Please help me decide on one of these tables!!

[PeterA]

Please Peter, let me know the disadvantages of future upgradeability, ability to use any tonearm length and more than one as needed vs being locked into an as is package with a know negative being the the tonearm!

david

David, I don't know all the answers, but I will try to answer your question based on my experience. Regarding a table like my SME 30/12, space for a second arm would have three distinct disadvantages: weight, cost, and size. I have spoken to an SME dealer about this, and he told me that there are reasons that SME has never designed a table which can support two arms. That may or may not change with the new owners. Depending on the design, some cantilevered armboards which may offer increased flexibility for arm length, may not be as rigid or solidly mounted on a plinth as a non cantilevered arm board. The second armboard on the back of the TechDAS AF1 comes to mind. Why are the two different? My guess is because of size. I don't know if they sound identical, but I would doubt it. Here are some more: complexity, increased surface area which may be an issue with airborne vibrations, the need for a different, larger, sturdier rack.

I understand that these may all be considered acceptable trade offs for the added flexibility they provide, but that is up to the designer and customer to decide. If there were no disadvantages with increased flexibility and upgradeability, I would think that all turntables would be designed to accommodate four 9-12" arms and be upgradable. They are not. Brinkmann, TW Akustic, and a few others offer multiple arms. VPI, Kronos and a few others are upgradeable. These companies seem to be the exception and not the norm.

Most turntables manufacturers do not mandate a specific arm into the table as a package forcing the buyer to purchase them together. When they do, it is the decision of the manufacturer to offer the package and the customer to buy it. The package often comes with a reduced price compared to the table and arm being purchased separately. That is an advantage if the customer likes the combination, not a disadvantage. Just like with electronics, the customer is usually free to mix and match components. I believe all SME turntables are offered without arms at a reduced price, so no one is forced into buying what you consider to be a known negative tonearm.

 

[ddk]

David, I don't know all the answers, but I will try to answer your question based on my experience. Regarding a table like my SME 30/12, space for a second arm would have three distinct disadvantages: weight, cost, and size. I have spoken to an SME dealer about this, and he told me that there are reasons that SME has never designed a table which can support two arms. That may or may not change with the new owners. Depending on the design, some cantilevered armboards which may offer increased flexibility for arm length, may not be as rigid or solidly mounted on a plinth as a non cantilevered arm board. The second armboard on the back of the TechDAS AF1 comes to mind. Why are the two different? My guess is because of size. I don't know if they sound identical, but I would doubt it. Here are some more: complexity, increased surface area which may be an issue with airborne vibrations, the need for a different, larger, sturdier rack.

Come on Peter none of this is true, we have very successful well known multi-armed designs going back to the late 50's and steadily since the 60's many of them with smaller footprint than your SME. I guarantee you rigidity isn't an issue and there's no added complexity, if anything mounting arms on cantilevered open armboards is a lot simpler than ones where you have to route the phono wires through a maze. All tt's benefit from sturdier foundations !

The AF-1's armboards sound identical they're made the same just different mounting style there's no disadvantages to options any way you look at it, the SME is simply a different concept and not designed to hold more than one, that's all.

I understand that these may all be considered acceptable trade offs for the added flexibility they provide, but that is up to the designer and customer to decide. If there were no disadvantages with increased flexibility and upgradeability, I would think that all turntables would be designed to accommodate four 9-12" arms and be upgradable. They are not. Brinkmann, TW Akustic, and a few others offer multiple arms. VPI, Kronos and a few others are upgradeable. These companies seem to be the exception and not the norm.

There are many more than the ones you mentioned above, like any other commodity each company will design what they find profitable or within their realm of competence.

Most turntables manufacturers do not mandate a specific arm into the table as a package forcing the buyer to purchase them together. When they do, it is the decision of the manufacturer to offer the package and the customer to buy it. The package often comes with a reduced price compared to the table and arm being purchased separately. That is an advantage if the customer likes the combination, not a disadvantage. Just like with electronics, the customer is usually free to mix and match components. I believe all SME turntables are offered without arms at a reduced price, so no one is forced into buying what you consider to be a known negative tonearm.

