Please offer your tube advice / observations on 12AX7's and ECC83's

[treitz3]

Good afternoon, ladies and gentlemen of the forum. A sad day has arrived for me in my audio journey .

For years, I have thoroughly enjoyed my oooooooh so-good-sounding 12AX7 Ei Gold Pins. Recently, I am noticing artifacts and distortion [however slight] in my audio playback. Alas, it is the tubes in my CDP. I do believe they have reached the end of their useful life. At this point they still sound good......but no longer sound great. I have and have tried various other tubes in the CDP and nothing really compares to the overall pleasure I get with the Ei Gold Pin. Some tubes offer a sweeter perception of air but at the expense of tinny treble and slight loss of bass. Some tubes offer a midrange to die for but with a complete loss of natural roll off of many instruments or an altered frequency spectrum. I basically haven't found any other tube that offers me the entire package I get with the Ei Gold Pins. Problem is, nobody wants to sell theirs and they are out of production. That basically means I have no other choice at this point but to start looking for an acceptable substitute.

A buddy of mine suggested that maybe I should just consider getting the same tube, without the gold pins. Well, I have found some and I am presented with an option. I can acquire them in a nickle plate or a grey plate. The nickle plate is a little bit more expensive [not a concern] but I am unsure as to the sonic signature changing between the two and changing for the worse. I don't believe I have ever heard a nickle plate tube [it's possible but I can assure you that I was unaware of it at the time]. Both offerings were manufactured with Telefunken machinery and both are also smooth plates. I am open to any advice or observations that anybody has had with these Ei ECC83's.

One other option I have been thinking about is the EAT Cool Valve ECC-803S [Diamond Series]. At $225.00 a pop, I'd like to hear or read of some observations from those who have heard it [Not from the manufacturers] before I go and blow that kind of dough on something I may not like. The EAT tube is a gold pin and comes with the Cool Valve tube damper/isolators. Apparently, this tube is not a NOS tube. It was built to emulate the rare and very expensive Telefunken 803 and is "claiming" to have bested it. If any one of you have had some observations with the EAT ECC-803S, I'm all ears and willing to absorb what you have to offer.

Whatever advice or observations I get, I pray it's worth it because in approximately 1 year give or take? I'll have 4 more Ei Gold pins to replace as well. Those are in my Dodd Audio MLP pre-amplifier.

May the audio God's bless this thread....*prays*. Thanks for taking the time to read this and any opinion, no matter how small or trivial is welcome.

Tom

 

[MylesBAstor]

Good afternoon, ladies and gentlemen of the forum. A sad day has arrived for me in my audio journey .

For years, I have thoroughly enjoyed my oooooooh so-good-sounding 12AX7 Ei Gold Pins. Recently, I am noticing artifacts and distortion [however slight] in my audio playback. Alas, it is the tubes in my CDP. I do believe they have reached the end of their useful life. At this point they still sound good......but no longer sound great. I have and have tried various other tubes in the CDP and nothing really compares to the overall pleasure I get with the Ei Gold Pin. Some tubes offer a sweeter perception of air but at the expense of tinny treble and slight loss of bass. Some tubes offer a midrange to die for but with a complete loss of natural roll off of many instruments or an altered frequency spectrum. I basically haven't found any other tube that offers me the entire package I get with the Ei Gold Pins. Problem is, nobody wants to sell theirs and they are out of production. That basically means I have no other choice at this point but to start looking for an acceptable substitute.

A buddy of mine suggested that maybe I should just consider getting the same tube, without the gold pins. Well, I have found some and I am presented with an option. I can acquire them in a nickle plate or a grey plate. The nickle plate is a little bit more expensive [not a concern] but I am unsure as to the sonic signature changing between the two and changing for the worse. I don't believe I have ever heard a nickle plate tube [it's possible but I can assure you that I was unaware of it at the time]. Both offerings were manufactured with Telefunken machinery and both are also smooth plates. I am open to any advice or observations that anybody has had with these Ei ECC83's.

One other option I have been thinking about is the EAT Cool Valve ECC-803S [Diamond Series]. At $225.00 a pop, I'd like to hear or read of some observations from those who have heard it [Not from the manufacturers] before I go and blow that kind of dough on something I may not like. The EAT tube is a gold pin and comes with the Cool Valve tube damper/isolators. Apparently, this tube is not a NOS tube. It was built to emulate the rare and very expensive Telefunken 803 and is "claiming" to have bested it. If any one of you have had some observations with the EAT ECC-803S, I'm all ears and willing to absorb what you have to offer.

