Power Conditioners

[Mobiusman]

Like most of us on this site I have obsessed about various aspects of my numerous sound systems during the past 55 years (started when I was 7). I have also spent thousands of dollars for improvements that did not materialize or faded with familiarity. I love a great sound system, but have come to be disgusted by many aspects of the hobby, especially the BS factor, the marketing hype and the general lack of truthfulness. Nowhere is this problem worse than with cables and power products, although I do not want to throw out the baby with the bath water, if there is a baby in there somewhere.

Put simply, all I want is a system that can basically fool me into thinking that "I am there", at a price that is reasonable with pieces that justify their presence and cost. I realize that this desire is not novel and somewhat elusive and certainly subject to personal taste. However, physics is physics and we are playing with electricity in this game and thus would love to open a thread that tries to deal with the fundamentals so that each of us has as clean a foundation as possible upon which to base our personal preferences.

So this brings me to power conditioners and the power cables that connect them to equipment and the interconnects and speaker wire that connect the equipment to each other. At this point there is little question that modern day power has noise unless you generate your own and nothing else is connected to add noise-although many would contend that regeneration units add their own type of colorations. It makes sense, based on physics, that any noise that "rides" on the sine wave of power will in some way affect the end result, but the question is how and to what extent, AND more importantly how to deal with it.

As I try to put together a totally new system for a new environment (Thank you Sandy once again) I am looking at how to spend my money wisely and try to keep the system as simple as possible. Since I have always loved electrostatics I have decided to return to them and thus will be adding an additional level of electrical complexity to my system as I try to generate that elusive pseudo reality. Fortunately I am able to spend several thousand dollars on components that I deem worthwhile, even ones without knobs or glowing faceplates. As someone who values power and subwoofers, I also can draw some significant current during crescendos and/or while playing air guitar.

During the last year and especially the last 2 months, I have tried to learn what I can about power conditioners and the different design approaches. I am pretty sure that I do not want a big transformer based unit because of the inherent lags in most transformers and my love of crisp transients that emulate what happens in nature. I am particularly interested in the offerings from Shunyata, because they make sense to my level of understanding of power and physics and because I heard a demo at CES with their Zitron technology that was quite impressive.

I am hoping that this thread will have those from the engineering world chime in as much as those from the pure audio world.

 

[FrantzM]

Mobiusman


Please do read this POST by Nyal Melior .

 

[Mobiusman]

I read Nyal's post and it makes sense and offers new information, but it is not the main question I was trying to put forth, namely the pro's and cons of power conditioners in general and specific designs in particular. I am intrigued by the Shunyata Talon concept as well as their Zitron technology and trying to learn more.

 

[Ethan Winer]

all I want is a system that can basically fool me into thinking that "I am there" ... we are playing with electricity in this game

Yes, it's all electricity, which is easily measured. This has been discussed many times in this forum, so I'll just hit the high points. The realism you seek has nothing to do with electricity. Audio gear merely needs to pass "electricity" accurately to the speakers, and even modest gear does that perfectly well. Do you find listening through headphones more enveloping and realistic than your speakers? If so, that proves the issue is the acoustics of your room, not "power" issues. And if you don't find music through headphones realistic, then you can blame the recording engineers for their choice of microphone placement.

It makes sense, based on physics, that any noise that "rides" on the sine wave of power will in some way affect the end result, but the question is how and to what extent, AND more importantly how to deal with it.

You understand perfectly - the only issue is "to what extent." All competent audio gear rejects normal amounts of noise riding on the power line. So this is a non-issue, which is easily proven with simple noise measurements at the output of your power amp. If the noise is the same with and without a "power" product in place, and it should be, that proves such products offer no audible improvement.

So if you're hoping for improved realism from a "power" product, I'd say you're looking in all the wrong places.

--Ethan

 

[TBone]

My system uses many PL.Conditioners (5 total, 4 dedicated, 1 main). The dedicated approach was chosen based on certain components that create noise within a system, such as components with pulse based power supplies. With a dedicated approach, not only are you isolating the main, but the system from itself.

But it didn't stop there, I soon realized that floating certain components via dedicated conditioning plus incorporating a "star" grounding scheme ... became just as critical to achieving superb noise floor characteristics.

tb1

 

[microstrip]

(...) I am particularly interested in the offerings from Shunyata, because they make sense to my level of understanding of power and physics and because I heard a demo at CES with their Zitron technology that was quite impressive.

I am hoping that this thread will have those from the engineering world chime in as much as those from the pure audio world.

