Pacific dac: Lampizator's new top of the line dac

[Alrainbow]

As a rule but not always a preamp vol pot has a sweet spot
From 11/2 of bottom is 6
Now a Digital vol pot with numbers I can say
This means it has its best linear qualities in this range. Now tubes have there own gain so as this varies a vol on the LAMPI makes this handy
In addition some tubes like the 242 is 6 dB above most others so very much needed
Using both allows for a smoother dynamic range and less noise floor where each device is in there comfort zone.
So this is Paramount.
Next is the digital output of the player we use.
It is trudiionallly at max. This is a fundamental mistake. But there is so much conjecture on forums that I get bashed for even commenting on it. If your player has a digital vol use it.
Cut 15db as a start. Play music and note to keep LAMPI vol set to keep pre in its sweet spot.
MP3 is much louder due to its massive compression so it needs this or more
Play piano note intense key strikes this should be an explosion of impact on a percussive sound
It should not ring or Become a sound thst is not normal. Don't blame recordings as many do. There is not many bad cds there is bad compression
My point is if you over drive the digital input it's clipping. Any dac I have tried does this they vary but do. Also usb is the most sensitive to it
Where spidif any way or even network is less effective. Now before the masses jump at me
Think first I have taken the Time to many times over prove this. Also the theory of loosing bits is true but not st 18 to 15 dB reduction Much less at 24 bit depth. Try and post don't bash and not try Lastly level match your findings louder is always better lol.

 

[wil]

Thanks much, Al. A lot to chew on!

For clarification, by you're saying:

"Next is the digital output of the player we use.
It is traditionally at max. This is a fundamental mistake."

I assume "max" is referring to "0" attenuation which is where the Lampi would typically be set for total bypass to pre amp?

"My point is if you over drive the digital input it's clipping."

So, you're saying that by using Vol control without a pre-amp we are over-driving Vol control?

Looking forward to experimenting!

 

[wisnon]

No...he is saying that if the player software , ie Roon/Jriver, etc is set to max...you are overdriving the dac chip or ladder array and will likely decrease best SQ possible. Set JRiver vol slider to say 65% and then use preamp to achieve desired system volume. If the lampi has VC...dont put that to max either. Set to at least 10db attenustion. -15 to 25db may even be better. U gotta experiment to find ideal levels.

 

[Alrainbow]

Winson is getting most of it. Please excuse my grammar i wish it was clearer Hated English orb haunts me till this day lol.
Anyway there is a few parts in this
Lets assume you have a dac with a vol control
This can be at max but In this order
The pre should Always be in its sweet spot
So set from 11/2 on the dial
Now a place to start on digital Vol from player as Norman says is 65 % this is about 15db
This is about where most loud tracks need to be to stop digital clipping. Use a piano it's obvious when it's gone. Now not all key strikes show this but on loud ones it rings
A good album is Jessica Williams live st YOSSI's
Vol 1. TUTU S PROMISE
This track has all you need to show you.
Use the LAMPI vol to set sweet spot on your pre amp
Now what gets better
With the pre in its sweet spot
Dynamics are linear
Noise floor drops
Low level details increase Sounds are more detailed and musical

Digital vol being lower allows the above and an increase in details so there is no over loading on the dac input
When you remove the ring there is music
Play the album and track and this is nkt just piano it's all parts.
Female or male vocals
Cymbals
It's not drums or bass
Try this and see why in my view a Lampi dac is a top tier sound at a tier below price

 

[wil]

Here's a brief synopsis of what I'm understanding. Does this sound like a good starting plan?

Start with the Pre’s expected sweet spot which is usually between 11and 2 o’clock (if the knob is a clock face).
The MZ3 Preamp's stepped attenuator has 100 steps.
So, this would translate to “42” to “67” on the digital readout?

Then attenuate with:

1. The Lampi Vol Control (by typically 10 to 25 db down).
2. The Software Vol level (in my case Roon) to 35% to start.

Experiment with these 3 variables (Lampi level and Roon level and Pre level), but keeping the Pre level in the sweet spot range. The Roon level reduction should be relatively minimal so as not to impact sound quality (losing bits)?

A good test if the balance is good: strong percussive piano strikes ( the timbre should be natural and with no ringing).

 

[wisnon]

Start with roon at 50%..

 

[Legolas]

Here's a brief synopsis of what I'm understanding. Does this sound like a good starting plan?

Start with the Pre’s expected sweet spot which is usually between 11and 2 o’clock (if the knob is a clock face).
The MZ3 Preamp's stepped attenuator has 100 steps.
So, this would translate to “42” to “67” on the digital readout?

