Paul McGowan/PS Audio DSD is all about FOMO

[psaudio]

Thanks Andre and you're absolutely correct. BTW, the new Sabre DAC set as well as TI's new entry both have DSD capabilities built into the chips. They also handle volume control in both DSD and PCM. The Wolfson chipset we use in the PerfectWave DAC series does as well but no volume control.

I would also point out that most modern DAC chipsets are DSD capable but few (if any) actually handle the complex noise shaping tasks as true 1-bit DSD DACS, instead they use a form of quasi-multi bit.

Lastly I would point out that pretty much all modern DACs (PCM Based) are Sigma Delta based architecture (similar to DSD) but few are true 1-bits from in to out. The few exceptions to this Sigma Delta architecture would be the DCS Ring DAC and the MSB modified ladder DAC approach.

 

[edorr]

Just give Berkelely time. They caved on USB, they will cave on DSD.

Won't happen. Considering what they published about DSD / PCM they would look like complete idiots.

 

[microstrip]

(...) John Atkinson, who I trust, and is very level headed said the Marantz NA-11S1 and Auriic Vega
got him within 5% of the dcS and MSB stacks. (...)

Andre,

Are you reporting on the DACs used to play DSD exclusively? As people say, these 5% are just the difference most of us are just dreaming about. Can you point me where he compared the DCS and Auralic? Thanks.

 

[garylkoh]

Thanks Andre and you're absolutely correct. BTW, the new Sabre DAC set as well as TI's new entry both have DSD capabilities built into the chips. They also handle volume control in both DSD and PCM. The Wolfson chipset we use in the PerfectWave DAC series does as well but no volume control.

I would also point out that most modern DAC chipsets are DSD capable but few (if any) actually handle the complex noise shaping tasks as true 1-bit DSD DACS, instead they use a form of quasi-multi bit.

Lastly I would point out that pretty much all modern DACs (PCM Based) are Sigma Delta based architecture (similar to DSD) but few are true 1-bits from in to out. The few exceptions to this Sigma Delta architecture would be the DCS Ring DAC and the MSB modified ladder DAC approach.

Three great posts and no one welcomed him? What happened to the hospitality of WBF?

A very warm welcome to WBF Paul! This is a great forum as the moderators do try to encourage civil discussion. You'll find a lot of members here who will challenge everything in a humble, civil and intelligent manner.

Thanks for honoring us with your presence.

 

[asiufy]

Paul,

Welcome, and thanks for clarifying your position!
It might as well be, indeed, FOMO. As I wrote, I'm always on the lookout for the best version of the albums I enjoy, so if my DAC didn't have DSD capability, I would surely be wondering if all those SACDs out there (and now DSD downloads) would trump any existing recording I might already have (PCM or even vinyl). And you know, a lot of them DO, like those japanese SHM-SACDs!


alexandre

 

[microstrip]

(...) I would also point out that most modern DAC chipsets are DSD capable but few (if any) actually handle the complex noise shaping tasks as true 1-bit DSD DACS, instead they use a form of quasi-multi bit.

Lastly I would point out that pretty much all modern DACs (PCM Based) are Sigma Delta based architecture (similar to DSD) but few are true 1-bits from in to out. The few exceptions to this Sigma Delta architecture would be the DCS Ring DAC and the MSB modified ladder DAC approach.

Welcome Paul,

Your post raises a question - can the analog output buffer of a DAC be optimized for both true DSD and PCM? Should we have a separate DAC for true 1-bit DSD?

 

[Lee]

Not arguing with that. What I'm saying is that there was almost no software then, and there is almost no software now. It will take years to DSD to get popular (if ever), and in that time, as Microstrip commented - $500 DSD only DAC will sound better than the current $5k ones.

I have the MSB DAC, which is DSD capable, and I'm not sure if I played more than 10 DSD tracks on it (just to see if it works).

Geez, give it time. DSD files downloads have just gotten started. It takes time to master and host the files. There are tons of rock, jazz and classical they could release.

 

[Lee]

Thanks Andre and you're absolutely correct. BTW, the new Sabre DAC set as well as TI's new entry both have DSD capabilities built into the chips. They also handle volume control in both DSD and PCM. The Wolfson chipset we use in the PerfectWave DAC series does as well but no volume control.

I would also point out that most modern DAC chipsets are DSD capable but few (if any) actually handle the complex noise shaping tasks as true 1-bit DSD DACS, instead they use a form of quasi-multi bit.