I have no problem with people buying whatever they want and you can just as easily package a tonearm with any tt.

david

 

[bonzo75]

TTs with multiple tonearms

 

[PeterA]

Come on Peter none of this is true, we have very successful well known multi-armed designs going back to the late 50's and steadily since the 60's many of them with smaller footprint than your SME. I guarantee you rigidity isn't an issue and there's no added complexity, if anything mounting arms on cantilevered open armboards is a lot simpler than ones where you have to route the phono wires through a maze. All tt's benefit from sturdier foundations !

The AF-1's armboards sound identical they're made the same just different mounting style there's no disadvantages to options any way you look at it, the SME is simply a different concept and not designed to hold more than one, that's all.



There are many more than the ones you mentioned above, like any other commodity each company will design what they find profitable or within their realm of competence.



I have no problem with people buying whatever they want and you can just as easily package a tonearm with any tt.

david

David, I just think we disagree about this. You wrote that SME locks one into buying an inferior arm. I wrote that they sell the table without the arm, not locking the buyer into anything. You wrote that there are no disadvantages to added flexibility and multi arm options. I gave you a specific example of three disadvantages with the SME 30/12: weight, cost, and size. You are free to think that none of that is true.

I have thought a few times about what it would be like to own two identical arms with either the same arm cartridges but with different VTA settings for different LPs, one with a mono cartridge and one with a stereo cartridge, or simply with two different stereo cartridges. If SME offered two arm 30/12, given my set budget, I would certainly have to go down in the line and buy a less expensive, and inferior sounding SME table to afford two arms, two cartridges, two cables, and a phono with two inputs. This is the kind of tradeoff that many, but not all, audiophile might have to consider: sonics versus flexibility for a given price point.

I do not think the types of turntables that Gary is considering can or should be thought of as commodities, nor do I think that the manufacturers of this level of turntable are not competent to design options prioritizing flexibility and multiple arms. I believe they choose to not design or offer them for reasons other than competence.

In the end, the market sets the rules. If there were truly no disadvantages, I would think many more, if not all, turntables would be designed as you suggest? Yet, we see that not all turntables have flexibility and options for multiple arms. Some people want them, others do not, and I would suggest there are reasons. We will see which turntable Gary decides to buy from this list and for what reasons. He may well take your advice and choose the Raven.

 

[pcosta]

When I bought the TW my intention was purely for financial reasons. I was one of the early adopters of the TW and bought it before all the options that are available now and the price was much better then. I heard it at High Water Sound back then and was very impressed. I went there in search of a preamp and came away with a TT and preamp. I was able to sell the SME and now afford both pieces.
I was not able to do a side by side comparison, and I don't want to get into the sonic differences. I have spilled those beans on Audiogon if you want to search them out.

Now back to the TW. It is a very stable performer. Once setup I just check the speed to flatter myself. It never drifts. It doesn't need any special platforms to put it, I have been there done that. I bought the TW more on its sonic merit and looks which really appealed to me then and now. It was with the plain black copper topped platter and single motor, which I have to this day. My intention was not to buy it for it multiple arms, I just ended up going down that road because it was easier and more fun. I still have a custom armboard for a SME 30 drilled for a Tri-Planar that was an expensive chore to make. Currently my TW has two arms mounted and soon I will have a third. It is the best way IMO to do it. Now you have one platform with one table and multiple options, certainly much more convenient than multiple tables. Certainly all those tables on the list have sonic merit, but with this hobby I like my options. I have discovered the SME 3012R thanks to David, I now see the appeal with Ortofon SPU's and the appeal of a mono cartridge, all mounted and ready to go.

 

[bonzo75]

What are your current arms and carts, and what are you planning

 

[pcosta]

TW 10.5 arm with either MOFI/Miyabi or Dynavector XV-1s
SME 3012R with either Kondo IO-M or Ortofon SPU 90th
EMT 997 with OFD 15i mono

As far as other arms and carts don't know but something might come along that interests me.

 

[Bruce B]

David, I just think we disagree about this. You wrote that SME locks one into buying an inferior arm. I wrote that they sell the table without the arm, not locking the buyer into anything. You wrote that there are no disadvantages to added flexibility and multi arm options. I gave you a specific example of three disadvantages with the SME 30/12: weight, cost, and size. You are free to think that none of that is true.

I totally concur