Then attenuate with:

1. The Lampi Vol Control (by typically 10 to 25 db down).
2. The Software Vol level (in my case Roon) to 35% to start.

Experiment with these 3 variables (Lampi level and Roon level and Pre level), but keeping the Pre level in the sweet spot range. The Roon level reduction should be relatively minimal so as not to impact sound quality (losing bits)?

A good test if the balance is good: strong percussive piano strikes ( the timbre should be natural and with no ringing).

I would avoid Roon volume. It is using DSP and will wreck the sound. Best leave it at 0db so defeated. Then use the other pots you have. A question, isn't it better to use a defeat on the Lampi volume? Is flat out on the pot defeat? I.e. take the pot out of the circuit.

 

[Alrainbow]

I would avoid Roon volume. It is using DSP and will wreck the sound. Best leave it at 0db so defeated. Then use the other pots you have. A question, isn't it better to use a defeat on the Lampi volume? Is flat out on the pot defeat? I.e. take the pot out of the circuit.

The digital player vol needs to be used to stop it or lower digital clipping.
Reg a start point
Digital player vol is at 100 % so when you play you can hear it. Then lower the volume till it stops.
Keep in mind you may not hear it at first for a few reasons
One if your system is dark it's much harder to hear it
Two we all have been accustomed to the clip sound
So better to start at 100% output
Adjust dac vol to keep pre in sweet spot
Then start the digital vol cut back.
Now use any kind of dB meter to level match to keep this honest as louder is Always better.
Reg dsp I get it but for the purpose of making things better lets do this as we can.
I used Roon into hq and vol was controlled in hq
I also now use j river and it's vol control.
We all including me have been taught to not use any form of digital vol control. But when you hear how much better the sound can be I now feel this is a far better.
Lets try and post me a few others whom have tried this can reply

 

[abeidrov]

Roon has a clipping indicator. It's my understanding, that it only works, when both DSP and Headroom management functions are enabled. I wonder, if it's possible to use it to determine if clipping is present. Will try it tonight.

 

[Alrainbow]

Roon has a clipping indicator. It's my understanding, that it only works, when both DSP and Headroom management functions are enabled. I wonder, if it's possible to use it to determine if clipping is present. Will try it tonight.

No idea much less if it's indicator is what we need.
What I can say is this is not a LAMPI thing every dac I have tried does this. I think the stigma of digital vol control exceeds using it to make it better.
If we used software to see bit depth drop off it becomes obvious the bits don't matter until below
60 % decrease
Also a MP3 file has much less compression hence it's louder and needs more vol cut.
Once we try this and hear it it's then obvious after this. Now in part usb seems more affected then spidif or network inputs too.

 

[wisnon]

I would avoid Roon volume. It is using DSP and will wreck the sound. Best leave it at 0db so defeated. Then use the other pots you have. A question, isn't it better to use a defeat on the Lampi volume? Is flat out on the pot defeat? I.e. take the pot out of the circuit.

Most Lampi Dacs DONT have a VC. Its a paid option. 0DB is a bypass.

 

[wil]

I've looked at Roon's Vol control options (for the first time).
The options are DSP volume, Fixed Volume and Device Volume.

Question 1: To manipulate Roons vol control down with the intent to reduce digital clipping: Is that in "DSP Volume"?

And if I were to go the traditional route of bypassing digital vol, I would use either "Device Vol" (which passes on all vol control to the Lampi's vol control) or

"Fixed Vol" which also passes vol control to your dac or pre amp.

Question 2: If I were to bypass all Room vol control influence and use only the Preamp or Pre and Lampi vol control together, which Room setting would I use: Device or Fixed?

 

[Legolas]

Device I would say. But I think fixed and 0db does the same thing. I guess Device is if a DAC could talk to Roon and be controlled by it. though I have never come across a DAC that does that.

 

[Zero000]

I use Peace GUI which has a digital clipping indicator.

I use TIDAL's volume control to prevent excessive clipping as per the indicator, then correct for volume at the listening seat using my preamp.

I also apply EQ where required since THERE ARE NO STANDARDs for it. Some music has obviously either been mixed using speakers with questionable frequency response, deaf engineers, or deliberately hyped to get a sound etc etc.

The PEACE GUI and Equaliser APO are free and seriously good yet no one has tagged onto it around here. I've been using it for a long time now.

I'm a s/w engineer. The PEACE GUI doesn't look fantastic but it is functional. In other words, it's good.

The trouble is when you do the above you will realise how bad the situation really is.

