I had Gale and Todd from Omaha fly here to Atlanta to install dual Rel 25s for my then Rockport Cygnus set up. They spent 2 days doing it. I loved it for 5 years. The subs are gone now and in important ways the system is better. I have used subwoofers in various setups for 20+ years. With and without analog crossover. With and without high pass filter. I got incredibly flat measured response to 20hz. Once you go all out on component isolation you willl become very sensitive to the nuances of everything which in my opinion is obscured by the use of subwoofers. What you like however will guide your choices and so no “assurances” can be given on the subject if you are using full range speakers. 2years ago I spent a good 30 minutes talking to Josh about this very subject. We went into everything including the advantages of not having to co locate the the sub bass and the mid band so that you could optimize each location. At that time I was arguing for the use of subs. He was unequivocal. Don’t do it. It mirrored a conversation I had with Andy 5 years prior. I finally listened. John will definitely help guide you as his customer if he hears that you want to employ subs. He’s a great guy. When I told the guys in Omaha they gave me a high five. There is no actual correct answer here. Everyone is free to pursue what they love but there is also no free lunch. You get this but you lose that. Which do you like better?
Thank you for a very timely topic.
Recently, a friend visited from South America. He was touring locations in the US to help inform his purchase of a new set of speakers.
My system shares several similar components (or soon the be upgraded components) with his system including the totaldac sublime DAC, Taiko Extreme server, and the L10 pre and M10 amplifier from CH Precision.
After listening to a number of his test tracks, he stopped and remarked how beautiful the system sounded in the midrange and upper end, but he felt that it lacked adequate bass below the mid-bass level. And he recommended adding subs.
i thanked him sincerely for his opinion and remarked how recent system improvements, including the additions of the sublime upgrade and the new taiko switch and network card had significantly improved bass in my system, even as it is.
But not being a bass head, I was genuinely pleased with my system’s performance. And explained how I had previously engaged with Stirling Trayle (system setup extraordinaire) on a discussion of subs for the Lyras.
Stirling tried to integrate a previous version of my system with VAC 450 amps with Rel G1s, but he didn’t feel comfortable with the results based on some electronic incompatibilities with the VACs. So the process was abandoned and I ended up selling the G1’s.
Sterling did stress that getting the lowest bass range would require subs that were compatible with the speed and finesse of the Lyras. But also emphasized that it would require a lot of effort and money to extract the lower bass without losing the transformative character of what the Lyras could do on their own - an observation in line with your report.
Nevertheless, my friend recommended to at least look at increasing the M10 amplifier feedback from the original 0% that Sterling set based on my then system configuration, to a starting point of 5% - the value he was using in his system.
But since the feedback change would take time before it settled, we ended the session and he left back to South America the next day without any additional listening.
Several days after the amplifier feedback change began to settle, the bass was remarkably tighter and dynamic, but it was a bit much. I lowered the feedback to 4% and the system improved significantly overall with a tighter, tuneful and dynamic bass than the initial 0% feedback.
At this point, I’m really enjoying the new sound thanks to my friend’s advice.
But I’m more of a “set it and leave it” kind of guy - preferring to leave the trail-error optimizing to experts like Stirling, and spending my time enjoying the music instead.
So for now, I’ll wait for the additional Taiko improvements (router, DC distributor, and battery power supply) to arrive later this summer, before inviting Stirling to come back to reoptimize the positioning and settings of my system - resting assuredly in the knowledge of the recommendations you mentioned from the Rockport and Omaha gents on the purity of the Lyras sans subs - at least for the near future until Stirling finds his way back.