Whatever advice or observations I get, I pray it's worth it because in approximately 1 year give or take? I'll have 4 more Ei Gold pins to replace as well. Those are in my Dodd Audio MLP pre-amplifier.

May the audio God's bless this thread....*prays*. Thanks for taking the time to read this and any opinion, no matter how small or trivial is welcome.

Tom

I think the Grey plate Eis are a little older vintage than the nickel plates. And usually the older vintage tubes sound the best. Probably the older Ei tubes are the ones made for other companies and labelled Edicron, etc.are worth hunting down. I also seem to remember thiat tube depot or the tube store now stock some Eis for around $50 each.

And yes when they go and the Eis do at different rates,, you'll hear distortion, they'll get noisy (finding quiet ones is a chore), etc. I've found Eis in particular often have one microphonic and one good triode.

If you like Eis then you may not like the EATs. I think the EATs are a little less romantic than the Eis. That said, the last Eis I tried had absolutely no bass.

One tube you may want to consider that won't cost you an arm and a leg are the reissued Tungsols. They are well balanced from top to bottom and aren't edgy. Upscale sells the premium platinum for $25/each. I can't recommend the JJs since they don't seem to last.

 

[LL21]

You may wish to call Brent Jessee. +1-847-496-4546 brentjes@audiotubes.com I have bought well over a dozen (expensive) NOS tubes from him...all great, and in a few cases where something happened, he always made good to replace them immediately. And he really knows his tubes and is very helpful over the phone. No affiliation...just always happy to share good experiences with fellow members.

 

[Bill Hart]

I don't really know the Ei tube, but just read that it is modelled on -and indeed may have used to old tooling from- a vintage tele tube. have you ever tried the NOS tele? I haven't researched prices but a quick glance at a place like tubeworld (not dissing Brent Jesse, i just find his website makes me psychotic)- shows nos smooth plate teles of the type your favorite tube was modelled after appear to be cheaper than the EATs. The nice thing about brendan is you can return the tubes with a modest repacking charge as long as you don't muck them up.

 

[LL21]

I haven't researched prices but a quick glance at a place like tubeworld (not dissing Brent Jesse, i just find his website makes me psychotic)- shows nos smooth plate teles of the type your favorite tube was modelled after appear to be cheaper than the EATs. The nice thing about brendan is you can return the tubes with a modest repacking charge as long as you don't muck them up.

Yes, agree...Brent is 'old school'...perhaps like his tools...and his website reads like the yellow pages...just a super long list of tubes after tubes after tubes...but when you talk to him...he listens to what you want in sound and gives you your options in your price bracket.

 

[MylesBAstor]

I don't really know the Ei tube, but just read that it is modelled on -and indeed may have used to old tooling from- a vintage tele tube. have you ever tried the NOS tele? I haven't researched prices but a quick glance at a place like tubeworld (not dissing Brent Jesse, i just find his website makes me psychotic)- shows nos smooth plate teles of the type your favorite tube was modelled after appear to be cheaper than the EATs. The nice thing about brendan is you can return the tubes with a modest repacking charge as long as you don't muck them up.

Problem isn't as much the machinery as it was/is getting the same materials such as the cathode coating, tube pin wire materials and Su containing Fe. From what I've read the cathode coating on the new Russian tubes aren't what they should be.

Also Andy at Vintage Tube Services is a great source of knowledge and tubes. Another great source is TubeMuseum on eBay.

 

[flez007]

I bought many 12ax7 tubes with a friend an played for over six months or so to learn of audible differences between them, I had a Jadis DA60 back then - for that amp and for these ears NOS Telefunkens were the best sounding ones. The Amperex were not bad but dry-sounding in comparison.

 

[Mendel]

Good afternoon, ladies and gentlemen of the forum. A sad day has arrived for me in my audio journey .

For years, I have thoroughly enjoyed my oooooooh so-good-sounding 12AX7 Ei Gold Pins. Recently, I am noticing artifacts and distortion [however slight] in my audio playback. Alas, it is the tubes in my CDP. I do believe they have reached the end of their useful life. At this point they still sound good......but no longer sound great. I have and have tried various other tubes in the CDP and nothing really compares to the overall pleasure I get with the Ei Gold Pin. Some tubes offer a sweeter perception of air but at the expense of tinny treble and slight loss of bass. Some tubes offer a midrange to die for but with a complete loss of natural roll off of many instruments or an altered frequency spectrum. I basically haven't found any other tube that offers me the entire package I get with the Ei Gold Pins. Problem is, nobody wants to sell theirs and they are out of production. That basically means I have no other choice at this point but to start looking for an acceptable substitute.

