not exist.

More of these “tweak things” are spruicked in similar ways.

Ugh. The conversation hasn't even really taken off and you introduce this?

I'm not a salesman, nor is he. Yet I am saying the very same thing that....Idgit! (me)

Never mind. You don't know what you don't know, until you don't hear it. If you don't get this, then simply sit back and learn from the discussion that should honestly happen, without your negativity. It's not up us to prove anything. It's simply an honest discussion that you are seemingly thwarting.

Tom

 

[treitz3]

So, let me clarify a bit on the noise I am talking about. It's a combination of noise floor, room minimum dB level, RFI, EMI, leakage current, jitter, Allan deviation, reflections within the room, timing variances within the 1's and 0's (whether it be immediate, misread, short or long), along with noise that rides the incoming A/C waveform, or if you stream? Through the incoming cable.

This noise is not the same as vinyl surface noise or tube noise, although you want to try and keep those as low as possible as well.

I used to listen to my CDP and think that there was no noise. This was with a Marantz SA-7S1 reference player. Two years ago, as I really got into improving every aspect of my streaming rig, I started to slowly discover that streaming started sounding cleaner than physical music. WHAT?

So, I started looking into why this would be....as I never had any issues with CD's before. Especially with the Marantz. I learned a lot about the "noises", how they manifested themself, where they came from, what gear I could use or utilize to get rid of it and what caused what, what affected what and how to eliminate as much of this noise as possible.

I wouldn't have....or probably wouldn't have ever known any of this for years to come, had it not been for a cheap, $14 ethernet cable upgrade. That lead to me learning about what E cables did. Then there was the Muon Pro.

Geez, I hated that thing for the first week or two...but after that, my audio journey really took off. That lead to me upgrading my clock, which lead to me upgrading my CDP to a transport and dedicated DAC.

Had it not been for my streaming journey taking off like it did, I would still be happily listening to that same noise I have listened to all my life. That transport was the last piece of gear I bought. Since then, every new addition to the rig has been nothing but things that help the rig eliminate any and every type of noise.

From the Purons, to shielded (double and triple shielded) cables, to the Snubway and MC....every purchase since then attacks noise. Literally no more of the gear merry go 'round. Doing that really exposed what the gear I already had.....well, what it actually could do.

I would like to think I have a pretty decent system in the whole grand scheme of things. Not that it's a competition or anything....I know full well that there are many systems out there that make my system look like a blue light K-mart special. That's all fine and dandy, to each their own. But with that said, I haven't heard a system....any system do so many things so well, across all frequencies and volume levels, with so many genres of music so cleanly, effortlessly and with such blackness in-between the images. All this with no boundaries within the room, other than height. In other words, I have yet to hear a sound come from directly above my head or beneath my listening chair.

I don't think it's the gear that does this. I think it's because of the loss of noise.

A question was raised elsewhere that got me thinking tonight. The question was two parts. How do you know when you are done? That was one part. The other part was, are you an audiophile or a music lover?

I think my answer to that is this. Now that the noise is gone? I may now be done being an audiophile because all I hear now is the music. That's all I hear now....and it's radiantly shining a small slice of audio heaven on Earth for me.

I cannot emphasize enough to all of you (even if you think you have no noise) to thwart any hint of noise from distracting you from what is possible.

Tom

 

[Kingrex]

So, let me clarify a bit on the noise I am talking about. It's a combination of noise floor, room minimum dB level, RFI, EMI, leakage current, jitter, Allan deviation, reflections within the room, timing variances within the 1's and 0's (whether it be immediate, misread, short or long), along with noise that rides the incoming A/C waveform, or if you stream? Through the incoming cable.

This noise is not the same as vinyl surface noise or tube noise, although you want to try and keep those as low as possible as well.

I used to listen to my CDP and think that there was no noise. This was with a Marantz SA-7S1 reference player. Two years ago, as I really got into improving every aspect of my streaming rig, I started to slowly discover that streaming started sounding cleaner than physical music. WHAT?

So, I started looking into why this would be....as I never had any issues with CD's before. Especially with the Marantz. I learned a lot about the "noises", how they manifested themself, where they came from, what gear I could use or utilize to get rid of it and what caused what, what affected what and how to eliminate as much of this noise as possible.

I wouldn't have....or probably wouldn't have ever known any of this for years to come, had it not been for a cheap, $14 ethernet cable upgrade. That lead to me learning about what E cables did. Then there was the Muon Pro.

Geez, I hated that thing for the first week or two...but after that, my audio journey really took off. That lead to me upgrading my clock, which lead to me upgrading my CDP to a transport and dedicated DAC.

Had it not been for my streaming journey taking off like it did, I would still be happily listening to that same noise I have listened to all my life. That transport was the last piece of gear I bought. Since then, every new addition to the rig has been nothing but things that help the rig eliminate any and every type of noise.

From the Purons, to shielded (double and triple shielded) cables, to the Snubway and MC....every purchase since then attacks noise. Literally no more of the gear merry go 'round. Doing that really exposed what the gear I already had.....well, what it actually could do.

I would like to think I have a pretty decent system in the whole grand scheme of things. Not that it's a competition or anything....I know full well that there are many systems out there that make my system look like a blue light K-mart special. That's all fine and dandy, to each their own. But with that said, I haven't heard a system....any system do so many things so well, across all frequencies and volume levels, with so many genres of music so cleanly, effortlessly and with such blackness in-between the images. All this with no boundaries within the room, other than height. In other words, I have yet to hear a sound come from directly above my head or beneath my listening chair.

I don't think it's the gear that does this. I think it's because of the loss of noise.

A question was raised elsewhere that got me thinking tonight. The question was two parts. How do you know when you are done? That was one part. The other part was, are you an audiophile or a music lover?

I think my answer to that is this. Now that the noise is gone? I may now be done being an audiophile because all I hear now is the music. That's all I hear now....and it's radiantly shining a small slice of audio heaven on Earth for me.

I cannot emphasize enough to all of you (even if you think you have no noise) to thwart any hint of noise from distracting you from what is possible.

Tom

It sounds like your focused on digital noise. Not noise in general. Like I noted. Having a ethernet cable plugged in or disconnected has no bearing on the sound from my tape, vinyl or digital stores on my server.
My streaming is my lowest quality source. My tape absolutely destroys my streaming and digitally stores files.

There are many threads on digital noise and how to remove it.

Is the thread about general noise or digital streaming noise?