 

[Legolas]

Don't you find there is a loss of soundstage and micro detail using ANY DSP? I have tried many plugins on a Mac, and currently use the LCD4 Room DSP preset. But on speakers I let it go through intact. To me, there is a loss to the sonics that negate any positives.

On level control, IMO that is best done in the analogue domain I found, unless it is very well designed 64 bit control. And even then, I can hear a loss. Sorry to sound negative about digital level control, but to me it is a sludge hammer to the problem.

Why the need to level control anyway? Most decent recordings are not clipping into 0db anyway? So unless you add a lot of FR changes in DSP you should be good to avoid the level facility.

 

[Alrainbow]

I use Peace GUI which has a digital clipping indicator.

I use TIDAL's volume control to prevent excessive clipping as per the indicator, then correct for volume at the listening seat using my preamp.

I also apply EQ where required since THERE ARE NO STANDARDs for it. Some music has obviously either been mixed using speakers with questionable frequency response, deaf engineers, or deliberately hyped to get a sound etc etc.

The PEACE GUI and Equaliser APO are free and seriously good yet no one has tagged onto it around here. I've been using it for a long time now.

I'm a s/w engineer. The PEACE GUI doesn't look fantastic but it is functional. In other words, it's good.

The trouble is when you do the above you will realise how bad the situation really is.

See your the first to even post anyone uses it
I get bashed for even saying it

 

[Legolas]

See your the first to even post anyone uses it
I get bashed for even saying it

I am still unclear why you are getting clipping. Normal recordings of CD or downloads not messed with should not have any sample above 0db. It is standard fair for any studio, like wearing a seatbelt. If you need to lower the output from your DAC to your pre-amp as it is overloading it, that is a different issue and gain levels are not matched. Digital volume is a crude way to do this IMO.

 

[Alrainbow]

This is not about matching the pre amp input
It's about digital clipping and it's from downloads and cd Rips from me.
This is with a few players too
J river
Roon
Hq
Roon to hq
Roon to bridge or j river
MP3 Are louder then most so need more dB cut It's not a Lampi thing either I have a few dacs and multiple Lampi dacs they all do this.
I feel we all here it but don't know it's there.
Some here say there is a loss of dynamics or staging for me it's not
It's a big Gain in dynamics and better ambience or presence.
Some claim they loose but my outlook is there not level matching results as louder is better.
When you do as I say it gives a much better sound and has more low level details and jump from low to high sounds.
I'll post a track to download it's pcm 16/44.1
I own it.
This way I can show all and we can all hear the same

 

[Legolas]

Mp3s being louder is most likely the dynamic range has been compressed to give a perceived increase in detail. The upper limit of 0db should not be reached in any case.

To do so is a break away form the hard rules any decent recording studio has to adhere to. And if it is clipping, going beyond 0db, reducing the levels will not 'fill in' the data. If you open up the file in sound software, and view the wave form, you will see the louder elements going above 0db are sliced off, so flat, no extra data is there to 'complete' the detail. So reducing levels in Room or whatever will not repair the missing or truncated data.

Pop music is often compressed in dynamic range anyway, regardless of bit rate or file format. But it should NOT go above 0db.

So what I am saying is, you shouldn't need to cap the levels on your DAC no matter which format or file types you are playing. Just reduce the volume on your pre-amp.

On digital volume capping, I need to be convinced there is no loss, I can hear it in all the software I have used to date.

I remember s big backlash when Metallica recorded Death Metallic, as it had obvious digital clipping and sounded hideous. Apparently the mixing engineer has a big argument with the band, and refused to do it, but they threatened to walk out. So he did it anyway. You can't get any louder than 0db on a digital file. The only way to increase perceived loudness is compass the dynamic range. so the mid level sound comes up to nearer the high level sounds.

On your Lampi DAC, if you do hear a better most balanced sound by reducing levels, I would say that you are overloading your pre-amp input. This is nothing to do with clipping in the data file, and is probably an issue with your DAC, not a universal issue. Maybe try different tubes to reduce the output?

 

[Alrainbow]

Ok last time it's not the preamp and it's nothing to do with Lampi it's any dac I tried several in my setup.
So let's do this
Does anyone agree a MP3 file they downloaded Sound louder then the same song on red book or higher res ?
Has anyone tried the song I have as a group effort to use ?
Has anyone with out prejudice tried j river not Roon or anyone else's player and lower the vol to 70% as asked ?
if not it's all the usual conjecture of I know or I read or my meter says this.
This is about what we hear not a scale to be measured. Once you do hear it and I have faith some will then let me know why. The why is why I ask not if it exists. I know it is real.
If your not willing to make this be an honest experiment it's fine but enough of how it's done or must be or can't be.