Mobiusman,

All my current power conditioning and power cables are from Shunyata. I know what they do in my system and also consider them impressive. But in all fairness, my understanding of power and physics has not found a single sentence in their descriptions that could correlate with the sound improvements I feel in my system. Can I ask what are you referring to?

 

[Shaffer]

I don't have a single power conditioner in my system. Where do I go to turn-in my audiophile membership card?

 

[Speedskater]

I would like to point out that "Power Conditioning" has no universally accepted definition.

For a start, "power conditioner" is a vague term.
It may mean any combination of:

Interference filter
Surge protection
Automatic line voltage adjustment
Isolation Transformer
UPS (Uninterruptible Power Supply) and this term has different meanings.
Balanced AC line power

 

[Mobiusman]

Pardon my likely ignorance, but it is my understanding that electrical noise that rides on sine wave will in fact all the sound of equipment that uses this as a power source.

Mobiusman,

All my current power conditioning and power cables are from Shunyata. I know what they do in my system and also consider them impressive. But in all fairness, my understanding of power and physics has not found a single sentence in their descriptions that could correlate with the sound improvements I feel in my system. Can I ask what are you referring to?

 

[Mobiusman]

Maybe I have done a poor job of stating my question.

Put simply, like most on this site, I am trying to get the most realistic sound for my dollars. I am trying to gain information from other members on this site if they have found benefits from power conditioners that might be reproduced in my system. I have heard a number of demo's, especially the Shunyata demo that seemed to make a positive difference and I am looking to learn if people have had similar benefits in their systems.

Quite frankly, I do not care about the theory, so pardon me if I have misstated something. What I care about when all is said and done is the pleasure I derive from my system and how to maximize it.

 

[Andre Marc]

Like most of us on this site I have obsessed about various aspects of my numerous sound systems during the past 55 years (started when I was 7). I have also spent thousands of dollars for improvements that did not materialize or faded with familiarity. I love a great sound system, but have come to be disgusted by many aspects of the hobby, especially the BS factor, the marketing hype and the general lack of truthfulness. Nowhere is this problem worse than with cables and power products, although I do not want to throw out the baby with the bath water, if there is a baby in there somewhere.

Put simply, all I want is a system that can basically fool me into thinking that "I am there", at a price that is reasonable with pieces that justify their presence and cost. I realize that this desire is not novel and somewhat elusive and certainly subject to personal taste. However, physics is physics and we are playing with electricity in this game and thus would love to open a thread that tries to deal with the fundamentals so that each of us has as clean a foundation as possible upon which to base our personal preferences.

So this brings me to power conditioners and the power cables that connect them to equipment and the interconnects and speaker wire that connect the equipment to each other. At this point there is little question that modern day power has noise unless you generate your own and nothing else is connected to add noise-although many would contend that regeneration units add their own type of colorations. It makes sense, based on physics, that any noise that "rides" on the sine wave of power will in some way affect the end result, but the question is how and to what extent, AND more importantly how to deal with it.

As I try to put together a totally new system for a new environment (Thank you Sandy once again) I am looking at how to spend my money wisely and try to keep the system as simple as possible. Since I have always loved electrostatics I have decided to return to them and thus will be adding an additional level of electrical complexity to my system as I try to generate that elusive pseudo reality. Fortunately I am able to spend several thousand dollars on components that I deem worthwhile, even ones without knobs or glowing faceplates. As someone who values power and subwoofers, I also can draw some significant current during crescendos and/or while playing air guitar.

During the last year and especially the last 2 months, I have tried to learn what I can about power conditioners and the different design approaches. I am pretty sure that I do not want a big transformer based unit because of the inherent lags in most transformers and my love of crisp transients that emulate what happens in nature. I am particularly interested in the offerings from Shunyata, because they make sense to my level of understanding of power and physics and because I heard a demo at CES with their Zitron technology that was quite impressive.

I am hoping that this thread will have those from the engineering world chime in as much as those from the pure audio world.

I highly recommend Audience. An adeptResponse aR6 transformed my system. I also recently reviewed and purchased the smaller aR2p.

They are beautifully built, use high grade parts, and come with an extended warranty. Most importantly, they work.

The reviews are available on my website: www.servingthemusic.com...under Cables & Accessories.

 

[MadFloyd]

I am pretty sure that I do not want a big transformer based unit because of the inherent lags in most transformers and my love of crisp transients that emulate what happens in nature.

Huh? So the Equi=tech and Torus products can produce lag in transients???