Lastly I would point out that pretty much all modern DACs (PCM Based) are Sigma Delta based architecture (similar to DSD) but few are true 1-bits from in to out. The few exceptions to this Sigma Delta architecture would be the DCS Ring DAC and the MSB modified ladder DAC approach.

Welcome Paul!

Really enjoyed the PS Audio tour a year ago at 2012 RMAF, sorry I missed seeing you there. Hope you post here often.

Lee

 

[rbbert]

Andre,

Are you reporting on the DACs used to play DSD exclusively? As people say, these 5% are just the difference most of us are just dreaming about. Can you point me where he compared the DCS and Auralic? Thanks.

Not on line yet, it's in the most recent issue

 

[still-one]

Andre,

Are you reporting on the DACs used to play DSD exclusively? As people say, these 5% are just the difference most of us are just dreaming about. Can you point me where he compared the DCS and Auralic? Thanks.

I just received the new Stereophile in the mail today where the Auralic is reviewed and the DCS is mentioned.

 

[Andre Marc]

Andre,

Are you reporting on the DACs used to play DSD exclusively? As people say, these 5% are just the difference most of us are just dreaming about. Can you point me where he compared the DCS and Auralic? Thanks.

No, overall DAC performance..not just on DSD.

On the Marantz/MSB comparison:

"Setting up the NA-11S1 ($3499) and comparing the sound of its analog outputs with the sound of the MSB driven by a coaxial S/PDIF connection, I was astonished by how close the two DACs sounded.
In the long term, the MSB was a little more dynamic, with a better sense of pace. But considering that the MSB costs more than 12 times the Marantz's price, the NA-11S1's sound was too close for the Diamond DAC IV's comfort."

http://www.stereophile.com/content/marantz-reference-na-11s1-network-audio-playerdac-page-2

Auralic/dCS:

Page, 103, Feb. Stereophile:

"For just over 5% of the price of the dCS Vivaldi three-piece DAC, the Vega got remarkably close in sound quality, at least
as far as I could tell without being able to do a direct comparison."

FYI, I remember the quote wrong, he said the Auralic, at 5% of the dCS stack price, gets "remarkably" close. Sorry, about mixing that up!

 

[Andre Marc]

Geez, give it time. DSD files downloads have just gotten started. It takes time to master and host the files. There are tons of rock, jazz and classical they could release.

Lee, you are working under the assumption that there is going to be some mass DSD archiving of everything in the vaults.

 

[edorr]

Lee, you are working under the assumption that there is going to be some mass DSD archiving of everything in the vaults.

Remastering of analog tapes to DSD on a massive scale would give us a wealth of content. I don't see it happening.

 

[Andre Marc]

Remastering of analog tapes to DSD on a massive scale would give us a wealth of content. I don't see it happening.

Not to mention that starting with the 90's, artists were migrated to digital. So you will be starting with a 44.1 or 48 Khz digital master.

 

[microstrip]

Remastering of analog tapes to DSD on a massive scale would give us a wealth of content. I don't see it happening.

Although I do not have statistics or any link to reliable sources, I have read that many of these tapes are now in very poor conditions - in some cases the LPs created from them when they were fresh sound now much better than the old tapes. Many recording companies have transferred them to PCM long ago (sorry! ) and in order to make this transfer the tapes were reconditioned and baked, making this a one time operation. I hope that our experts will report on their experience in this subject.

 

[Andre Marc]

Although I do not have statistics or any link to reliable sources, I have read that many of these tapes are now in very poor conditions - in some cases the LPs created from them when they were fresh sound now much better than the old tapes. Many recording companies have transferred them to PCM long ago (sorry! ) and in order to make this transfer the tapes were reconditioned and baked, making this a one time operation. I hope that our experts will report on their experience in this subject.

As I posted above, the last 25 years most projects have been recorded to digital..upwards of 95%.

Another interesting not is that some of the biggest performers or bands of our time..Arcade Fire, Coldplay, Radiohead, Adele,
etc etc have virtually NEVER recorded to tape

U2 has not touched tape since 1991.

 

[microstrip]

No, overall DAC performance..not just on DSD.

