Objectivism explained...

[Phelonious Ponk]

Tim,

I know about this site for long. I appreciate their technical skills and organization, but their beliefs are clearly stated at:

http://nwavguy.blogspot.pt/2012/04/what-we-hear.html

and links referred in it. Not my cup of tea.

IMHO, they are not objectivists, I would call them measurativists.
But their real target seems the Benchmark and headphone listening, nothing else. Quoted from the page you refer:

BLIND EVIDENCE: So far I’ve run two relatively informal blind tests with the ODAC. The latest one used special software on the PC to play the same track on both my Benchmark DAC1 Pre and simultaneously on the ODAC plugged into the same PC (both connected via USB and running at 24/44). The ODAC was connected to an O2 headphone amp, and a switchbox allowed the headphones to be rapidly switched between the DAC1 and the O2+ODAC. The two sources were carefully level matched (using their respective volume controls) using a test signal and wideband DMM. I tried both my Sennheiser HD650 and Denon AH-D2000 headphones with a variety of well recorded favorite tracks. One other listener and I could not reliably tell which was playing.

IMHO, not enough for a true objectivist.
BTW, are you going to sell your Benchmark soon?

Yeah, I read that and my initial reaction wasn't all that different from yours. It read like he got a negative review from someone and his response was "but it measures, this, but it reads that, but but but..."

But having logged a lot of time in the online headphone audiophile community, I also understood where he was coming from. The conventional wisdom there is that a small inexpensive, battery-powered headphone amp could not possibly drive HD650s properly. Someone from that world, testing such an amp with those phones could have a pretty deeply ingrained expectation bias. I wouldn't trust it sighted, and NWAV Guy has tested it, admittedly informally, unsighted, with the HD650s and against the headphone section of the Benchmark, which is highly respected.

So...in spite of the fact that I don't think his response was as measured as it should have been, I think he's probably right. I certainly trust his testing methods more than a simple, sighted listening session. And I know from reading his blog that he's not just a measurements guy. Hes a music lover. A sound lover. A listener. What he hears happens to be supported by the measurements most of the time. I can relate to that as well, because it's where I live.

I don't own a Benchmark, so I don't have one to sell. My enthusiasm for that product is based on its design philosophy, its measurements, the quality of the reviewers who have praised it and what they have praised it for, and, last but not least, having had one in my home on loan for a couple of weeks, running it through its paces and comparing it to a few other dacs. That's been a couple of years ago. I found no need to purchase one, but that's another story.

Tim

 

[jkeny]

BTW, Tim, the DAC based on ES9023 can easily directly drive Senn HD650, no amp required. Does it measure perfectly, hardly. Is it audibly worse than a Benchmark? Don't know I don't have a Benchmark!

 

[Phelonious Ponk]

You are surmising!

Yes, I am.

I can tell you that with a PCM5102 DAC chip has two switchable digital filters - a pre-ringing linear phase filter & a minimum phase filter with no pre-ringing. The difference in sound between the two is obvious. Is it due to the pre-ringing? I'm surmising but I have experimental evidence - which one is more likely to be correct?

Care to share your methodology and results?

Really, care to elucidate?

You first.

I agree, if things sound so close to one another then bias/placebo is probably very likely

It's all about stuff that sounds "so close," though it's very often about stuff that people swear is not even close, is obvious, is night and day until they close their eyes. It happens over and over again. And we can sweat the tiny details of AB/X methodology and find a million reasons to nibble away at it until we don't have to believe our ears and can go back to believing our myths, but close your eyes again, find the courage, and it will happen again. That big difference will become vanishingly small. No one is arguing over whether or not the difference between vinyl and digital is audible. It's obvious. The difference between a tweaked digital interface with a battery power pack and the original, unmodified model? That's worth blind testing.

Tim

 

[Ethan Winer]

Ethan, if I thought for a moment that you are open to learning I would gladly put in the time into it

So I'll take that as a No?

Again you duck the scientific information that Jneutron gives you here to show how power cords can make a difference.