 

[microstrip]

Put simply, like most on this site, I am trying to get the most realistic sound for my dollars. I am trying to gain information from other members on this site if they have found benefits from power conditioners that might be reproduced in my system. I have heard a number of demo's, especially the Shunyata demo that seemed to make a positive difference and I am looking to learn if people have had similar benefits in their systems.

Quite frankly, I do not care about the theory, so pardon me if I have misstated something. What I care about when all is said and done is the pleasure I derive from my system and how to maximize it.

+1!
The better my system is becoming and my audio knowledge increases more guilty I feel of assembling a system mostly empirically.

 

[Nyal Mellor]

Put simply, like most on this site, I am trying to get the most realistic sound for my dollars. I am trying to gain information from other members on this site if they have found benefits from power conditioners that might be reproduced in my system. I have heard a number of demo's, especially the Shunyata demo that seemed to make a positive difference and I am looking to learn if people have had similar benefits in their systems.

Quite frankly, I do not care about the theory, so pardon me if I have misstated something. What I care about when all is said and done is the pleasure I derive from my system and how to maximize it.

Yes, there are definitely audible benefits from some power conditioners.

Best is to get a demo of the top contenders in your own system, then you can judge for yourself.

To be thorough you'd want to demo:
- power regeneration e.g. PS Audio
- isolation transformers e.g. Torus
- passive conditioners e.g. Shunyata

Each has their pros and cons. Personally I am not convinced by power regeneration in terms of reliability (PS Audio, who at last inquiry were still having whole number percentage failure rates on their units), cost of maintenance (the computer grade online dual conversion UPS systems where batteries must be replaced) and ability to deliver current. Passive conditioners can be good (and there are lots of well reviewed units out there) but for me isolation transformers have more plus points. Of course you can cascade these technologies. There is nothing to stop you running a passive conditioner off a isolation transformer plugged into a dual conversion online UPS. Another reason for power conditioning is not for performance improvement but for equipment protection. In this area there is only one technology (series mode surge suppression) which makes sense to me when used close to point of use. Shunt mode products tend to include Metal Oxide Varistors (MOV) which have a number of issues including inducement of ground leakage current and potential for failure. The above just to highlight that there might be more that goes into a buying decision than just what level of audible improvement it offers.

 

[kleinbje]

I like you was also a skeptic about power. I purchased a Running Springs Dmitri and added it to my system. It made a totally positive and dramatic improvement. It still is hard to believe, every time friends or family come over to listen, I play them a record with and without the dmitri, its unanimously preferred. Trust me a couple of those friends would jump at the chance to rib me for getting snake oil. I originally bought it with a plain black power cord, not only did my wallet need a breather, but I really didn't think a high end Power conditioner should need a fancy chord, as it should be cleaning the power it gets. After reading on some forums about the improvements a chord would make , I found that Music direct has a 30 day home trial on their power chords(I'm sure other good sellers do too), I first tried a low end Shunyata Diamond Back Platinum, I hated it, the original king kord brand sounded much better. It sucked the life out of the music. I then tried a Zitron Viper which increased soundstage and background blackness, but still seemed to take the groove out of the music. I eventually tried a Zitron Cobra and it made a dramatic difference. It was a true component upgrade. I would recommend you in home trial a power conditioner. If you don't hear the difference, or prefer the difference your only out shipping. I will never go without one again. My system is that much better. Any members in the West Hartford area are welcome to hear.
That is my opinion after quite a bit of research and listening. One last thing, I chose RSA because there credo is to not alter the sound, I found shunyata rolled treble and some bass. It created sort of an airbrushed sound if that makes any sense. That being said the zitron cobra seems pretty neutral so far.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

Huh? So the Equi=tech and Torus products can produce lag in transients???

easy to prove or disprove.

in my case i can quicky move the power cord from the Equi=tech outlet to the conventional 'dirty' outlet right next to it. and it's not close; easy to hear improvement of transient snap, dynamic contrast, and impact with the Equi=tech.

i can do it with an amp or source with the same result.

i've done it a number of times.

next question.

 

[microstrip]

easy to prove or disprove.

in my case i can quicky move the power cord from the Equi=tech outlet to the conventional 'dirty' outlet right next to it. and it's not close; easy to hear improvement of transient snap, dynamic contrast, and impact with the Equi=tech.

i can do it with an amp or source with the same result.

i've done it a number of times.

next question.

Mike,

Did you use science quality ear plugs when testing for impact?

 

[Mike Lavigne]

Mike,

Did you use science quality ear plugs when testing for impact?

you betcha!