On the Marantz/MSB comparison:

"Setting up the NA-11S1 ($3499) and comparing the sound of its analog outputs with the sound of the MSB driven by a coaxial S/PDIF connection, I was astonished by how close the two DACs sounded. In the long term, the MSB was a little more dynamic, with a better sense of pace. But considering that the MSB costs more than 12 times the Marantz's price, the NA-11S1's sound was too close for the Diamond DAC IV's comfort."

http://www.stereophile.com/content/marantz-reference-na-11s1-network-audio-playerdac-page-2

Auralic/dCS:

Page, 103, Feb. Stereophile:

"For just over 5% of the price of the dCS Vivaldi three-piece DAC, the Vega got remarkably close in sound quality, at least as far as I could tell without being able to do a direct comparison."

FYI, I remember the quote wrong, he said the Auralic, at 5% of the dCS stack price, gets "remarkably" close. Sorry, about mixing that up!

Andre,

Thanks for your time. I will not discuss what means "close", "remarkably close" or even "remarkably different" in terms of high-end digital sources, but the two parts I quoted in bold are enough for me to appreciate now JA statements. When I get the issue I will read it in full. As they say, IMHO and YMMV.

BTW1, I have been playing currently with a Metronome C2A DAC using SPDIF and AES/EBU. Its sound quality depended dramatically (yes! ) on the digital cable and the CD transport. BTW2, I do not own a MSB or a DCS Vivaldi, but would not mind.

 

[mep]

As I posted above, the last 25 years most projects have been recorded to digital..upwards of 95%.

Another interesting not is that some of the biggest performers or bands of our time..Arcade Fire, Coldplay, Radiohead, Adele,
etc etc have virtually NEVER recorded to tape

U2 has not touched tape since 1991.

They might be the biggest bands of your time, but they aren't the biggest band of many people's time including mine. Most of the music I'm most interested in was originally recorded on tape and not digits. Most of today's rock bands aren't in the same league talent wise as those from the 60s and 70s IMO.

 

[Andre Marc]

They might be the biggest bands of your time, but they aren't the biggest band of many people's time including mine. Most of the music I'm most interested in was originally recorded on tape and not digits. Most of today's rock bands aren't in the same league talent wise as those from the 60s and 70s IMO.

And that is why audiophiles like you will be the subject of of a piece I will be writing for the Hgh-Fidelity.com.

You represent the Musically Incurious, thinking time stopped in 1978. Sorry, but the saying "today's rock bands aren't in the same league talent wise" as those from the past is the most "hey you kids get off my lawn" comment I can think of. So sad. For me and millions like me to give up the last 25 years worth, and that includes incredible performers recording today, is simply a NON STARTER.

Think ahead. Look beyond your own nose. I love classic rock, pop, and jazz too. But 18 years olds today have THEIR music...and I dig THEIR music too.

Jake Bugg's two albums give me as much pleasure as the 3000 or so albums I own recorded in the 60s/70s.

An emotional connection to music exists exclusive of era, and format.

Over and Out
The Musically Curious.

 

[Al M.]

And that is why audiophiles like you will be the subject of of a piece I will be writing for the Hgh-Fidelity.com.

You represent the Musically Incurious, thinking time stopped in 1978. Sorry, but the saying "today's rock bands aren't in the same league talent wise" as those from the past is the most "hey you kids get off my lawn" comment I can think of. So sad. For me and millions like me to give up the last 25 years worth, and that includes incredible performers recording today, is simply a NON STARTER.

Think ahead. Look beyond your own nose. I love classic rock, pop, and jazz too. But 18 years olds today have THEIR music...and I dig THEIR music too.

Jake Bugg's two albums give me as much pleasure as the 3000 or so albums I own recorded in the 60s/70s.

An emotional connection to music exists exclusive of era, and format.

Over and Out
The Musically Curious.

Hi Andre,

I agree with you that today there is a lot of good pop and rock music as well. The same can be said about classical music. While for most classical fans music stops after Mahler, or at the latest, after Bartok, I love listening to the new stuff. I have tons of classical avantgarde (and new non-avantgarde classical music), also after 2000, and I write about the music of Stockhausen (1928-2007), who in my view is one the greatest composers that ever lived. Here is my website:

http://home.earthlink.net/~almoritz/stockhausenreviews.htm

(Here is the wiki page:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karlheinz_Stockhausen
By the way, he is on the cover of the Beatles' Sgt. Pepper album because of the influence of his electronic music on them.)

So yeah, call me musically curious. I love listening to the older classical greats too, however, like lately the Beethoven string quartets played by the Emerson quartet.


(And yes, Stockhausen and a lot of classical avantgarde is exclusively available on 16/44. And not surprisingly, Emerson's Beethoven string quartet cycle as well.)