Jneutron provided no evidence that one competent power cord can change the output of an amplifier or whatever when compared to another power cord. These are the main two problems with so many of these threads:

1) Someone quotes someone else making a point (which is often logically flawed) rather than just answer the question, or they'll link to a for-pay article 40 pages long on the AES site, or mention a magazine article that's not online, then say "Read this and you'll understand."

2) As often occurs with claims by power "conditioner" vendors, they show noise riding on the power line before and after their filter product, but not the change at the output of the connected equipment, which of course is what really matters.

This is your chance to have a fair debate without being able to claim I'm ducking anything. I promise I won't. I never do.

--Ethan

 

[Phelonious Ponk]

I for one would love to read it.

Tim

 

[jkeny]

Care to share your methodology and results?

Switching between filters is a simple switching of one pin to high or low. Blind testing revealed that minimum phase filter (no pre-ringing) sounded much better than Linear filter(pre-ringing). Further blind tests showed litlle difference between ES9023 DAC & PCM5102 with Linear, pre-ringing filter.[/quote]

You first.

Great but I can spell my name in the snow - of course my name is a lot shorter than yours

It's all about stuff that sounds "so close," though it's very often about stuff that people swear is not even close, is obvious, is night and day until they close their eyes. It happens over and over again. And we can sweat the tiny details of AB/X methodology and find a million reasons to nibble away at it until we don't have to believe our ears and can go back to believing our myths, but close your eyes again, find the courage, and it will happen again. That big difference will become vanishingly small. No one is arguing over whether or not the difference between vinyl and digital is audible. It's obvious.

I've never had a night & day difference disappear in blind listening, sorry!

The difference between a tweaked digital interface with a battery power pack and the original, unmodified model? That's worth blind testing.

Tim

Are you trying to make a veiled or direct reference to my devices, perchance?

 

[jkeny]

Jneutron provided no evidence that one competent power cord can change the output of an amplifier or whatever when compared to another power cord. These are the main two problems with so many of these threads:
.......
--Ethan

I was waiting for this word I highlighted "competent" to crop up - it's the perfect get-out clause. So give us your definition of what competent means!!

 

[Phelonious Ponk]

I was waiting for this word I highlighted "competent" to crop up - it's the perfect get-out clause. So give us your definition of what competent means!!

It's not a get-out clause if you've followed these kinds of debates. Loose translation -- the one supplied by the manufacturer and not subsequently broken.

Tim

 

[jkeny]

It's not a get-out clause if you've followed these kinds of debates. Loose translation -- the one supplied by the manufacturer and not subsequently broken.

Tim

I believe I asked Ethan for his definition & I would appreciate something more than what you have provided - we do want a discussion, don't we? Not malleable, indistinct definitions that can later be interpreted to mean whatever we want them to mean! So let's hear what the definition of a competent cable is?

This was Ethan's final last word to Jneutron's perfect explanation of the differences that can occur between real-world power cords. Have you read the post I linked to Tim or are you interested?

 

[rbbert]

I for one would be interested in seeing any measurable difference (whether someone thinks it's audible or not) in an amplifier's output using different power cords. Noise, FFT, square wave reproduction, whatever.

 

[jkeny]

I for one would be interested in seeing any measurable difference (whether someone thinks it's audible or not) in an amplifier's output using different power cords. Noise, FFT, square wave reproduction, whatever.

Why not have a read of the 3 bad things power cords can do in that link. Do these things make sense to you & his suggestions for overcoming the problems? Measuring the before/after is another issue - JNeutron definitively states that he can hear these changes.

BTW, not appealing to authority here but if you are talking about "It is indeed rare and therefore something to be valued to have such an opportunity in an on-line A/V forum" this guy is a very serious scientist - he's in the field of superconductivity & works with these sorts of issues on a daily basis, I believe.

Just my 2 cents - grounding is the biggest forgotten/neglected issue in audio!