A buddy of mine suggested that maybe I should just consider getting the same tube, without the gold pins. Well, I have found some and I am presented with an option. I can acquire them in a nickle plate or a grey plate. The nickle plate is a little bit more expensive [not a concern] but I am unsure as to the sonic signature changing between the two and changing for the worse. I don't believe I have ever heard a nickle plate tube [it's possible but I can assure you that I was unaware of it at the time]. Both offerings were manufactured with Telefunken machinery and both are also smooth plates. I am open to any advice or observations that anybody has had with these Ei ECC83's.

One other option I have been thinking about is the EAT Cool Valve ECC-803S [Diamond Series]. At $225.00 a pop, I'd like to hear or read of some observations from those who have heard it [Not from the manufacturers] before I go and blow that kind of dough on something I may not like. The EAT tube is a gold pin and comes with the Cool Valve tube damper/isolators. Apparently, this tube is not a NOS tube. It was built to emulate the rare and very expensive Telefunken 803 and is "claiming" to have bested it. If any one of you have had some observations with the EAT ECC-803S, I'm all ears and willing to absorb what you have to offer.

Whatever advice or observations I get, I pray it's worth it because in approximately 1 year give or take? I'll have 4 more Ei Gold pins to replace as well. Those are in my Dodd Audio MLP pre-amplifier.

May the audio God's bless this thread....*prays*. Thanks for taking the time to read this and any opinion, no matter how small or trivial is welcome.

Tom

Well tube selection is very personal and depends on the listener's priorities and the gear (circuit) the tube is used in. Personally, I was never a big fan of the Ei's in my amp finding them a little soft and unextended at the top and bottom, with a very nice midrange. Kind of like a Mullard 12ax7 more than the Telefunken that they were supposedly modeled after. I have no experience with the EAT tube, but for that money you can have your pick of just about any NOS type that you want. Unfortunately, you are just going to have to try different tubes to find the sound that you are looking for. No one else has your same equipment and same listening tastes. I can recommend some very good sounding tubes for you to try:
Telefunken 12ax7 (smooth and ribbed plate)--very extended, clear, a little foward not rich
Mullard 12ax7 short plate---very rich midrange, not very extended, sweet (too much for me)
Raytheon 12ax7 blackplates---rich midrange, good bass, sweet top end
Sylvania long grey plates----very neutral, not overly rich, not the quietest tubes
Matshushita 12ax7 tilted getter---very extended, clear, similar to a Tele
Amperex/Phillips/Valvo 12ax7 I65 code---sweet, sunny sounding, good extension, not foward
Valvo 12ax7 tilted getter D60 code---made in Hamberg, sweet, extended, rich midrange, one of the best
Siemens long plate 12ax7---rich but extended at both ends, getting rare
Tung Sol 12ax7 square getter--vivid, airy and extended, not the richest midrange
Also you might want to try a 5751 in your CDP. Raytheon, Sylvania and GE blackplates are the first choice, but some prefer any 5751 to any 12ax7 so you never know until you try.
Good luck in your search.

 

[Bill Hart]

Well tube selection is very personal and depends on the listener's priorities and the gear (circuit) the tube is used in. Personally, I was never a big fan of the Ei's in my amp finding them a little soft and unextended at the top and bottom, with a very nice midrange. Kind of like a Mullard 12ax7 more than the Telefunken that they were supposedly modeled after. I have no experience with the EAT tube, but for that money you can have your pick of just about any NOS type that you want. Unfortunately, you are just going to have to try different tubes to find the sound that you are looking for. No one else has your same equipment and same listening tastes. I can recommend some very good sounding tubes for you to try:
Telefunken 12ax7 (smooth and ribbed plate)--very extended, clear, a little foward not rich
Mullard 12ax7 short plate---very rich midrange, not very extended, sweet (too much for me)
Raytheon 12ax7 blackplates---rich midrange, good bass, sweet top end
Sylvania long grey plates----very neutral, not overly rich, not the quietest tubes
Matshushita 12ax7 tilted getter---very extended, clear, similar to a Tele
Amperex/Phillips/Valvo 12ax7 I65 code---sweet, sunny sounding, good extension, not foward
Valvo 12ax7 tilted getter D60 code---made in Hamberg, sweet, extended, rich midrange, one of the best
Siemens long plate 12ax7---rich but extended at both ends, getting rare
Tung Sol 12ax7 square getter--vivid, airy and extended, not the richest midrange
Also you might want to try a 5751 in your CDP. Raytheon, Sylvania and GE blackplates are the first choice, but some prefer any 5751 to any 12ax7 so you never know until you try.
Good luck in your search.

Great post! I always find these tube comparisons of NOS helpful, even if some results may be circuit-dependent. I think the Valvo is pretty scarce, no? I also remember, in the 6922 world, that pinched waist Amperex were considered grails, but never heard one. I have had experience with the ribbed NOS tele 12A tube and like it in my system (using it in the Lamm ML 2 amp currently).

PS i don't know if it is possible that the characteristics you describe for the 12AX7 apply to 6922 types from the same manufacturer, but my take on the Mullards was the same, too euphonic, and I found the Siemens to be very linear and extended but rather flat and uninvolving sounding, and not as holographic sounding as the Tele in my old phono stage.

 

[MylesBAstor]

Well tube selection is very personal and depends on the listener's priorities and the gear (circuit) the tube is used in. Personally, I was never a big fan of the Ei's in my amp finding them a little soft and unextended at the top and bottom, with a very nice midrange. Kind of like a Mullard 12ax7 more than the Telefunken that they were supposedly modeled after. I have no experience with the EAT tube, but for that money you can have your pick of just about any NOS type that you want. Unfortunately, you are just going to have to try different tubes to find the sound that you are looking for. No one else has your same equipment and same listening tastes. I can recommend some very good sounding tubes for you to try:
Telefunken 12ax7 (smooth and ribbed plate)--very extended, clear, a little foward not rich
Mullard 12ax7 short plate---very rich midrange, not very extended, sweet (too much for me)
Raytheon 12ax7 blackplates---rich midrange, good bass, sweet top end
Sylvania long grey plates----very neutral, not overly rich, not the quietest tubes
Matshushita 12ax7 tilted getter---very extended, clear, similar to a Tele
Amperex/Phillips/Valvo 12ax7 I65 code---sweet, sunny sounding, good extension, not foward
Valvo 12ax7 tilted getter D60 code---made in Hamberg, sweet, extended, rich midrange, one of the best
Siemens long plate 12ax7---rich but extended at both ends, getting rare
Tung Sol 12ax7 square getter--vivid, airy and extended, not the richest midrange
Also you might want to try a 5751 in your CDP. Raytheon, Sylvania and GE blackplates are the first choice, but some prefer any 5751 to any 12ax7 so you never know until you try.
Good luck in your search.

I'd add a cautionary note about swapping 5751s for 12AX7s in the circuit. They're not always a drop in substitute so would always check with manufacturer before trying.

 

[Mendel]

Great post! I always find these tube comparisons of NOS helpful, even if some results may be circuit-dependent. I think the Valvo is pretty scarce, no? I also remember, in the 6922 world, that pinched waist Amperex were considered grails, but never heard one. I have had experience with the ribbed NOS tele 12A tube and like it in my system (using it in the Lamm ML 2 amp currently).

PS i don't know if it is possible that the characteristics you describe for the 12AX7 apply to 6922 types from the same manufacturer, but my take on the Mullards was the same, too euphonic, and I found the Siemens to be very linear and extended but rather flat and uninvolving sounding, and not as holographic sounding as the Tele in my old phono stage.

Thanks for the kind words. Yes the Valvo D60's have become very rare, with pairs going for well over $100 on e-bay. I was very lucky to get three from a hamfest tube dealer a few years ago for a very good price. IMO the pinch waist amperex 6922 is the best of that tube type and I currently use it in my phono stage. I have found that often (but not always!) the characteristics of a manufacturers tubes are common across the different types as you describe.
As Myles mentions, you should check with the manufacturer before substituting 5751 for 12ax7. However, in my experience the sub is always OK and the sound can be quite different (and in many cases better).

 

[JackD201]

Hi Tom

Lookie here

http://www.chelmervalve.com/TBC/12AX7E EI ELITE/115395

 

[treitz3]

Oh, dang! Thanks, man . I will contact them now. I don't recall ever running across that supplier before.

Since this may not work out [we'll see and I'm crossing my fingers], please keep any comments and/or suggestions coming. Thanks to all of those who have allowed me to pick at their brain for a little bit more knowledge base on mine. It is much appreciated. Some of the suggestions were really good. More later.

Tom

 

[JackD201]

I hope the Ei Elites are indeed the same as your fave Ei Goldpins. I've transacted with Chelmers before, straightforward, no drama. Good luck man, Happy hunting!