 

[rbbert]

Why not have a read of the 3 bad things power cords can do in that link. Do these things make sense to you & his suggestions for overcoming the problems? Measuring the before/after is another issue - JNeutron definitively states that he can hear these changes.

BTW, not appealing to authority here but if you are talking about "It is indeed rare and therefore something to be valued to have such an opportunity in an on-line A/V forum" this guy is a very serious scientist - he's in the field of superconductivity & works with these sorts of issues on a daily basis, I believe.

Just my 2 cents - grounding is the biggest forgotten/neglected issue in audio!

If he is as prominent as you say, wouldn't you think he should be able to find some measurements which differ? His scientific qualifications don't apply to his hearing ability or auditory discrimination faculties. To the day he died Linus Pauling was convinced Vitamin C could cure or ameliorate any number of medical conditions (to date, none of those claims have stood up to scientific scrutiny).

 

[jkeny]

If he is as prominent as you say, wouldn't you think he should be able to find some measurements which differ? His scientific qualifications don't apply to his hearing ability or auditory discrimination faculties. ...

I wasn't talking about his auditory abilities - I take it therefore that you didn't read his technical explanation & have no comments on this?

 

[rbbert]

I wasn't talking about his auditory abilities - I take it therefore that you didn't read his technical explanation & have no comments on this?

What's to comment? He has some ideas; why not put them to the test? I tend to believe that power cords can make a difference (at least judging by the amount of money I've spent on both them and power conditioners), but this is an area where measurements could clearly provide some guidance, and I don't see any that matter. And look at your post again; you clearly reference his auditory abilities.

 

[jkeny]

What's to comment? He has some ideas; why not put them to the test? I tend to believe that power cords can make a difference (at least judging by the amount of money I've spent on both them and power conditioners), but this is an area where measurements could clearly provide some guidance, and I don't see any that matter. And look at your post again; you clearly reference his auditory abilities.

Sorry, he has some ideas - that's your evaluation?
You believe that power cords make a difference or you have heard power cords making a difference? Can you say which?
You are looking for guidance? For what exactly?
I didn't reference his auditory abilities - why would I quote his scientific accomplishments as evidence of his hearing? This is getting frustrating.

If nobody has anything of worth to say except "show me the measurements" or "produce a file that proves it", I'm not wasting my time. I assumed we could have a more informed discussion than Head-fi?

 

[Ron Party]

Is one man's informed another's ill-informed? Are we a priori rejecting a methodology?

 

[fas42]

Help, what a hopeless bunfight ...!!

Frank

 

[treitz3]

What's to comment? He has some ideas; why not put them to the test? I tend to believe that power cords can make a difference (at least judging by the amount of money I've spent on both them and power conditioners), but this is an area where measurements could clearly provide some guidance, and I don't see any that matter.

Hello, rbbert. Perhaps this link will help.

http://www.polkaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?88538-PS-Audio-PerfectWave-AC-12-Power-Cord

Tom

 

[JackD201]

Some trivia

Ayn Rand settled on the name Objectivism because Existentialism was already taken

My take on it? There's bull **** both ways. There's a new breed of BS artists out there using shoddy methodology painting themselves as objectivists simply because it caters to a segment that looks for that kind of rationalization for their purchases. It's easy to separate the real scientists from the pseudo-scientists. You can even just jump to the conclusions of their papers. The pseudo-scientist will make definitive statements with dodgy unstandardized, qualifiers. The real scientist will always clearly preface the conditions in which the conclusions were made IOW "it is true under these conditions" but leaves the door open for other conditions.

Real objectivists have humility.

 

[jkeny]

Is one man's informed another's ill-informed? Are we a priori rejecting a methodology?

Ron, rbbert, I know it would be great to produce measurements & correlate everything we hear back to measurements but this is not where measurements are, at this point in time. By evaluating the theory we can often direct our measurements to where we think the issues can be revealed. In the meantime we can trust our ears & if these things are not obvious differences & don't stand up to blind testing then we can discard them. Prematurely discarding the theory due to lack of a validated measurement would seem to be illogical & simplistic.